Feeling Ignored: How to Be Heard Without Shouting

John: 00:00:00

What do you do when you feel ignored?

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It could be at work, online

or even by your own friends.

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In this episode, my good coaching

friend James and I get together

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and get real about the moments when

it feels like no one's listening.

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We are gonna swap some stories from our

own lives and explore why being ignored

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cut so deep, and share some strategies

that helped us to turn that around.

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From setting boundaries with

friends to persistence on stage.

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If you've ever wondered how to stop

shrinking back and start being heard,

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you're going to want to stay with

us right the way through this one.

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Welcome into the virtual studio, James.

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this all came about from. We both

coach each other and, Sometimes I

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think we both sort of come into onto

the calls sometimes wondering what

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we're gonna talk about, but it usually

ends up being something interesting.

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Right.

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James Kilgarriff: you shared

the other day about reaching out

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to old contacts or something.

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You wanna share more about that and

this p piece about being ignored?

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John: Well, yeah, one of the

things that sort of led into that

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conversation was I'd been having

a conversation with another friend

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about healthy boundaries with friends.

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Friends who don't really act like friends.

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And I kind of felt like people who

I had good relationship with and

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considered to be friends weren't still

showing up as friends in my life.

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Yeah.

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doing things that.

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Generally in a friendship you think that's

not really on, and just an example of

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that would be people who 'cause I live

in Spain, like you do, people who are

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coming and staying from the UK or wherever

nearby to where I was living and not even

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letting me know they were here or I'm

not trying to arrange any kind of meetup.

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How that, I don't know.

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There's something about it to me, I

can't imagine, I can't really imagine

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being away for a week or two weeks,

staying near to where I know one of my

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friends is and not even saying, Hey,

do you wanna come and meet up or do

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something together whilst we're here?

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Grab lunch, coffee, whatever.

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And uh, and so this sort thing, when

me think, are we really friends?

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Like if you don't, if you don't

act like a friend, are you?

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So there were times, there are

times definitely where I've, where

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I was feeling ignored by people

who were supposed to be friends.

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I'm thinking, well, okay, I,

I have to draw a line somewhat

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with this and say, you know what?

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I don't think we are friends if

you're not treating me like a friend.

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And but it led to us talking about

how often we feel ignored in general.

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I was talking about having been looking

for some opportunities and, and how

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now even just like it's only being

over 50, he can end up feeling very

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James Kilgarriff: ignored

enough LinkedIn jobs.

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I know a friend of mine's a consultant,

really clever guy in his fifties.

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He can't get a job because he is,

he's overqualified, but really

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is a lot of it's down to age.

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John: Yeah.

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And it sucks.

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The, the feeling is the

feeling is just so horrible.

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it is that sort of Saturday night and

you're on your own and you, you want

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someone to talk to and you call your

friends and nobody's, nobody's around.

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It is that, it is that kind of feeling

is, it's, it's, it's a bit low and,

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well, since I've seen is I, it's some

of the opportunities I've been, I'm just

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gonna stop doing it because I feel worse

doing it than I would feel not doing it.

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And that put my energy and focus

into other things, because it's

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not really what I want anyway.

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it's very easy to, to feel ignored.

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Yeah.

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I, I work with a lot of people a lot

of the time who have that feeling,

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whether it's in their professional

environments or whether it's, whether

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it's in, in other areas of their life,

that they just feel that they're not

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being heard, they're being, being

ignored, passed over or whatever.

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Did, is this something you,

you come across a lot as well?

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James Kilgarriff: It happens

in me, it happens in people.

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mean, I coach people in big companies

and team leaders and stuff like

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that, and they, you know, they can

go through similar insecure kind.

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I call it insecure thinking,

being ignored, but I know

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it's got a feeling to it.

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and then what happens when you, you start.

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Allowing that habitual

thinking to continue.

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Well, for me, when I feel ignored, I

want us, we talked about this then.

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Then I wanna be safe for my own thing.

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I don't want to go out.

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If I feel ignored, then I

think, well, what's the point?

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Then I kind of like I contract.

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Yeah.

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Which is what we tend to do.

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We kind of go into this safe.

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Space, which I think comes from

the early years when you grow up.

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This is the safe way of doing it.

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Well, you, you are sorry I use that body

language, but that's how, how I feel

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John: you, you asked me the other

day about, where what, what the

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benefits were of being ignored.

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Like where, what's the good side of that?

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Yeah.

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which was a, an interesting question

that got me thinking like, well, yeah,

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there is, there is a good side of

that because I do like kind of being

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left alone and I do, and I do like.

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It's just that feeling of safety.

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The unknown is a little scary sometimes.

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Yeah.

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And so you have that feeling of

safety where things stay the same,

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but homeostasis or keeping things

the same generally isn't good.

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It might feel safe on some level because

it's what you know, but it's, it's

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really not a good or healthy thing.

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But I think there are possibly are

part, at least parts of me that

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don't hate being ignored that maybe

even encourage it to some degree.

