From Timid to Powerful: Transforming Technical Experts into Confident Speakers with Mark Robinson

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Do technical experts make the best speakers?

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Not always, but with the

right support they can.

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And in this episode of Present Influence,

I'm joined by speaking coach and

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presentation skills expert, Mark Robinson.

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Mark specializes in helping tech

professionals and senior leaders.

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Transform complex content into clear,

confident, and compelling communication.

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Mark shares the secrets behind

making your message memorable.

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How to avoid detail overload and

why storytelling practice and

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authentic delivery are essential

even for the most analytical minds.

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We also dive into stage presence,

star moments, and why it's not about

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being flashy, but about being heard.

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If you've ever felt like your

message gets lost in translation,

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or you want to help your team speak

with more clarity and impact, this

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conversation is very much for you.

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Welcome to Present Influence, the

Professional Speaking Show for

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speakers and communicators who want

to impact, influence, and inspire.

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My name's John Ball, your guide

on this journey to mastery

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level communication skills.

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I think it's a great privilege for me

today to be able to welcome my guest who

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is undoubtedly an expert in speaking.

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Lemme welcome, Mark Robinson.

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Mark Robinson: Thank John and

it's, an honor to be here.

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I've seen some of your previous

episodes, the speakers, the guests,

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you've on pretty awesome lineup,

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John: I do pretty well for guests.

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Thank you.

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You for our audience, just say a

little bit about, the kind of training

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and work that you do at the moment.

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Mark Robinson: My background,

first of all is in it.

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So most of my customers are technical

people, and what I do typically to.

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Where I give people practical tips that

they can immediately implement everything

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from, thinking of your goal, getting

that clear, preparing how you start,

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how you structure, how you end, how

you can have more confidence, how you

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can add storytelling, how you can use

PowerPoint and what you shouldn't do,

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how you can do online presenting, and

how you can make sure your presentation

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is something which is memorable.

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That years later people will say, oh,

that's, that was that presentation.

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John: I think you, summed that

up very well, and just to get a

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better of an understanding of that,

so you work mostly with people in

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technical spaces for that training.

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Why, why is it that they particularly

need that and, where, where are they

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gonna be using and applying that?

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Mark Robinson: Mostly they apply it

in their work environments when they

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speak at conferences, in the last couple

of weeks I've trained, two CEOs, one

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who was, presenting to her company,

and another one who was pitching for

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a large in multimillion investment.

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John: Why do they need this training?

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Mark Robinson: technical people

tend to love, the details and the

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products, but they're not necessarily

great at understanding the audiences.

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And so they tend to just go into

lots, lots of detail, rather

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than getting to the core message.

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Even getting clear yourself, what.

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Presentation and many of us, I include

myself in this, don't naturally think

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of those things and presentations dull.

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John: Do you ever get feedback that

this helps them in other parts of

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their lives with communication as well?

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Mark Robinson: John, when you can

present well or confidently in front

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of a group, then in a one-on-one

like we're having now, or even a,

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social setting, like a date, a party,

anything, you have much more confidence.

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It's a job interview, you

can be much more confident.

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So it helps in multiple areas as well.

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And even.

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writing articles or writing emails.

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One of the things I talk about in my

workshop is kill your darlings, right?

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Get rid of all the things you

would love to say, but you'd just

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be overwhelming your audience.

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And that principle applies equally

to an article, to an email.

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What's your core message?

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And get rid of things

that don't help your goal.

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John: That we will met those people who

spend so long dancing around the topic

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that they're actually trying to get to,

that you probably lost interest or tuned

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out long before they ever get there.

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Mark Robinson: Can I tell you

one quick story about that?

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A few, couple of years ago I was giving

a workshop to a number of technicians,

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but there happened to be a very

senior manager in the room as well.

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And when I talked about, when I said,

when you're in front of senior management,

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think in terms of headlines, what's

the main thing you want to say first?

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Tell them what you want them to do.

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And when I said this, the

senior manager said, thank you.

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He said, many times engineers come to

me and they speak for half an hour.

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And at the end I think, what do you want?

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Why are you telling me

all this information?

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So yeah, just getting that

clear is already a big help.

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John: Yeah, it's like giving you all

the, instructions and technical spec on a

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rocket when all you really want is a, a,

a new, I don't know, have steering wheels,

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I guess, but a new seat or something

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let me, let me ask you for, for yourself.

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I know you've said that when you

first were getting up on a stage,

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you were absolutely terrified.

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Tell me a bit about that and what made

you then push through and continue.

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Mark Robinson: Yeah.

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Well, thank you John.

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That was when I was 13

years old at school.

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In fact, I talk about that a bit in the

TEDx talk, that when I stood in front of

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my classmates, I was absolutely terrified.

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30 unimpressed teenagers all looking at

me, and I just felt so self-conscious.

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I was shaking.

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I was told later I went totally white.

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I was convinced that I

would never do that again.

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It was horrible, traumatizing, even.

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But we had to do it again because, at

school you have to do that a few times.

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And then I went on a workshop by a guy

who's quite well known in the Netherlands.

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Then he gave a follow up

workshop about public speaking

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called Speaking with Impact.

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And he explained, transparent.

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He explained the tricks that he did,

does to keep people's attention keep

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people listening the whole time.

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And I thought, wow, apparently

I can do it as well.

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So I just started learning and

applying these techniques and so

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that is in a nutshell how I went

from thinking I couldn't do it to,

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Hey, I can, and if I can, anyone can.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah, I, I kind of feel that way as well.

