Episode 209

Mind Magic: Mentalism Secrets For Influence & Engagement with Keith Kong

Mastering Influence From The Stage: Insights from Professional Mentalist Keith Kong

Summary

In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball interviews professional mentalist Keith Kong about the psychology of influence and mentalism. Keith shares insights on how to engage audiences, the planning process for his shows, and the subtle techniques he uses to gauge and influence his audience. He also discusses the similarities between mentalism and speaking, emphasises the importance of preparation, and explores the role of hypnosis and NLP in his work. Listeners are treated to practical tips on tonality, body language, and audience interaction to elevate their communication and presentation skills.

Visit https://www.kongmentalist.com/ to learn more about Keith and his shows.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Influence and Hypnosis

00:24 Meet Keith Kong: The Professional Mentalist

01:46 The Art of Mentalism and Performance

03:27 Planning and Structuring a Show

08:34 Engaging the Audience

15:45 Psychology and Mentalism Insights

25:49 Understanding Everyday Hypnosis

26:25 The Reality of Hypnotherapy

27:04 Negative Responses to Hypnosis

29:53 Techniques and Applications of Hypnosis

32:19 The Importance of Tonality in Communication

34:24 Body Language and Stage Presence

38:59 Upcoming Projects and Events

41:44 Final Thoughts and Takeaways

Go to presentinfluence.com to take the Speaker Strengths Quiz and discover your greatest strengths as a speaker as well as where to focus for growth. For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Transcript
John:

How well do you understand influence?

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Do you know the triggers that nearly

all of us tend to react to and

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respond to in exactly the same way?

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Do you know how to keep a room

full of people energized when

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you're giving a presentation?

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Do you know how to use some of the

tools of hypnosis to work to your

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advantage ? Is hypnosis even a real thing?

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Well, we're gonna get into it

today with my guest, Keith Kong.

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Keith is a professional mentalist, and

if you don't know what a mentalist is,

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think somebody like Derren Brown, you

know, tricks of the mind playing with

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psychology and leveraging that in a way

to either be kind of mind reading people

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or influencing people to do things

or react to respond in certain ways.

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If you've ever seen professional magicians

and comedians, Penn and Teller, they have

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a TV show called Fool Me and Keith was a

winner of that show with his mentalism.

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So.

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You know that he's good.

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And he very kindly came and joined

me in the Present Influence studios

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to talk about some of the psychology

of influence and persuasion, how to

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use that in presentations and even

how to use some of the entertainment

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skills of being a professional stage

mentalist to help you be better on

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stage as a speaker and communicator.

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These are all things that you're not

gonna wanna miss in today's episode, so.

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It is packed full of lots of really

useful tools and tips from Keith.

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Welcome to Present Influence the

show for professional communicators

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who want to influence, impact,

and inspire with their talks.

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My name's John Ball and I'm your

guide on this journey to mastery

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level communication skills.

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Keith, thank you so much for coming

and joining me in the virtual studio.

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It is great to be with you today.

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Keith Kong: Yeah, it's great to be here.

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Thanks for having me, John.

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John: I wanted to kick things off

since you are a professional mentalist,

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by making sure that our listener

is gonna know what a mentalist

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is and what a mentalist does, so

that we can fully understand why.

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I was maybe so excited to have

you come on the show today.

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Keith Kong: Yeah, absolutely.

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A mentalist is like a

professional mind reader.

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If you think of a magician as someone that

does sleight of hand, think of a mentalist

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as someone that does sleight of mind.

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So for example, it's a branch of magic.

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But it's a specialty think general

practitioner compared to a neurosurgeon.

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And neurosurgeon is a good metaphor

here because it's all about

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the mind, all about the brain.

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You're never gonna see me make things

vanish or levitate or that sort of

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thing, but instead, I'm gonna be

making predictions and reading minds.

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And this all happens on a stage,

speaking from the platform, typically

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at corporate, high-end, private

events and that sort of thing.

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It's all entertainment.

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I don't claim to be a psychic or

anything like that, but it's a slightly

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more sophisticated form of magic.

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John: And so you are never really just

gonna get on stage and just mumble or

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murmur to your audience right there.

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There's gotta be a bit of a

wow factor with what you do.

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I should think I.

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Keith Kong: Yeah, absolutely.

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I think that I.

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At a, at an advantage here because,

and I think magicians in general are

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because we already start with a miracle.

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Like the thing that you have

to do is already supposed

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to be impossible and wowing.

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So now you have that headstart.

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But of course, it doesn't mean that you

can just go up there and do that thing.

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You still need to know how to speak

and rehearse and know what you're

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gonna say and how to present.

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But absolutely, to answer

your question, yeah, the wow

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factor always has to be there.

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John: And so ju just 'cause I'm genuinely

curious when you are planning a show,

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when you're putting your act together,

and I imagine maybe you have more than

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one act that you performed over time.

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Is that something that.

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Very carefully plan the

position like we had.

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We have to start with this big opening,

close with this specific opening.

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Make sure we keep hit

some beats along the way.

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All that kind of thing.

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It's just give us a little insight

into your planning process for a show.

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Keith Kong: So for me the answer is yes.

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I know performers that say,

oh, I just go up there and

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John: Okay.

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Keith Kong: up to the venue and be like,

I don't even know what I'm gonna do yet.

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I'm just gonna feel it out.

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And I, that, to me, that terrifies me.

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I want to have a plan going in.

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I feel like it better prepares me, and

at the very least, I want bookends.

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I want to know that I'm gonna start

strong and I'm gonna end strong.

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Because shows that start

well tend to end well.

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So it's really important that I

hit the opening mark, deliver those

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lines, and then, yeah, we, or me

in particular, and a lot of us put

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thought into the structure of the show.

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do we add texture?

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How do we make it so that it's different?

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For example, when you see a comedian.

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go, and the jokes all interweave.

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And at the end of the night, if you try to

tell someone about the show and you try to

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tell them a joke, it's difficult sometimes

because the jokes have callbacks and

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they come in and go throughout the show.

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Whereas sometimes you go and see a

magic show or a mentalist and it's

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there's a trick, there's another

trick, there's another trick.

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And so I put a lot of thought into how I

weave it, how I make it a cohesive show,

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and not just magic for the sake of magic.

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John: I guess in my head I'm

picturing like someone like Darren

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Brown, who I imagine know is

probably the only mentalist I've

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actually been to see in a theater.