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I mean, yes, some people are going

to probably be a little more adept

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than others, and that's okay.

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I mean, we all start from different

places with these things anyway,

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and some people might be able to go

further than others with it because

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they maybe have more of a performance.

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Personality that is more,

just fits better on the stage.

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But then again, it depends on the kind

of speaking you're doing to the kinds of

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audience you do as to what's gonna be most

effective and most connective for them.

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For, for yourself.

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What's been the kind of speaking, speaking

work that you've done since then and, and

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how do you feel going up on stage now?

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Mark Robinson: I feel more

confident, but I'm still nervous.

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And I think that's a good thing

because a few years ago I was

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totally relaxed, way too relaxed

in the run up to a presentation

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and a couple days before I thought.

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Actually, I haven't really well prepared.

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Well, so I, I like crammed for 48 hours,

making sure I was really well prepared.

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So I think a bit of nerves can help.

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And I'm feeling more confident.

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John: That, that's good to hear.

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I mean, it's not the level of

nerves that you had before.

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You were terrified with the

blood strain in front your face.

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So that's, so that's good to hear.

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But I, I do think, a little bit of nerves

kind of shows that you care and that

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you want to do a good job, but we don't

want the level of nerves where you are.

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Almost paralyzed or want to run

away screaming in tears, which,

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which I have seen in various speaker

trainings I've done over the years.

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It does happen.

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Some people are that terrified.

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I.

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Mark Robinson: indeed.

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And, and yet you are a great example

of this because you have been

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able to do standup comedy, right?

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And, and that must take

even more confidence.

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John: Do, do you know, can I share

with you something about that?

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That, 'cause people do keep asking me

about this and like, oh, I couldn't do it.

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I'm terrified.

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And that's how I probably felt.

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And then when I did it and people

saying, aren't you nervous?

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This is before I'm going up on stage.

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'cause you want people to be

asking you, are you nervous just

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when you're about to perform.

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Right?

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But,

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Mark Robinson: right.

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John: that really helps.

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But, I was like, no, not that much.

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I really wasn't.

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I was a little bit nervous, but I had

already framed in my head that the win

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for me was getting up on stage to do this.

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And I gave myself permission to bomb.

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I really did.

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It's like, if I'm terrible, it's okay

because I can be better next time.

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And it kind of helped as well

that a few of the people who

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were up before me in the lineup.

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Did bomb and it, and it was okay.

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The audience was still really

supportive and I thought, this is fine.

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Not nothing's gonna, nothing is

gonna happen except no laughs and

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which would be a bit disappointing,

but it wouldn't be a failure.

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So, so even though people think,

oh yeah, he must be terrified.

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I, I wasn't, it ended up being

a really positive experience.

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What has terrified me in the past

has been competitive speaking.

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That scares me.

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That fills me with dread.

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Mark Robinson: So what you are,

you are in a line of people all

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pitching or what is that setting?

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John: no.

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Like doing the Toastmasters

World Championship.

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Mark Robinson: Right?

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Wow.

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John: It was fun, but it, I found

it absolutely terrifying, especially

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as I got up to higher levels of

the competition and like, oh no,

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I don't know if I want to do this.

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Mark Robinson: Very good though.

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Very good.

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You even did it.

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That sounds incredible, John.

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John: It is, definitely if, if people

who are in into that kind of thing,

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I think it's a great experience.

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Ultimately I decided it

doesn't do, even if you win, it

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doesn't do that much for you.

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It's like, it's, it's a good accolade.

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But, then I just thought it wasn't

worth it because I was like,

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honestly, my heart beating through my

chest, the palpitations, the sweat.

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Too.

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It was a little too much, and I don't

get that when I'm doing keynotes, when

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I'm doing standup comedy, you know,

it's like, let's, let's stick to that.

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Mark Robinson: and if I may give

a tip to your listeners, one thing

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that I think makes the single biggest

difference for confidence is practice.

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John: Right?

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Mark Robinson: I practice, I,

I probably practice at least

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10 times any presentation.

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The first five times, I'm just getting

the story right because I dunno about you.

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But the very first time I give any

presentation at home, it's terrible.

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Really, really awful.

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And I think second time is

slightly less bad and so on.

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And I'm so glad that I don't go

live with my first draft because

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that would not be a success.

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Then the last few times, I'm

just making sure I know it.

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So when I'm in front the

audience, my notes I'm I know it.

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John: And you and I probably both

know from people we've worked with

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that most people are finishing

their first draft the night before.

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Right?

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Mark Robinson: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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John: Which is not the best time to

do it and to try, then you've got

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no real time to practice it and you

end up going up on stage, ring it.

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But I tend to go with the idea that.

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How we do anything is

how we do everything.

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Not all the time, not with everything,

but, but generally it's like if you're the

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kind of person who crammed for your exams

and stressed out the whole time you're in

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there, you're probably gonna do the same

tactic with something like this as well.

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And it's not great.

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It's not great, so we don't recommend it.

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What would be, what would be your

recommendations for people to practice?

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Like how could you help people like set

up and schedule a good level of practice

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that would have them ready to go?

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Mark Robinson: So I think it depends how.

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On a number of factors like how

well you know the topic, how much

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you need to research and so on.

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So it will vary for me from anything

from two weeks to two months in advance.

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I start thinking about it.

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I will typically, do a mind map.

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So for, first of all, think about the

goal, what I want to achieve, and then

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my tip is I think about the three Hs.

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The head.

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What should people remember?

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One, two, or three things.

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The heart, how do you want to feel,

which is usually inspired or excited,

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something that leads to the final H,

which is the hands, the actions, what

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you want people to do as a result.

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Because if there's no call to action,

doesn't matter what you're talking

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about, talk about your holiday,

makes no impact on the world.

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So head, heart, and hands.

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Get that clear first of all.

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John: Cool.

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Do, do you create a little stage area

to practice or how do you set that up?

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Mark Robinson: So can you talk about that?

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Who do you have?

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What happens?

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John: Look, I've had, so many

coaching, experiences over the years

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that I have an amazing network of

people who are friends and coaches.

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So some of them we connect

with and coach regularly.

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Some of them are incredibly good

speakers who I can go to and say, Hey,

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look, can we do a bit of work on this?

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Can you take a look?

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But I also get the opportunity

to have coaching regularly.

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On this show from people like yourself

who, have great expertise and you know,

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as much as we may even work in similar

areas, there's stuff, you know, that

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I don't, there's stuff I know that you

don't, you know, it's like, so always

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learning, always getting development,

but, but also sometimes it means.

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We connect with people sometimes you

really click and you stay in touch

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and you can give each other coaching

or go to them and say, Hey, would

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you coach me on this for a bit?

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So yeah, done some of that.

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I've worked with, world Champion, I had a

coach for who's world champion of public

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speaking with Toastmasters a while back.

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It's all the stuff that

helps you progress faster.

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Mark Robinson: Can I tell you

one quick story about that?

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So, when I gave a workshop at my local

university, it's what I'm saying is it's

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very important to pick the right coach.

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When I gave a workshop at my local

university, see, on my workshop,

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I only give positive feedback, and

the students are not used to that.

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They're used to being

criticized by their professors.

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Very hard.

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I said to them, they said, you know, our

professors, they attack our presentations.

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I said, okay, how good are

your professors at presenting?

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They're terrible.

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They said, and yet they're

the ones giving the criticism.

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So it's very important as you are

doing to pick really good coaches.

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Otherwise you're gonna get

your, the feedback you get could

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actually harm more than help.

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John: I like that.

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And I often say this to people about

groups like Toastmasters, that it will

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help people who are getting started,

but unless you can find a club that

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has experienced speakers in it, it

may be hard to progress further.

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I.

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Because you're not gonna get the feedback

and the encouragement, and you're not

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gonna see and be able to model the more

advanced speakers if they're not in

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your group, if they're not in your club.

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So what I couldn't say

Toastmasters can't do that.

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Some clubs can, some clubs can't.

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That's why exactly that point, you have

to get feedback from the right people.

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And the kind of feedback that's

actually gonna help you to

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grow and develop and encourage.

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So I like that.

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I

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Mark Robinson: and, and you mentioned

an interesting word you said about

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encouragement as well, and that's

also super important, not just to hear

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what you did wrong, but also what you

can, what you did well, because as I

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say on my workshop, I say, who, when

I talk about only positive feedback,

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they say, but why'd you do that?

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I say, well, who's our worst critic?

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: 00:15:17

And they all say, yeah, it's ourselves.

314

: 00:15:18

Exactly.

315

: 00:15:19

I often see this people, after

they've given their presentation on my

316

: 00:15:22

workshop, they will go back to their

saying, oh, I didn't do that right.

317

: 00:15:28

John: You're reminding me of a

speaker training I did early early

318

: 00:15:31

to mid two thousands where we

weren't supposed to give negative

319

: 00:15:35

feedback to anybody in the group.

320

: 00:15:37

And one guy said, I've got loads of

feedback for you, but it's loads of

321

: 00:15:40

negative, we're not allowed to give it.

322

: 00:15:42

And so I said, let's go outside 'cause I

really want to hear it 'cause I'm not the

323

: 00:15:46

kind of person who takes it personally.

324

: 00:15:48

And, it was all really good feedback,

but it wasn't constructive feedback.

325

: 00:15:52

The trainer overheard what we

were doing and he nearly got

326

: 00:15:55

kicked out of the training.

327

: 00:15:56

So you gotta be careful.

328

: 00:15:57

Mark Robinson: was that a course?

329

: 00:15:59

John: It wasn't, it wasn't, I don't wanna

say who it was 'cause the guy's kind of

330

: 00:16:03

not, the guy's not in business anymore

and, there's good reasons for that.

331

: 00:16:07

But, I'll leave it there.

332

: 00:16:08

But, let me ask you, have a book

on advanced presentation skills.

333

: 00:16:13

And I wanna ask you what constitutes

advanced presentation skills and

334

: 00:16:17

how does somebody know when they're

ready, when they've got enough

335

: 00:16:19

foundation to be ready for that?

336

: 00:16:21

Mark Robinson: Yeah, well,

that's a great question.

337

: 00:16:23

What's the difference

between basic and advanced?

338

: 00:16:25

I, some of the, some of the things people

just don't even think about anyway, so

339

: 00:16:31

I mean, like, at a basic level, people

don't even, some people don't even

340

: 00:16:34

get, and these are people who are, as I

say, like CEOs or very smart people who

341

: 00:16:38

wouldn't do anything without having a.

342

: 00:16:41

A presentation.

343

: 00:16:42

So getting some things

like that is a basis.

344

: 00:16:45

Then the next level is making sure

you, as soon as you start speaking,

345

: 00:16:49

you grab people's attention.

346

: 00:16:51

How'd you do that?

347

: 00:16:52

One way is what I'm doing

right now, isn't it?