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But those shows are undoubtedly

very well planned and probably

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months in preparation.

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So just in my head, that's when it makes

sense to me, but it's a lot like speakers.

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Speak a lot of speakers really want to

be very well prepared, have everything

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planned out, know what they, how they're

gonna open, how they're gonna close,

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have everything so that you can have

things that call back to other things

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or things that use the right metaphors

within that, the kinds of elements that

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are just very hard to do on the fly

to improvise them into that, that do

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require a bit of finessing and planning.

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So I like that particularly

that you do that and, yeah.

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Keith Kong: don't think they

should be mutually exclusive.

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I think that by being prepared

and having those talk tracks and

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knowing where I'm going, it also

allows me to live in the moment.

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And if something organically happens

in the room, then I can comment on it.

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I can break away from that script or

talk track, address it, and be in the

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moment, and then I can get right back

on track and know where I left off

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and get everything back on the rails.

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So I think that it is important to

live in the moment and have those

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moments with your audience, but

being prepared also helps with that.

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John: Yeah, that makes total sense

to me because if you are improvising

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the whole thing and like maybe you

know you stuff really well, ah, I

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just get up there and do whatever.

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I feel like in the moment you

do have to be giving mental

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energy to what's coming next.

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What am I gonna go into next?

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How am I gonna lead into that?

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Whereas prepared show allows you as the

flexibility, again very similar I think

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to, to speaking and to some degree into

into comedy as well, because even great.

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Comedy improvisers have done so

many reps of improvisation that they

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pretty much just know where to go

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with improv, though, they have put

in hours or months or even years of

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preparation to be able to go and do that.

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Even if you don't know exactly where

the improv is necessarily gonna go.

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Keith Kong: Yeah.

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Then the other thing is sometimes you see

guys that are so rigid in structure that

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it just comes across as insincere because

they're not living in the moment at all.

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They're just saying jokes and

they're speeding past them, as

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if they're not in the moment.

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So it's a really fine line.

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It's, I think it's an important balance.

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John: Yeah you got into

magic pretty early.

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When you were a kid, did you

have those natural performance

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elements then, or is that something

that you've developed over time?

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Keith Kong: I think I had a little

bit of a knack for it, but it was

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definitely something that developed

over time when I started working

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with consultants and because I was

the guy that would get up there with

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that natural talent and wing it.

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It went great.

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People liked it and stuff like that,

but I'm really glad that I didn't

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stay in that space and I started

putting more thoughts into everything.

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Like why we do everything that we

do in the show, if it's not adding

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to the show, it's taking away.

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So I want to say everything

that needs to be said in as few

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words as necessary to say them.

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And also while evoking emotion

and getting people to remember

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it and digest it in an easy.

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In an easy way to do

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John: yeah.

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What I mean, I know what you do

is not the same as what I do as

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a speaker and I'm sure you would

have no trouble transitioning to

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doing something like that though.

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But what kind of ideas or as a

concept do you have in mind for

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how to keep an audience engaged

throughout the whole of a show?

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Keith Kong: A few things

come to mind instantly.

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Visuals.

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Stories and things like

that get them thinking.

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I would say things that are also

involving the audience hands-on.

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So you asked about the

structure to my show.

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I like as early as possible in

the show, get everybody involved.

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We call it a macro effect, but if I

can get everyone in the audience to

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stand up or participate in some kind

of way, now you're in the show and that

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just, it makes it, harder to drift

off and get lost in a conversation if

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you're actually the center of the show.

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And now, if from an early point in the

show you are affected and you experienced

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something pretty impossible, pretty crazy,

now you're more likely to be invested

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and along for the rest of the ride.

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John: Gotcha.

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And so I think as there's something

to learn from that in terms of having

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a level of audience interaction

and interactivity in what you do.

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I hear a lot of people now in the speaking

world talk about they want more audience

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interaction, and some people interpret

that to be more like having a workshop

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activity in a keynote speech, which I

generally think is a bad idea, but enough

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interaction that they're doing something

as you said, sta get them to stand up, get

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'em to be involved and be a part of it.

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Raise, raise their hands, shout

something out, what's something

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that actually has them involved

in what's going on so that they're

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not just passive observers anymore.

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And I think that's a

really key part in this.

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Keith Kong: And it doesn't

have to be something long.

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I do like workshops a lot because I

feel like we can get everyone involved

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easily and we can make things happen

that are really transformative.

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But if you can do something transformative

from the platform, even better

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because it's got that same effect.

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If I can take you through a transformation

opposed to just showing you from a

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textbook or this study said that, but

if you can actually experience it and.

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Say, for example, do something that you

thought was impossible a few moments

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ago, and now in you're able to do that

thing, which is, it is a real example.

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It's a thing that I have done

in different presentations.

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It's so powerful.

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Everybody in the room talks about

it, and now they leave with this

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transformative skill that they

can put into practice immediately.

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John: How, roughly how long

would a show of like yours be

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when someone comes to see you?

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Keith Kong: It varies when you say,

when someone comes to see me, it's

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difficult because I primarily perform at

corporate events where they bring me in,

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John: Okay.

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Keith Kong: ranges from anywhere from 15

minutes as a human caffeine sort of event

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energizer in the morning all the way to a

60 minute after dinner entertainment show.

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But I think the sweet spot, most clients

bring me in for about 45 minutes.

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John: Okay, great.

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So again, lots of similarities

to this, to the professional

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speaking world with that as well.

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What for you are some of the key

elements or key ways that you then keep

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people engaged throughout a 45 minute

to 60 minute presentation or event?

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Keith Kong: With me.

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One thing that's really great is because

it's a mind reading show, people's

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favorite topic tends to be themselves.

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themselves and their own thoughts

and what it means and their

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feelings and things like that.

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So if I'm reading your mind, you

are now the star of the show.

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And not only that, if I'm telling

you that I can tell you what the

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person sat next to you is thinking

now you're curious about that too.

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So that's what's great for me is.

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show is different every time because

the audience and their thoughts

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is what determines the outcomes

of things throughout the night.

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So I have that to my advantage

because people are already

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intrinsically interested and motivated

to, to follow along with that.

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I would say also things like texture,

making sure I, ooh, it's, I saw

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a mentalist the other day, and.

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Man, I just looked at my

girlfriend who sat next to me

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and it made me want to cringe.

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I was like, I hate every part of this.

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It was just so boring and drawn

out, and it's unfortunate, but like

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you've, you hear this sometimes in the

mentalism community or in the magic

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community where they say, mentalism

is so boring, and that's not the case.

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Bad mentalism is boring, drawn

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John: Right.

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Keith Kong: is boring.

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And so I work really hard to keep things

moving, keep the pace, add texture.

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Look at the set lists.

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For me, it's like this is

a mind reading routine.

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This is a prediction routine,

but I'm not gonna have a

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prediction, another prediction.

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It's too much heavy spice.

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We need to break it up and

create more of a flow to it.

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And then of course, no

magic for the sake of magic.

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Is there a meaning behind this?

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What's the underlying message here?

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Why?

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Why are we watching this?

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Yes, it's for entertainment, but

if I could give them something else

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to chew on and think about and take

home with them, then it's even better

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because now it hits on multiple levels.

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John: I can remember when I very first

trained as a coach certain people

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around me got very wary that I was

gonna be analyzing them to coach.

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It's not the same as psychotherapy,

but people thought I was

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gonna be analyzing them.

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Do you find that people are a

little wary of you as a mentalist?

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Like they try to be careful

what they say or do around you.

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Keith Kong: Oh, a thousand percent.

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I've walked into venues and people

that have booked me or been on the

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board that knows I'm coming and stuff

like that, they'll be, oh my God.

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Don't, are you reading me now?

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Don't look at me.

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I think it's great.

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I remember, it's interesting because

I've had a lot of mentors and psychology

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professors and things like that.

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And there were times early on

where I looked at some of these

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guys and I was like, oh man.

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Like he knows what I'm thinking right now.

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And so it's really cool to

have been on both ends of that.

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John: Yeah.

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And so do you find it is something

you can switch off or do you

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sometimes find yourself reading

when you don't really intend to be?

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Keith Kong: I do switch it

off if I'm not thinking about

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John: I.

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Keith Kong: sometimes you'll catch

something and then you'll just know

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oh, this is what's happening right

now and now you're paying attention

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to it and you're back into it.

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So it's interesting.

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I think I do turn it off because I

don't want to constantly be analyzing.

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I think that would be exhausting.

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But it's great that you can flip

the switch, turn it back on, and

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get a grasp on what's happening.

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And the other thing I would say to

that is also sometimes people get into

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psychology and they learn a little bit of

it, and then they trick themselves into

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believing that they're an expert or that

they have a solid grasp on a situation.

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John: Right.

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Keith Kong: it's important to read

all of these things, body language,

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subtle cues and things like that.

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All should be read in clusters.

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You are looking for a bunch of

things that are congruent that would

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lead you to the same conclusion.

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John: Yeah.

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I'm very fascinated by the

psychology aspects of what you do.

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And the whole area of

mentalism interests me.

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Probably not enough to go and start

learning it at this stage in my life,

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but I do find it very fascinating.

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And I know that you have some

background in, in psychology.

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What are some of the maybe most

surprising things that you've

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learned or realized from what you

do in relation to how people work?

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I guess.

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Keith Kong: That's a great question.

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There's not a whole lot

that surprises me anymore.

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I always like to say people are people and

like people are people, they're fallible.

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They fall for the same kinds of

influence and persuasion and certain

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things, reciprocity norms, like we're

all susceptible to these things.

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Even if you know about it.

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There's been, I remember being surprised

by, and this is a wild example, but

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schizophrenics, people with schizophrenia

and they're having delusions and all of

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these hallucinations, things like that.

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Despite that, really surprised me when I

was first learning about all of this years

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ago to find that people with schizophrenia

are aware that they have schizophrenia.

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John: Right.

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Keith Kong: that this is a thing that

they're experiencing false beliefs

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and hallucinations and stuff like

that, but then they still sometimes

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can't differentiate between the two.

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So like that was an

interesting thing to me that.

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was one guy that we talked about,

he was actually a therapist

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and he developed schizophrenia.

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So he was very aware of what he was

dealing with, but it still was able

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to control when he is not medicating

himself, which is a whole nother thing

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when it comes to schizophrenics and the

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That they take.

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And we could go on and on about that.

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But yeah, surprising surprising things.

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There's not too much anymore.

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It's just, I think that people are people

and we all can do good things, bad things.

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Yeah

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John: do you feel like you have any

insights into how people work that

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perhaps other people don't have?

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Generally.

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Keith Kong: I think so.

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I think just being aware of, I

think just being aware of the

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different things that are out

there when it comes to things like.

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Reciprocity norms or body language, like

these are things that are happening.

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Body language happens without you thinking

about it, you know that it's happening

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and you can pay attention now, you

definitely have more insight into what's

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going on than the average person that

doesn't know anything about it and is

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watching the same conversation happen.

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John: Yeah.

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And for what you do, you'll have.

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Elements where you're gonna be doing

influence, like one-on-one with people,

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I would imagine, and also elements where

you may be doing it with the whole room.

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What are some of the things you could tell

us about how the influence and persuasion

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skills work in those sorts of areas?

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What are some of, they may be insights

or even hacks or ways to understand

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this of influencing one-to-one

and influencing on a group level?

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Keith Kong: Yeah.

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Okay.

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So one-on-one is gonna be probably a

lot of the stuff that your listeners

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have heard, things like bonding

and rapport matching and mirroring.

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Those are all great for one-on-one.

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Color psychology is interesting.

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Blue is a persuasive color.

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Red is usually a power color.

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So those things factor in, and I

think that these are all multipliers.

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When you know these things and

you stack them, it's just like

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bonus points from the platform.

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Oftentimes people get loud and

chatty and it's hard to grasp their

363

:

attention, especially right at the

start, people in the back of the room.

364

:

For me, this is why I like to

come in with something that

365

:

involves everybody if I can.

366

:

John: Yeah.

367

:

Keith Kong: want to build the credibility.

368

:

When I come out, there's a sizzle reel

that plays, and it shows the shows

369

:

that I've been on and the credits and

accolades that I've received, and now

370

:

people tend to say to themselves, oh.

371

:

No matter what this guy does, it's

gonna be good because it's already been

372

:

determined that he's good based on other

professionals and people like that.