348

: 00:16:54

I'm just asking questions, aren't I?

349

: 00:16:56

So that's one easy way to

grab people's attention.

350

: 00:16:59

That's kind of the next level,

and then the advanced things.

351

: 00:17:03

Short story.

352

: 00:17:04

I was at a giving a workshop to

another at a technical company and

353

: 00:17:07

there was a lady from Iran there,

and that's important for the story.

354

: 00:17:12

And she said, we get products from

our suppliers and I'm gesturing to my

355

: 00:17:16

right now for the people listening.

356

: 00:17:18

We put it in our warehouse, gesturing

to my center, and then when we

357

: 00:17:22

get an order from our supplier, we

deliver it to the customer to the.

358

: 00:17:28

That was brilliant, but that's different

to what most westerners would do.

359

: 00:17:31

Most westerners would say, for example,

if I say cells are increasing, I'm

360

: 00:17:36

gesturing from my, from my bottom

left to my top right, which for the

361

: 00:17:40

audience, when our past is normally

we think of the past on our left

362

: 00:17:45

means it's kind of going back in time.

363

: 00:17:47

So you've always got to mirror

things when you are in front of an

364

: 00:17:49

audience, and this lady from Iran does.

365

: 00:17:53

So for her, the past is on the right.

366

: 00:17:55

So in a nutshell, that's an example

of one of the more advanced tricks,

367

: 00:17:59

which when you've got the rest in

place, then you can think about,

368

: 00:18:02

John: Yeah, so that's I've heard

it called temporal anchoring on the

369

: 00:18:07

stage, we'll go with that because it

sounds like you've heard that as well.

370

: 00:18:10

And, and so it is understanding where

things are timeline-wise when you're

371

: 00:18:14

presenting, which is just as important

on video as it is on the stage as well.

372

: 00:18:18

But it does, I dunno, I still find it

gets confusing working in mirror image

373

: 00:18:23

that you do have to think about it and

train it a bit, which maybe is where the

374

: 00:18:26

practice part comes in for that as well.

375

: 00:18:29

Mark Robinson: John.

376

: 00:18:30

John: Because it makes a difference

where you're standing as well, right?

377

: 00:18:32

So, you know, if the, if the left

of, if the left audience left of

378

: 00:18:35

the stage is the past for them, and

you are talking about things in the

379

: 00:18:39

past, it makes sense to be there.

380

: 00:18:41

And the same with the right

hand side, if that's the future.

381

: 00:18:43

So

382

: 00:18:44

Mark Robinson: or you can use your hands

when you are in a conversation like this.

383

: 00:18:48

You just use your hands.

384

: 00:18:49

But that's also important when

I'm gonna give a presentation.

385

: 00:18:52

I.

386

: 00:18:53

Early to check out the setup and

if possible, get photos in advance.

387

: 00:18:57

I can already start to think

exactly what you're, John, where

388

: 00:19:00

would I stand when I'm about this?

389

: 00:19:02

Get an idea of the setup already.

390

: 00:19:04

John: Yeah.

391

: 00:19:06

Another thing maybe is then you

talked a little bit about hand

392

: 00:19:09

movements and, and it's something

that I think some people end up

393

: 00:19:12

being very conscious of, but there's

also a lot of unconscious movement.

394

: 00:19:17

Which you talked about with the thing with

your hand, CLA being, and nearly everyone

395

: 00:19:21

has got some kind of unconscious body

movement they tend to do, especially when

396

: 00:19:25

those nerves are creeping up a little bit.

397

: 00:19:28

What, what's your advice for getting

that under control and having

398

: 00:19:33

more volition with your movement?

399

: 00:19:35

Mark Robinson: Well, one thing that I

don't do, and I learned this from Scott

400

: 00:19:39

Adams, the guy who used to do the D

book cartoons, one thing that he says is

401

: 00:19:44

don't, draw attention to those kind of.

402

: 00:19:48

If you do and say, Hey, you're

doing this, don't do that.

403

: 00:19:50

Often, the tick will just move somewhere

else because it's a symptom of nerves.

404

: 00:19:56

So I think the biggest thing

is what we talked about is

405

: 00:19:58

increase your self-confidence.

406

: 00:20:00

One way to do that is, as we talked

about, practice, practice, practice, even

407

: 00:20:05

practice for a particular presentation.

408

: 00:20:07

But also, of course, the

more presentations you

409

: 00:20:09

give, the easier it gets.

410

: 00:20:11

So I think that's probably

the most important thing.

411

: 00:20:14

And, and then another tip for

hands is, best tip I've ever

412

: 00:20:18

heard is just forget about them.

413

: 00:20:21

Don't think about them, because

then they'll move naturally

414

: 00:20:23

and that's the best you can do,

415

: 00:20:25

John: I'm kind of there with that

except you see, you do see a lot

416

: 00:20:30

of people doing strange things with

their hands sometimes when they're

417

: 00:20:34

presenting, and I always fear that.

418

: 00:20:36

So long as you get that picked

up somewhere and do something

419

: 00:20:39

about it that 'cause it, it

does end up being a distraction.

420

: 00:20:43

Mark Robinson: So that's what

I did when I practiced in front

421

: 00:20:45

of my wife and got found out

that, so that that really helped.

422

: 00:20:48

John: I would say it's interesting what

you say there, 'cause I know, Darren

423

: 00:20:50

Brown, the mentalist, Darren Brown,

he, he has a, a tick, which is this

424

: 00:20:54

sort of head nod thing, which, which

works very well for him with the kind

425

: 00:20:58

of thing he does with the mentalism.

426

: 00:21:01

And that's what he's done.

427

: 00:21:01

He's, he doesn't, hasn't

tried to change it or stop it.

428

: 00:21:04

He lets it work, work for him in a way.

429

: 00:21:07

And so, yeah, I think there's

sometimes we can be okay with that and.

430

: 00:21:12

Just not focus, as you say,

not focus on it and just get

431

: 00:21:15

on with the job you went to do.

432

: 00:21:16

But if you're like, I think you

are a bit like me, you like to

433

: 00:21:19

talk with your hands a bit and,

434

: 00:21:21

Mark Robinson: A bit.

435

: 00:21:22

John: And gesticulate, I think, so

long as we don't go over the top

436

: 00:21:24

with that, it's, it, it can be very

effective and, and really helps to

437

: 00:21:28

punctuate what we're talking about.

438

: 00:21:31

And interestingly enough, and, I'm gonna

try and remember the lady's name now.

439

: 00:21:34

Vanessa Van Edwards.

440

: 00:21:35

Do you know her?

441

: 00:21:37

Very interesting ladies.

442

: 00:21:38

Some great books, on

human behavior and stuff.

443

: 00:21:40

And one of the things she says is that

research research shows that, people

444

: 00:21:44

feel more calm, more trusting, more calm

if they can see the backs of your hands.

445

: 00:21:49

So they can see your hands,

especially when you're in video.

446

: 00:21:51

But if, see when they can

see the backs of your hands.

447

: 00:21:54

I guess it's some sort of ancient

psychological thing about not being a

448

: 00:21:57

threat, but being able to see your hands,

particularly the back of your hands is,

449

: 00:22:01

apparently quite a significant thing.

450

: 00:22:02

So

451

: 00:22:03

Mark Robinson: Wow.

452

: 00:22:03

Yeah, that's a

453

: 00:22:04

John: worth, worth checking out her books.

454

: 00:22:06

She's, she's a very,

very interesting lady.

455

: 00:22:09

Um, lemme say the come

to presentation skills.

456

: 00:22:12

Advanced presentation skills,

what, what else really helps us to

457

: 00:22:15

be that bit more professional and

progressed when we're on the stage.

458

: 00:22:20

Mark Robinson: I think one of the other

things is, and again, people don't

459

: 00:22:23

often think about this, particularly in

the technical world, is storytelling.

460

: 00:22:28

If you tell a story, then

people will remember it.

461

: 00:22:32

Your what?

462

: 00:22:33

Your message for a long time to come.

463

: 00:22:36

You make a natural connection

with your audience.

464

: 00:22:38

They love to hear it.

465

: 00:22:39

You know, one of the things

I sell my workshop is it's

466

: 00:22:41

great for keeping attention.

467

: 00:22:42

No child has ever when

there's been taken to bed.

468

: 00:22:46

I said, can you please give

me a PowerPoint presentation?

469

: 00:22:49

No.

470

: 00:22:49

They want to hear a story, right?

471

: 00:22:51

So a PowerPoint presentation would

probably send to sleep faster, but indeed.

472

: 00:22:55

So I think storytelling is very important.

473

: 00:22:57

And how I train people in my workshop

is I say simply remember the three Ps.

474

: 00:23:03

Stories have to be personal.

475

: 00:23:05

So preferably talk from your own

experience, talk about the second P is

476

: 00:23:09

a problem, something you encountered.

477

: 00:23:12

And then that what keeps our

attention is how you resolve that.

478

: 00:23:15

And then finally, the point or the

purpose, why are you telling it?

479

: 00:23:19

And one phrase I find

particularly helpful is.

480

: 00:23:21

So what I learned is, and by saying that

phrase, then you round up your message.

481

: 00:23:27

Yeah.

482

: 00:23:28

Your story with your main message.

483

: 00:23:29

John: I tend to, I tend to agree that

I, I encourage people to tell more

484

: 00:23:33

personal stories than anything else.

485

: 00:23:35

I certainly encourage people to stay away

from those para ballistic stories that.

486

: 00:23:40

Speakers use.

487

: 00:23:41

We've talked, you know, we've talked about

488

: 00:23:42

Mark Robinson: I heard

that from the last one.

489

: 00:23:44

Absolutely.

490

: 00:23:44

John: Yeah.

491

: 00:23:45

So, we talked about that

with Danny b Brassel.

492

: 00:23:46

He hates that as well.

493

: 00:23:48

But, you know, if you've ever been to,

if you, if you're a speaker, you probably

494

: 00:23:51

hear a lot of people speak and you go

to a lot of talks and, and the fact that

495

: 00:23:55

there are very well paid and experienced

speakers who use these make you.

496

: 00:23:59

Makes people think it's okay,

or that's a great story.

497

: 00:24:01

They are, they're great.

498

: 00:24:02

They're illustrative, but

they're just overused.

499

: 00:24:05

But personal stories aren't, but I

think you, I would say you probably

500

: 00:24:09

can sometimes get away with stories

that are about other people as well.

501

: 00:24:14

Um, would, would you agree with that?

502

: 00:24:16

If, if it's from your, maybe if it's

from your own perspective as well.

503

: 00:24:19

Mark Robinson: That's

important what you just said.

504

: 00:24:20

So why are you telling that story?

505

: 00:24:21

What does it mean to you?

506

: 00:24:23

Why are you showing?