373

:

when they get chatty, oftentimes it's our

instinct to get louder and try like guys,

374

:

try to command their attention, but it's

actually better to talk a little softer.

375

:

And now they're like,

whoa, what's happening?

376

:

And now they want to pay attention.

377

:

So a ton of techniques

come to mind when it comes

378

:

John: Is that something that also, like

if you speak a bit softer, other people,

379

:

there's start going, trying to hear them.

380

:

Keith Kong: Yeah, absolutely.

381

:

It's just, it's great because you notice

the Dr, the change in sound, like we,

382

:

really loud and how many times have you

been talking to someone and then the room

383

:

gets quiet and it's oh, what's happening?

384

:

John: Yeah, no, absolutely.

385

:

I get that.

386

:

With one-to-one influence and persuasion,

you say matching and mirroring some things

387

:

like, but what are some of the maybe.

388

:

Lesser known things that you

might use in in working on

389

:

stage with somebody or, yeah.

390

:

In your routine,

391

:

Keith Kong: there's so

many subtle techniques for.

392

:

Something as simple as if I want to

determine whether or not someone's

393

:

right or left-handed, because I don't

put a whole lot of stock in NLP.

394

:

But there are some parts that

do work that I do agree with.

395

:

one thing that's interesting is eye

movements, for example, up until

396

:

the left is typically fabrication.

397

:

Like we might say person's lying

they're creating a story, whereas

398

:

up until the right would be recall.

399

:

One thing that's interesting is that

it's the opposite for left-handed people.

400

:

So how do you know if

someone's right or left-handed?

401

:

Sometimes I might just ask in a

presentation, but if I wanna know

402

:

subtly, I might hand them the mic watch

for the hand that they grab it with.

403

:

now I know like little subtle

things like that are great.

404

:

I think if we talk about body

language, your nose and feet tend

405

:

to point towards areas of desire.

406

:

We could talk about shoes.

407

:

Just looking at someone's shoes often

tells you a lot about the kind of person

408

:

that they are, their communication

style and that sort of thing.

409

:

John: Like if they're all scuffed

up and scruffy, or if they polished

410

:

and pristine, that kind of thing.

411

:

What is it you look for there?

412

:

Keith Kong: Yeah.

413

:

If they're polished and pristine,

look at someone's office.

414

:

Even if you go into someone's office

and there's a place for everything,

415

:

chances are this person is very

analytical, They want the statistics.

416

:

They want facts, like

everything's neat and organized.

417

:

Whereas you go into someone's

office and they've just got

418

:

awards and accolades on the walls.

419

:

Now you know that this person is,

like a sort of dominant personality.

420

:

If you're in a buyer situation,

these are the people that

421

:

tend to like to buy in bulk.

422

:

They wanna

423

:

John: Yeah.

424

:

Keith Kong: done.

425

:

Done is better than done, right?

426

:

We can just get it done.

427

:

We can fix it later if we need to.

428

:

If you go into someone's office and

they've got pictures of their family

429

:

all over the walls, then you know

that this is like a steady relator,

430

:

the glue that holds society together.

431

:

This is the person.

432

:

That wants everybody to be happy,

everything to be safe and fair.

433

:

So I might use words like, if that

sounds fair, then we can, or if we all

434

:

agree, then would the next step, would it

make sense to do this as the next step?

435

:

And so the language might change

now going back to that person

436

:

with the awards on the wall.

437

:

In that same conversation, I might say

something like, and then if that sounds

438

:

good to you, or I might say something

like, you guys know your industry.

439

:

You probably do it

better than anyone else.

440

:

And that's all music

to that person's ears.

441

:

So you look for subtle cues like that,

and you can deliver the same message,

442

:

but worded differently, worded in

a way that caters to that person's

443

:

personality and communication styles.

444

:

John: And that's just from paying

attention to some of the detail

445

:

on the person and around them

in their environments as well.

446

:

I.

447

:

Keith Kong: Yeah, absolutely.

448

:

John: Which is pretty awesome.

449

:

I'm interested that you brought up

NLP and your linguistic programming.

450

:

Some is something that certainly a number

of my listeners will know something about

451

:

and maybe even have had training in.

452

:

I've been through training for that

and I'm probably in the same boat as

453

:

you as there are some bits of it that

kind of good and useful and there's

454

:

a lot of it that's, kind of crap.

455

:

Just don't really bother with Are

there, what are some of the other

456

:

aspects or that you maybe have got

from that perhaps have been helpful?

457

:

Keith Kong: I would say

anchoring is a good one, right?

458

:

Anchoring, condiment, anchoring, which

is just tying a feeling to an object and

459

:

now anytime that object comes out, but

psychologists might explain that as a

460

:

form of classical conditioning, right?

461

:

Like very pavlovian.

462

:

You associate, if you have these

feelings, when this object is around

463

:

now, when this object is around,

you have these feelings again.

464

:

So it all makes sense.

465

:

Things like that.

466

:

The eye movements are

interesting, but I don't know.

467

:

I think a lot of the rest of it is just

maybe like too bro sciencey in a way.

468

:

John: It certainly made some

people a lot of money teaching it.

469

:

There's no doubt about that.

470

:

But yes, I think some of it is is

cheap psychology, and for me it

471

:

uses uses a lot of peer pressure to

get results in those sort of large

472

:

events and things where somebody I

think maybe even certain religious

473

:

events might do similar things

where somebody feels that

474

:

they have to go along with it.

475

:

I think the same is I feel

the same about hypnosis.

476

:

I dunno.

477

:

But I'm curious what you

think about hypnosis.

478

:

'cause I can't, I am a bit like,

I don't necessarily think it's

479

:

a real thing, but I think we can

convince ourselves to do stuff.

480

:

But where would you, as a mentalist, where

would you stand with something like that?

481

:

Keith Kong: so I would say

hypnosis is a real thing.

482

:

If you've ever been driving

a car and space out.

483

:

you're home.

484

:

All of a sudden you're

pulling in the driveway.

485

:

You don't remember the

last few miles or anything.

486

:

That's a form of hypnosis.

487

:

We experience that all the

time in our day-to-day lives.

488

:

It's just when it comes to a

stage hypnotist or hypnotherapy,

489

:

it's almost as if you

are in the driver's seat.

490

:

The hypnotist is in the passenger seat

with a roadmap, steering you, telling you

491

:

where to go, and you allow it to happen.

492

:

And.

493

:

It's not, I don't wanna say it's

playing along, but in a way,

494

:

like you are listening to these

commands and you are being receptive

495

:

to them, and it is relaxing.

496

:

An hour of hypnosis feels

like a night of sleep.

497

:

I've been hypnotized,

I've hypnotized people.

498

:

can be fun.

499

:

I've never done hypnotherapy,

but obviously people see

500

:

results with that as well.

501

:

so yeah, it's real.

502

:

There's different levels

of response to it.

503

:

Some people.

504

:

Are non-responsive because

they wanna fight it.

505

:

They think oh, I'm not

weak-minded and stuff.

506

:

And if you wanna fight with

hypnotist, you've already won.

507

:

It won't happen.

508

:

You're not gonna be able to do,

you wouldn't do anything that you

509

:

wouldn't normally do under hypnosis

if you weren't under hypnosis.

510

:

John: Yeah.

511

:

Keith Kong: Unless you get into like

manchurian candidate type stuff,

512

:

which is a whole nother, stage

hypnosis and that sort of thing.

513

:

And then there's some people that

have really negative responses.

514

:

It's called an abreaction, which is

when there's some kind of trauma from

515

:

their past or something like that.

516

:

And now being in this trance state,

something triggers that and brings it up.

517

:

And they might get really

angry or pass out or shake and.

518

:

Yeah, so you look for signs like that.

519

:

If you bring someone up and you're

doing an induction, which is the part

520

:

that is putting them under and you're

seeing them and their are getting

521

:

clenched as they're sitting there, like

things like that, that's usually, it's

522

:

not always the case, but if you see a

stage hypnosis show and they tap you

523

:

and send you back down to your seat,

that might be one of the reasons.

524

:

We don't want that happening on stage

and it's happened to my friends.

525

:

they'll be doing a hypnosis show at a

school, a college or something like that.

526

:

And a girl came up on stage,

had an abreaction, and just

527

:

started crying on stage.

528

:

it's obviously an awkward

moment, but now the organizers

529

:

of that event also have concerns.

530

:

And hypnosis doesn't come back

the next year because of it.

531

:

But it's a thing that can happen.

532

:

So I'd say it's definitely real.

533

:

But yeah, there is an extent of people.

534

:

There are even some people that will

get on stage and just play along

535

:

John: Yeah.

536

:

Keith Kong: the hypnotist

isn't asking them to do it, but

537

:

they're the star of the show.

538

:

They're up in the and oftentimes if

a hypnotist notices that he will send

539

:

that person back to their seat too.

540

:

'cause that's not what

we want in the show.

541

:

We want authentic responses and reactions.

542

:

John: So, I mean, I'm not necessarily

of the opinion, it's all bunk that

543

:

there's something there, but I'm not sure

exactly what hypnosis is to that extent.

544

:

It's like where do we define the line

or draw the line between it just being

545

:

a form self hypnosis where you convince

yourself or where someone external

546

:

to you actually has the ability to

have that mental influence over you.

547

:

'cause I think as you suggested

that you have to give it to them.

548

:

You have to trust the person.

549

:

And if you put up resistance to

it's not gonna happen anyway.

550

:

Keith Kong: And it's like a

form of mindfulness in a way.

551

:

I remember a psychology professor

of mine who would have us do my.

552

:

Mindfulness ex activities and exercises

at the beginning of every session, I

553

:

once made this comparison and she didn't

like it, but I stand by it I think.

554

:

I think she didn't like it because

people sometimes fear hypnosis

555

:

and she didn't want 'em to fear

mindfulness and everything.

556

:

I don't think you should fear

either of them, there are massive

557

:

similarities between the induction

phase, the first 15 minutes of a stage

558

:

hypnosis show and a guided meditation.

559

:

I want you to concentrate

on that spot on the ceiling.

560

:

Focus on that and breathe in.

561

:

Breathe out.

562

:

Shut your eyes.

563

:

Think of this, you're descending down

a stair, a stairwell, like it's very

564

:

similar, and so it just puts you in this

relaxed state, which is why it feels

565

:

so good when you come out of hypnosis.

566

:

Another thing, another hypnotic

technique that you can apply to

567

:

various aspects of everyday life when

a hypnotist puts you under and then

568

:

they bring you up, they bring you out.

569

:

Then they put you back under,

so they'll hypnotize you.

570

:

They'll give you a post

hypnotic suggestion.

571

:

The moment I snap my fingers,

this is gonna happen.

572

:

That happens.

573

:

Then they go sleep and you're back

under, when you go back under,

574

:

you're in deeper than before.

575

:

So if I can bring someone, let's say it's

a sales situation or something like that,

576

:

John: Yeah.

577

:

Keith Kong: really selling you

on this product and you are

578

:

ready to buy, and then I say.

579

:

But you're probably, I don't know that

it would work, actually, or I don't know.

580

:

You'd be a good fit for this

because of that and stuff.

581

:

And then you're like, yeah, I guess so.

582

:

And it like deflates you and then

you say, but actually, and now

583

:

you like, bring them back in.

584

:

Now they're, they want it even more.

585

:

They're locked in even more.

586

:

A few other things on hypnosis.

587

:

Techniques include things

like pacing and leading.

588

:

So pacing might be, John, as you're

sitting there with your feet flat on

589

:

the ground hands in your lap, you're

gonna start to imagine that you're

590

:

stuck to the seat and the harder you

try to stand, the more you stick.

591

:

And so now I'm pacing by saying,

as you sit there and you are feet

592

:

flat on the ground and they are your

hands in your lap, and they are.

593

:

are going to start to feel

this, and now I'm leading.

594

:

So I'm saying like as this is

happening, this is also gonna happen.

595

:

And then if you notice the language,

I'm saying things like the harder you

596

:

try, the more you're going to stick.

597

:

I'm not saying like I'm saying

try, you're gonna try to stand,

598

:

you're not gonna be able to do it

because you're gonna stick harder.

599

:

So there's a lot of language and

there's a lot of structure and

600

:

hypnosis as well that helps get

601

:

John: Yeah.

602

:

And from my, I remember from my

NRP and hypnosis trainings, that

603

:

was like embedded commands, right?

604

:

It is.

605

:

You tell, you're telling them

already what to do but it sounds like

606

:

you're just pacing their experience.

607

:

Keith Kong: Yep.