507

: 00:24:23

You could say, so I found this

particularly inspiring when

508

: 00:24:26

I, and then you introduce your

own story, why it affected you.

509

: 00:24:29

John: I, I always think storytelling

probably is one of the most

510

: 00:24:33

powerful tools that we have.

511

: 00:24:34

And I know there are people who

specialize just in training,

512

: 00:24:37

storytelling, and I can completely

understand why for me and what I do,

513

: 00:24:41

and it may be similarly for you as well.

514

: 00:24:43

It's just a part, it's a part of

the bigger picture because there's

515

: 00:24:45

so much, there is so much more.

516

: 00:24:48

But I think those basic

story storytelling skills.

517

: 00:24:52

Those basic storytelling

skills are essential.

518

: 00:24:55

How now, what, what, what do you do

if you get someone who comes along?

519

: 00:24:59

'cause I'm sure you've had this where

they say, I haven't got any stories.

520

: 00:25:02

I can't think of anything.

521

: 00:25:03

I'm not, I'm not interesting

or something like that.

522

: 00:25:06

Mark Robinson: I use, some persuasion

tricks throughout my workshop.

523

: 00:25:10

And one simple one I do is peer

pressure, but in a very natural way.

524

: 00:25:15

And I, and I, by the way, some people

say, oh, I don't feel it's ethical.

525

: 00:25:18

I think it's ethical when

it's in their benefit.

526

: 00:25:21

I'm not doing it for my

benefit, but for them.

527

: 00:25:23

So how it works is.

528

: 00:25:25

On the workshop, I say I give them,

talk a bit about storytelling.

529

: 00:25:29

I first of all show a video, then

talk about how, how you can do it

530

: 00:25:32

and why you should tell stories.

531

: 00:25:34

Then I say, now we're gonna take two

minutes in silence to think of story

532

: 00:25:38

we could share with this criteria.

533

: 00:25:39

So it's personal, your experience,

problem you encountered and your point.

534

: 00:25:44

So what I learned is, and I give

them a couple minutes to think

535

: 00:25:47

and I say, okay, now who's first?

536

: 00:25:48

So always let people themselves.

537

: 00:25:51

So someone will say, oh, I'll

go first, and then they start,

538

: 00:25:55

and then someone else goes next.

539

: 00:25:57

Then let's say you are the ninth or

10th out of the 10 people in the room.

540

: 00:26:02

By the time the seventh or eighth

has spoken, you are thinking, oh,

541

: 00:26:04

everyone else has done it except me.

542

: 00:26:06

And then I think there's only

been one person in the thousands

543

: 00:26:09

of people I've trained who said,

I really can't think of a story.

544

: 00:26:11

Everybody comes up with

a story by the end.

545

: 00:26:14

John: We've all got the stories inside us.

546

: 00:26:15

I, I'm of the mind that mostly we

need the prompts to help us remind

547

: 00:26:21

ourselves what those stories are,

548

: 00:26:23

incredibly helpful and

549

: 00:26:25

Mark Robinson: heard the other

people, that triggers them to

550

: 00:26:26

think, oh yes, I've got something.

551

: 00:26:28

John: I think there's something innate in

storytelling that we relate ourselves into

552

: 00:26:32

the story and we do start thinking about

times in our own life that are similar

553

: 00:26:37

or comparable to, to the story we heard.

554

: 00:26:39

We can't help but relate into

the story, so it's a, a, a

555

: 00:26:44

very, a very powerful tool.

556

: 00:26:47

How would you.

557

: 00:26:48

Advise people to use storytelling

in their presentations.

558

: 00:26:53

'cause we don't wanna just have a

whole story for like 45 minute keynote.

559

: 00:26:59

So, so what do, what do you and

how do we, we structure that in.

560

: 00:27:04

Mark Robinson: So, first of all,

how many stories you should use.

561

: 00:27:07

I would probably use one short

story every roughly five minutes.

562

: 00:27:12

So it could be two minutes every 10

minutes, but roughly every five minutes.

563

: 00:27:16

'cause then you have the, the

attention resets with the stories.

564

: 00:27:20

'cause everyone loves it.

565

: 00:27:21

If you start by saying, lemme tell

you about something, something that

566

: 00:27:25

happened to me two years ago, which

completely changed my soon as.

567

: 00:27:30

Everybody in the room is listening.

568

: 00:27:31

So that's how often when you should do it.

569

: 00:27:34

I mean, you can start

with a personal story.

570

: 00:27:36

One thing that I do also mentioned

in my TED Talk, there is a few

571

: 00:27:39

different points, a few different

ways you can structure your talk.

572

: 00:27:42

For example, you want to talk about a

problem and a solution, and then you could

573

: 00:27:46

talk about how you discover that issue,

what happened, what went wrong, and.

574

: 00:27:51

I mean, even a story, Hey, my first

day at work was a complete disaster

575

: 00:27:54

because the last project I did and then a

576

: 00:27:59

John: What about if we want to

tell stories, but we can't, we

577

: 00:28:03

don't necessarily have personal,

relevant experience to the

578

: 00:28:07

point that we want to make.

579

: 00:28:08

What, how can we still tell

a story in that situation?

580

: 00:28:12

Mark Robinson: So, I, well, my

initial reaction is to push back and

581

: 00:28:16

say, Hey, let's think about that.

582

: 00:28:18

Why are you giving this message?

583

: 00:28:20

What's the relevance to you?

584

: 00:28:21

And then we start thinking, oh

yeah, there is an experience.