608

:

John: Very interesting.

609

:

I.

610

:

From I love the psychology of all of this.

611

:

I wonder what psychological insights,

especially that you might have that could

612

:

be of great insight or benefit to people

who are on the stage as professional

613

:

speakers and and communicators.

614

:

Keith Kong: I think a topic that

probably comes up a lot is tonality.

615

:

Is a big thing when it

comes to communication.

616

:

The platform, speaking from the stages,

617

:

I would say more difficult than the

one-on-one situations because now you've

618

:

got a massive crowd and you can look at

the audience and see what sort of industry

619

:

they come from and get different ideas

based on that of who you're dealing with.

620

:

But when it's one-on-one,

it's much more easy.

621

:

I would say tonality is a big thing.

622

:

It's probably come up here a lot, but body

language we know is 55% of communication

623

:

is nonverbal and tonality accounts for

38%, so it's the second largest one.

624

:

You could say some really horrible

things, but if you say it in the

625

:

right tone, then it'll fly by.

626

:

Think of tonality as what dogs understand.

627

:

So I could yell at

628

:

John: Yeah.

629

:

Keith Kong: and be like,

you are the best dog ever.

630

:

And the dog's gonna like freak out and

run away because he doesn't understand

631

:

the words, but he understands that tone.

632

:

Whereas I could be like, oh, you're such

a bad boy while petting him and he is

633

:

gonna be wagging his tail and loving it.

634

:

Think of tonality when you

speak when it comes to saying

635

:

something really important.

636

:

Slow down and deliver those lines, and

now it just hits different like the pacing

637

:

of the speed of the speech and tone.

638

:

Those are all very big, I

think for influence as well.

639

:

John: And that suggests that you

want to have them congruent to

640

:

what's going on or to the emotion of

a particular piece that you're in.

641

:

Keith Kong: Absolutely.

642

:

Because anytime there's an

inconsistency or incongruency between

643

:

those three forms of communication,

words, tonality, body language.

644

:

It comes across as disjointed.

645

:

It's what we see as sarcasm.

646

:

I could say wow, John,

you're a really smart guy.

647

:

Or I could say, wow, John,

you are really smart.

648

:

It's the same words, but the tone makes

a massive shift because comes across

649

:

as sarcasm because they're disjointed.

650

:

John: Are you, when you are on stage, are

you conscious of your own body language or

651

:

maybe even of your audience body language?

652

:

Keith Kong: I try to

be of my own for sure.

653

:

We do this thing in rehearsal

sometimes where we stand on of paper.

654

:

It's what is it?

655

:

Eight and a half by 11

inches sheet of paper.

656

:

And we don't move from that paper

unless it's motivated by something,

657

:

because I myself am a natural pacer.

658

:

If I'm talking on the phone, I

am pacing around the whole house.

659

:

I'll get my day's worth

of steps in that way.

660

:

But on stage.

661

:

It is important.

662

:

It goes back to that thing.

663

:

If it's not adding, it's taking away.

664

:

So everything has to be deliberate.

665

:

John: I like that all your movement

on stage should be volitional.

666

:

And certainly I feel for anyone

who's on stage for whatever reason,

667

:

if you are pacing around or rocking

or those kinds of things without

668

:

purpose, it makes you look unconfident.

669

:

Like it may be damages your credibility

from that sort of perspective.

670

:

So I think that's a very

valuable thing to pin onto.

671

:

Keith Kong: Yeah.

672

:

Not just that.

673

:

Have you ever heard someone say something

like, sit down, you're making me nervous,

674

:

or you get, you make people anxious

by moving or just patting your leg and

675

:

John: Yeah, mirror neurons, I guess there.

676

:

Keith Kong: Yeah.

677

:

Mirror neurons.

678

:

Exactly.

679

:

I.

680

:

John: So we pick up on

what's going on from stage.

681

:

And with the audience, you don't,

do you pay attention to, like how

682

:

they're sitting or how they're

physically responding to what you do?

683

:

Keith Kong: Yeah, absolutely.

684

:

It's that same thing.

685

:

If their feet or nose are pointed

towards the door, you're in trouble.

686

:

You can also gauge like people have

short spans sometimes, so I often tell,

687

:

I think the reason that I get booked.

688

:

For 45 minutes most often is because I

usually tell my clients and prospects,

689

:

I found this to be the sweet spot

where it feels like a complete show.

690

:

Everybody loves it.

691

:

It leaves them wanting

more, but it's not tired.

692

:

By the end of it, they're not.

693

:

not overdone.

694

:

The novelty hasn't worn off.

695

:

John: Yeah.

696

:

Keith Kong: So a 60 minute show is usually

where I push it to, maybe 70 minutes.

697

:

If we're in a theater and

it's something theatrical.

698

:

If you go any more than that, 90 minutes

you mentioned having seen Darren Brown.

699

:

There's usually an intermission

700

:

John: Yes.

701

:

Keith Kong: people would

go stir crazy without.

702

:

John: I think so when you are

performing, do you have I, I ask

703

:

'cause I do this as a speaker.

704

:

Do you have a conscience about this is

how I want to be showing up energetically.

705

:

This is what I'm aiming to project

out to my audience of how I want to

706

:

be showing up in the performance.

707

:

And what would that be if you do.

708

:

Keith Kong: Yeah, it comes down to

what do you want 'em to be saying in

709

:

the stalls when the show lets out.

710

:

They go to the bathroom and they're

thinking about the show that they just

711

:

saw, what do you want 'em to be thinking?

712

:

What do you want 'em to be saying?

713

:

Wow, that was incredible.

714

:

That was so mind blowing.

715

:

And they have, they're

just full of energy.

716

:

Or do you want them to go away

reflecting, thinking about their

717

:

identity and who they are as a person?

718

:

And there's no right or wrong answer.

719

:

It's up to the entertainer

or speaker or presenter.

720

:

To make that decision.

721

:

And so you decide on how you want 'em to

feel and then work backwards to determine

722

:

what you can do those thought provoking

questions or to just wow them in magic.

723

:

We have these things that are called ta-da

moments, and it's, you don't actually say

724

:

ta-da, but that's the gist of it, right?

725

:

There's

726

:

John: Yeah.

727

:

Keith Kong: thing happens

and the audience goes, wow.

728

:

But sometimes in mentalism.

729

:

We don't want that big applause

moment because, and sometimes we

730

:

do, but sometimes we don't because

that's not a natural response.

731

:

genuine amazement isn't my instinct

after that isn't to start clapping.

732

:

That's what we are trained to do.

733

:

John: Yeah.

734

:

Keith Kong: do something and it's

just silence for a moment because

735

:

everyone's mouth is just like.

736

:

and they're looking around.

737

:

The other day I did a show, it was

actually like a really informal thing.

738

:

And the audience, it was

like a hundred people.

739

:

They started Chanting Witch,

which that was a fun one.

740

:

John: Did you want them to be or were

you in a very religious environment?

741

:

Keith Kong: Thank you.

742

:

No, they, it was, they meant

well by and they were just

743

:

John: Oh good.

744

:

I know you've already had some great

successes with your career so far, and

745

:

you've got some exciting plans ahead.

746

:

I dunno if you're able to talk about

what you've got coming up right now,

747

:

but what's what can you share with us?

748

:

Keith Kong: It's funny that you

prefaced it like that because it's,

749

:

unfortunately there are some probably.

750

:

One of the biggest things that I'm

working on right now I'm not allowed

751

:

to say much about, but the things that

I am allowed to say are I'm working

752

:

on a book and it's going to have

a lot of the things that we talked

753

:

about today included and so much more.

754

:

It's like a psychological Swiss Army

knife, so tons of practical situational

755

:

psychology from the boardroom

to the bedroom, to the bathroom.

756

:

It's got everything in there

and I'm really happy with that.

757

:

We've got.

758

:

A section on memory techniques,

a section on the psychology

759

:

of attraction, psychology of

influence and persuasion sales.

760

:

It's so very excited about it,

and so I've been working on that.

761

:

I also just have a ton of

corporate events coming up.

762

:

I'm being booked out further

in advance than ever before.

763

:

I've got things booked

through mid:

764

:

That's not to say there's no

openings from now till then if you're

765

:

interested inquire, but it's great.

766

:

We've got tons of corporate events

coming up, national conferences award

767

:

shows and those types of things.

768

:

John: Great.

769

:

I will certainly be wanting to check

out your book once it's available and

770

:

even though it's stuff, you can't talk

about we wish you every success with

771

:

all of that and the stuff that you can

talk about as well for those who maybe

772

:

do want to come and find out a bit more

about you and maybe connect with you so

773

:

that they can stay tuned for what you've

got going on and what, when your book's

774

:

out and those kinds of things, what's

the best way for people to do that?

775

:

Keith Kong: Yeah, so I

will give you the link.

776

:

My website is kong mentalist.com,

777

:

KONG, mental IS t.com.

778

:

If you go to that website, if

you do kong mentalist.com/.

779

:

Links, L-I-N-K-S.

780

:

It will give you everything.

781

:

So you'll have the links to my Instagram,

YouTube, where to sign up for the mailing

782

:

list, and that way you'll be notified.

783

:

You'll be the first to know when that book

gets launched and everything like that.

784

:

So kong mentalist.com/links

785

:

will have everything.

786

:

And on most social medias,

I'm at Kong Mentalist.

787

:

John: Fantastic.

788

:

That's gonna be in the show notes for

anyone who just wants a link to click

789

:

on, but I'm sure you can find it.

790

:

It's been from what from

what Keith has just told you.

791

:

Keith, you've shared, you shared a

lot of great insights and there's

792

:

some nice little hacks and stuff

for people to pick out today and

793

:

it's been a fun conversation.

794

:

So I just wanna really thank

you for coming and being my

795

:

guest on present Influence.

796

:

Keith Kong: Yeah.

797

:

Thank you so much.

798

:

The time's just flown by.

799

:

This has been really fun.

800

:

John: It has.

801

:

Thanks so much.

802

:

I wonder if you're anything like

me and have a few thoughts about

803

:

some of the things that Keith

talked about in that conversation.

804

:

For me, it was fascinating to

hear about how we pretty much

805

:

all work with the same triggers.

806

:

I.

807

:

But there are sometimes subtle

things that we can tune into

808

:

that might give us an edge.

809

:

Things like looking at the

context of a situation.

810

:

One element that Keith talked about,

particularly in relation to that, was

811

:

like maybe how someone's dressed, looking

at their shoes, to give you a sense

812

:

of how they take care of themselves

or how they think about themselves.

813

:

If you are in one of their

environments, like their office

814

:

or somewhere in their home, looking

at the context of the situation.

815

:

So you're not just looking at the person,

you're looking at them in the context of

816

:

the space that you can pick up on some

cues around them, as to how they might

817

:

like to be talked to, or what you, what

they might appreciate you focusing in on.

818

:

Notice the things that they kind

of want you to notice, even if it

819

:

hasn't been super conscious from

them, what is it that they've made on

820

:

display that they want you to notice?

821

:

It really was interesting to me to have

that talk about NLP and they note that

822

:

I'm pretty much with Keith on that.

823

:

Some aspects of it are great,

some aspects of it, not so much.

824

:

And there's bits I use and

bits I tend to dismiss.

825

:

Even having paid a small fortune to

do NLP trainings, I'm very nearly went

826

:

into becoming an NLP trainer myself, so.

827

:

Kind of glad these days that I didn't,

and the whole thing, I don't know, I,

828

:

I could be wrong about this, but the

whole NLP movement thing does seem to

829

:

have died off somewhat, thankfully.

830

:

Although I'm certainly aware that

people like Tony Robbins is still

831

:

doing very well with, with their

events, and some people think they're

832

:

wonderful, some people less so.

833

:

I'm not gonna get into it here.

834

:

I'll say this though, I've always

been a little on the fence with

835

:

hypnosis as to how much of a thing

is it, is it really just we're

836

:

convincing ourselves to do things?

837

:

Is it more that somebody else

can actually guide as we go

838

:

into particular trance states?

839

:

There are elements of it that

I'm like, yeah, I get it.

840

:

But I, it's so hard to

define and really pinpoint.

841

:

I see it being more related to, as perhaps

Keith was saying, like meditative state

842

:

mindfulness and the lights where we kind

of can slow our conscious thinking down a

843

:

little bit, and maybe influence ourselves

more effectively in those states.

844

:

So whilst I wouldn't necessarily suggest

that everyone needs to go out and

845

:

study mentalism, unless you actually

want to be a stage mentalist or mind

846

:

reader or something like that, then

it might not be the thing for you.