585

: 00:28:24

I could relate.

586

: 00:28:25

So that's what I would initially do.

587

: 00:28:27

But as you said, you can

always talk about other people.

588

: 00:28:29

I don't make up stories just to

be clear, because I feel I want

589

: 00:28:34

to be authentic and also being.

590

: 00:28:36

Inauthentic, your

confidence level goes down.

591

: 00:28:38

So I always talk about personal

stories and I might refer

592

: 00:28:41

to stories of other people.

593

: 00:28:42

I could say, you know, this person

said to me so and so, if I have

594

: 00:28:46

their permission, then I can repeat

someone else's story as well.

595

: 00:28:50

I, at the very far end are the ones you

talked about earlier, the parables, the

596

: 00:28:54

ones that everyone uses or a famous story.

597

: 00:28:57

I do mention those from time to time.

598

: 00:28:59

But lot.

599

: 00:29:00

But then I a lot less often.

600

: 00:29:03

John: When, when I, I, somewhere back,

I trained to be a stage trainer and.

601

: 00:29:10

It was different to how I

thought it was going to be.

602

: 00:29:14

'cause I knew there was a lot of stories,

and I think some part of me may be guessed

603

: 00:29:18

as well because it was a very particular

kind of training for a particular company.

604

: 00:29:23

Those stories had to be the stories

that the other trainers told.

605

: 00:29:28

could, you could put your own spin

on them, but they had to be the

606

: 00:29:32

same stories in essence, so they

were never your personal stories.

607

: 00:29:38

And I always felt that that was somewhat.

608

: 00:29:41

Damaging to, to your authenticity,

especially if you train that into

609

: 00:29:47

yourself, in, in the long term, that

finding your own authenticity again

610

: 00:29:53

after that, where you kind of, you

maybe get to a point where you get

611

: 00:29:56

pretty good at faking the authenticity

on it, is not a, not a healthy

612

: 00:30:01

way to proceed as a storyteller.

613

: 00:30:03

Mark Robinson: This relates very well

to the topic you talked about in your

614

: 00:30:06

last podcast when you gave, kind of gave

a monologue for 20 minutes about being

615

: 00:30:09

authentic, being your authentic self.

616

: 00:30:11

Very, very important, John, and that's

one reason why I couldn't follow a set

617

: 00:30:16

standard from a well-known company.

618

: 00:30:18

For example, say, Hey, mark, go and

do this presentation skills workshop,

619

: 00:30:21

because it wouldn't be authentic To

me, authenticity is so important and it

620

: 00:30:26

really increases your confidence as well.

621

: 00:30:27

You don't need to look to your

notes when you're telling a story.

622

: 00:30:30

Hey, what did I do next?

623

: 00:30:32

Because you know the stories,

you can speak it confidently.

624

: 00:30:35

It's very powerful.

625

: 00:30:36

John: Yeah, it's interesting to

me that I see lots of other people

626

: 00:30:39

who've gone through that kind of

pathway and they do lack a degree of

627

: 00:30:44

connection with their audiences to,

to me at least it seems that way.

628

: 00:30:49

It was my perspective, but they,

they don't seem to have the warmth

629

: 00:30:53

and connection that somebody who's

really being truly themselves

630

: 00:30:56

and natural and not putting on a

personality from the stage, can do.

631

: 00:31:01

That said as well, I still think there's

a level of curation in what we show

632

: 00:31:06

on stage to what we don't as well.

633

: 00:31:08

Mark Robinson: The online

kind of curs of things.

634

: 00:31:11

You know, people have ups and

downs and what they tend to show

635

: 00:31:13

online is everything above a

certain level, which is Yeah, yeah.

636

: 00:31:17

John: Yeah, but also, you know, we

are not gonna air our dirty laundry or

637

: 00:31:21

pull the skeletons out the closet just

'cause we're on a stage being authentic.

638

: 00:31:25

Mark Robinson: There's something, there's

like a level that you think, no, that's

639

: 00:31:28

just, that's not for public consumption.

640

: 00:31:31

Yeah.

641

: 00:31:31

John: It, it makes

sense I think, I think.

642

: 00:31:33

We probably do all have the experience

of it and, and let me know if you agree

643

: 00:31:37

or not with this, but, we are not exactly

the same in every situation we're in.

644

: 00:31:41

We're not exactly the same in

the office as we are at home.

645

: 00:31:44

We're not necessarily the same

with our, with our parents

646

: 00:31:47

as we are with our friends.

647

: 00:31:49

So we, we show up a little differently

in different social situations,

648

: 00:31:53

but there's still versions of.

649

: 00:31:55

Us, and I think it's finding that

version of you for the stage that's

650

: 00:32:00

gonna connect well with the audience,

but also not undermine yourself or your

651

: 00:32:05

credibility whilst you're up there.

652

: 00:32:07

Mark Robinson: I think

that's a very good point.

653

: 00:32:09

'cause we all have labels, right?

654

: 00:32:10

Son, father, husband, whatever it is.

655

: 00:32:14

But tho and, and those all have different

sides of us, you're absolutely right

656

: 00:32:18

and on stage, you, you may, show a

different side of you, but it's still you.

657

: 00:32:24

Absolutely.

658

: 00:32:25

Yeah.

659

: 00:32:26

John: What, what are your thoughts

about presence and charisma on stage?

660

: 00:32:31

Is there anything you, you

teach relating to that?

661

: 00:32:34

Mark Robinson: I think a part of it

we've talked about, so practice is super

662

: 00:32:38

important, then you have more presence.

663

: 00:32:40

And also what we talked about,

yeah, your, your storytelling and

664

: 00:32:46

being authentic is super important.

665

: 00:32:48

One.

666

: 00:32:49

Thing.

667

: 00:32:50

I think it will make a big difference to

your presence or make sure people remember

668

: 00:32:55

this is another advanced technique

is something called a star moment.

669

: 00:32:59

It's something they'll always remember.

670

: 00:33:03

And when you can do that, then you

come across much more confidently,

671

: 00:33:07

which also increases your presence.

672

: 00:33:08

So.

673

: 00:33:09

An example of a star moment is, you

can do something unusual like, Steve

674

: 00:33:15

Jobs, for example, demonstrating

the iPhone and using it on stage

675

: 00:33:20

and showing how powerful it.

676

: 00:33:22

Pizza for 4,000 people or something.

677

: 00:33:24

I can't remember exactly what it was.

678

: 00:33:25

That's a powerful moment.

679

: 00:33:26

You can draw something.

680

: 00:33:28

There's a very good TED talk about how

to, do drawings on flip charts and things.

681

: 00:33:33

That's what I also teach on my

workshop and I make use of it myself.

682

: 00:33:36

You can get the audience to do something.

683

: 00:33:38

I remember one time on my workshop

there was a, a technical leader.

684

: 00:33:44

She said to everyone, okay,

everyone come to the middle.

685

: 00:33:46

'cause the tables were in a U form.

686

: 00:33:48

We all came to the middle and

she pointed to one person,

687

: 00:33:50

said, you're the team leader.

688

: 00:33:52

Get them all to stand a

meter and a half apart.

689

: 00:33:54

So this person was moving us all around.

690

: 00:33:57

Took about a minute and a half.

691

: 00:33:58

She said, okay, now

all come back together.

692

: 00:34:00

We all came back together.

693

: 00:34:01

She said, now you are

a self organizing team.

694

: 00:34:04

Stand a meter and a half apart and

within five seconds we'd all done it.

695

: 00:34:08

So you can do something unusual.

696

: 00:34:10

You can draw something, you can

get your audience to do something.

697

: 00:34:13

You can show something as well,

you know, like a, A something, a

698

: 00:34:16

prop we would call under a cover.

699

: 00:34:18

If that's on stage and you talk

about it without revealing it, that

700

: 00:34:21

immediately keeps people's attention.

701

: 00:34:25

One simple example, I a pitch

once at a pitch evening.

702

: 00:34:28

There was a student who

came on stage with a.

703

: 00:34:31

Plastic carry bag.

704

: 00:34:32

It looked like he'd just come from

the supermarket and he plunked it

705

: 00:34:35

on the desk and he started giving

his pitch and I thought he looked

706

: 00:34:38

so unprofessional, but his topic was

sustainable housing and he started taking

707

: 00:34:43

out from the bag different ingredients,

which came from the supermarket,

708

: 00:34:46

which I used in sustainable housing.

709

: 00:34:49

It was brilliant.

710

: 00:34:50

So that's some examples of increasing

your stage presence with a star moment.

711

: 00:34:55

John: Yeah.

712

: 00:34:55

I, I like that.

713

: 00:34:56

I like the mystery box kind of

thing, or the eliciting curiosity.

714

: 00:35:00

It's, definitely good ways of doing it.

715

: 00:35:02

So that's one of the ways in which

we can make our presentations.

716

: 00:35:05

More memorable.

717

: 00:35:05

I'm sure you have plenty of others

that you teach people as well.

718

: 00:35:09

Well, I, I certainly hope people

will come and check you out.

719

: 00:35:11

I'm, I'm very keen to take the quiz

'cause I need to know how good I am.

720

: 00:35:15

But I really appreciate everything

we've talked about today.

721

: 00:35:17

It's been, it is been a really

interesting conversation.

722

: 00:35:19

I feel like I've learned something

and I think we, I hope I.

723

: 00:35:23

Listener has as well.

724

: 00:35:24

And so just let's say thank you,

mark, for coming and speaking with

725

: 00:35:28

us on present influence today.

726

: 00:35:29

Mark Robinson: Well,

thank you very much, John.

727

: 00:35:30

You've had some great guests on, so

I'm very privileged to be one of them.

728

: 00:35:34

Thank you, John.

729

: 00:35:35

John: happy to add you to the list.

730

: 00:35:37

Well for me, and I hope for you too.

731

: 00:35:39

That was a brilliant chat with

Mark Robinson Jam, packed with

732

: 00:35:42

practical tools, relatable stories,

and real world presentation wisdom.

733

: 00:35:45

If you took away one thing today, let

it be This great speakers aren't born.

734

: 00:35:49

They're built through practice

feedback and a little bit of courage.

735

: 00:35:53

Even the most nervous communicator

can become a confident presenter.

736

: 00:35:57

Now, if you'd like to learn more

about Mark or his presentation skills

737

: 00:36:00

quiz, check out the links in the show

notes and if present influence is

738

: 00:36:04

helping you sharpen your speaking and.

739

: 00:36:06

If present influence is helping

you sharpen, and if present

740

: 00:36:10

influence is helping you sharpen

your speaking communication

741

: 00:36:13

game, don't forget to subscribe.

742

: 00:36:15

Leave a review and share this episode

with someone who needs to hear it.

743

: 00:36:18

Until next time, keep showing up, keep

speaking up, and keep influencing.

744

: 00:36:23

See you next time.