847

:

But there are certainly some tips

and tricks we can pick up on.

848

:

And as professional communicators,

we should pay attention to the things

849

:

that can have great influence with

our staging now, we will always hear

850

:

people talking about things like

vocal variety, especially if you

851

:

ever go to a Toastmasters or public

speaking club, is one of the bits

852

:

of feedback that comes back more

often than just about anything else.

853

:

But to know that it's a tool of influence

and that playing with the speed that

854

:

you talk with can be that as well.

855

:

And playing with your volume, so

many different vocal elements that

856

:

can captivate your audience, that

can keep them engaged and even

857

:

enthralled in what you're talking about.

858

:

These are really good things to play

with and I like this whole principle

859

:

of it's far easier to play with

these things when you have a well

860

:

practiced rehearsed talk that you can

go out into the world and deliver.

861

:

It's gonna make it easier to do

the finessing, to be a little more

862

:

improvisational, to be in the moment.

863

:

But as Keith dutifully reminded us not to

get ourselves stuck into a rut where we

864

:

are just doing it from memory and maybe

even just phoning it in after a time.

865

:

We have to find the ways to keep

our presentations fresh for us

866

:

as well as for our audiences.

867

:

So if you have already created

a keynote talk, great, but

868

:

it is not carved in stone.

869

:

It should be a living thing

that you get to update.

870

:

It's not like when we write a book and

you have to publish it and then that's it.

871

:

Boom, it's published.

872

:

Sure you can do a revised version later

on, but it's not really the same as

873

:

being able to, maybe the next time you

do a presentation, bring in a new bit

874

:

of supporting evidence or a bit of a

development from where you've been at.

875

:

Things do develop, we

learn more over time.

876

:

We see things a little differently

and sometimes we find out the things

877

:

that we've been teaching for years,

878

:

we probably need to stop teaching,

and not necessarily that they're

879

:

wrong, but maybe they've just

been superseded by something else.

880

:

And we should be able to step into

those things and not be dogmatic about

881

:

how we do things, how we perform.

882

:

It will get stale for us, and it

will get stale for audiences too.

883

:

We absolutely must adapt, at least

small elements of our presentations

884

:

to the audiences we're in front of,

to the cities and countries that we

885

:

are in when we are delivering them.

886

:

Let's personalize little aspects

of it and we should always aim,

887

:

I think, to improve one particular

aspect of our talk and presentation

888

:

might be how we say something.

889

:

It might be changing up

a story a little bit.

890

:

It might be playing with

the order of things.

891

:

Keep it fresh for you and be open

to what actually makes more sense.

892

:

And some of that's gonna come from

audience feedback and some of it's

893

:

gonna come from what feels right and in

flow for you when you're on the stage.

894

:

Lots of things to consider

from this episode, and I hope

895

:

that you've enjoyed it too.

896

:

Now if you are looking to punch

up your keynote, or maybe you

897

:

haven't written your keynote yet

and you want a bit of help and

898

:

guidance around that, get in touch.

899

:

You can find out more about

me@presentinfluence.com

900

:

or come and connect with me on LinkedIn

and shoot me a message there and we could

901

:

have a little chat about where you're at

as a speaker right now, where you want

902

:

to get to and what's available here

to get you to where you want to get to.

903

:

So don't be afraid to

reach out and get in touch.

904

:

I'm still looking for a handful of people

who would like to be coached on the show.

905

:

So that's a free coaching session for you.

906

:

30, maybe 40 minutes.

907

:

We'll see how we go.

908

:

But the catch or the cost, if you like,

is that that coaching call is gonna be

909

:

broadcast, is going to be published in

the podcast, so other people will be able

910

:

to watch on YouTube or listen on podcast

channels and to your coaching session.

911

:

So we all get to learn

and benefit from it.

912

:

While we speak is a private coaching

session, but it's not gonna stay private.

913

:

That is the agreement that we make.

914

:

If you are interested in being

coached on Present Influence, whether

915

:

it's developing your keynote or

even getting started as a speaker.

916

:

If you checked out the first

coaching episode with Julia

917

:

Packwood, you will know that

that was a great coaching episode.

918

:

Julia's just getting started with

her speaking career and I think

919

:

we got made some really great

progress in that one session.

920

:

You might be a little further along

with your speaking journey than Julia.

921

:

Either way, get in touch if you are

open to being coached on the show and

922

:

maybe even helping others through your

coaching session, maybe you just wanna

923

:

listen to the show and that's fine.

924

:

I absolutely appreciate you for

doing that and for tuning in today.

925

:

Now, I hope you are already

subscribed to the show.

926

:

If not, it only takes a moment to do that.

927

:

You can click the plus button

on Spotify or follow on Apple

928

:

Podcasts, or maybe it's something

different on your podcast provider.

929

:

Or if you are watching on YouTube and

you've got this far into the video

930

:

and you haven't already pressed,

like and subscribe, please do and

931

:

maybe even leave a comment as well.

932

:

What has been the biggest takeaway

for you from this episode?

933

:

I am gonna be back on Friday breaking

down a story that I delivered just a

934

:

week ago, last Sunday at a storytelling

contest here in Valencia, Spain.

935

:

It won me top raconteur of the night.

936

:

I got voted the top storyteller for the

evening, it is a bit of a personal story.

937

:

But I hope you'll enjoy it.

938

:

It's certainly got some laughs in there

and some ooh moments in there as well.

939

:

And I'm gonna break down how that

story ended up getting put together.

940

:

I will probably try and get the organizer

for these events onto the show as well.

941

:

Because I think what he's doing

around helping people get on stage,

942

:

doing storytelling and running the

workshops that he's doing, is something

943

:

that's worth sharing with you too.

944

:

All right, so I hope

you'll join me for that.

945

:

At this moment, I haven't completely

decided which of the next of my queued

946

:

up guest interviews I'm gonna bring you.

947

:

There is a reason for that.

948

:

I might share it with you next week.

949

:

However, I will be back on

Wednesday and Friday next week

950

:

with more Present Influence.

951

:

And so wherever you're going, whatever

you're doing, have an amazing rest of day.

952

:

See you next time.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence
The podcast that helps professional communicators learn the skills that increase influence, impact and authority.

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for John Ball

John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.

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