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So there may be a little bit of.

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Internal conflict there as well.

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James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

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So maybe there's a part of us that is

cool about being ignored, but then the

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other one that maybe the older, the

younger parts of oneself was ignored.

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I have parents ignored or whatever.

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Then you feel safe.

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But there's another part of you that

says, okay, let's try, let's try this.

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Let's go out here, let's try that.

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Let's take a bit of a risk.

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how do you reconcile?

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I mean, it's just called

parts in the brain for people.

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I know we coach and we do

parts, sometimes called parts

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integration, but imagine there's

just different parts of your brain.

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One's going like that, and the

other one says, let's go out.

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How do you bridge them?

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How do you create a bridge

or how do you reconcile that?

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John: You don't always.

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sometimes it just comes down

to, which parts of use strongest

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at the, in that moment, right?

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James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So the one that's contracted

down is what it, what it is.

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There's nothing wrong with it.

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It's just a ha habitual way of living.

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I don't think one should

judge them and we do.

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I can judge myself for being

weak and ignored and poor me,

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and then, and if I start judging,

that just adds to the story.

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Yeah.

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So I need to drop that judgment.

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John: You got, you got me thinking

about when, when I was younger as well,

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because you asked me something about

whether this had come up in the past.

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And certainly I, I was one of

those kids, I think we both agreed

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with, basically we felt this.

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I've never really felt like I quite

fitted in with everyone else and

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was, was a little bit different.

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You know, I had, I had friends, but

I wasn't one of the popular kids.

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De definitely wasn't that.

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you know, I wasn't super talented.

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I wasn't super popular or anything like

that, and never really quite fitted in.

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And that, that sort of showed

up as a theme again and again.

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I think, never, never quite fitted

into the mainstream of things.

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And as a kid that's not.

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Doesn't feel good because the things

you want, especially when you're in your

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teens, you want to fit in, you want to

be popular, you want to be attractive

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to people and all that sort of thing.

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and so not fitting into the mainstream

feels like the worst thing possible when

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you're a teenager, but the older I've got,

the more I realize how much of an asset

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it is not fitting into the mainstream.

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Like there are the ways of thinking

and approach to things and experiences

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I've had that would never have happened

if I had more fitted in like a jigsaw

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piece into the main part of the puzzle.

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James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

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and then we think I'm not fitting

in, when I was at school, something

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didn't fit in or when I, when I

was in sales some years ago into.

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Sales teams, they were all very kind

of attempt loads of pint, severe,

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and I, I wasn't ready out where I

felt out of it, so I thought there

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must be something wrong with me.

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John: Right?

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James Kilgarriff: That's my mindset.

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There must be something wrong with me.

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There's nothing wrong with me.

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It's just I act the way.

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There are millions and millions of people

out there who don't feel part of something

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and that's okay, but what's good about

not feeling part of that sometimes?

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Well.

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I tend to sort of go deeper

into things and learn things.

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And I wouldn't be a coach

had I not had this part.

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it goes into these deeper aspects

of what is life all about?

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What am I about?

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What motivates me, and stuff like that.

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Yeah.

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So there's a benefit to it and

there's no, it goes from I thought

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there was something wrong with me.

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Well, wow, this is a gift.

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Am I gonna look at the gift or

am I gonna look at the curse?

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John: Definitely there's always

the right frame if the right

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frame to take with something is

to look at the opportunity always.

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And I, I grew up, Don't traveling

to living in D different places

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or all over the place, having to

make new friends every time you

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moved and all that kind of stuff.

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It was interesting.

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I don't, I don't have regrets about that.

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I don't, I'm not one of those people

that has friends for when I was like

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four years old or anything like that

because we moved around too much and

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ages where I just would never have

kept in touch with people anyway.

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But I'm okay.

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I'm okay with it because it also

left me more of a sort of global

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citizen, if you're like,

I can be home anywhere.

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Anywhere can be home.

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so I don't feel like one

place is home for me.

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Which, which I think is, is a positive.

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Well, the reason I'm bringing it up

is because, one of the things that

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I saw with my dad lot, all those

work had us traveling around a lot.

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He had risen up through the ranks

of the business that he was in,

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and I found out more as

I got older, of course.

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But he also kept getting.

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Passed over for a promotion or people who

he ended up training were getting promoted

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above him because they were like, I'm

graduate programs and stuff like this.

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And my dad didn't have all of that.

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And and he just kind of went with it

and accepted it as that's how it is.

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And I guess if I'm like, okay,

that, that's up to him to do that.

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If that's what, if that's how he

wants to handle that situation.

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But I've made a decision

that I, I can't be like that.

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I'm not gonna be ignored.

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I'm not gonna be, if I get passed

over, I'm gonna say something

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because somebody's, if I am being

ignored, you are gonna know about it.

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And, and so that is something that I

feel that was a positive lesson for

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me to take away from that saying, you

know, I could do the same thing as my

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dad and just hope that people notice

me and treat me well, or I speak

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up and say something, do something,

you know, let my voice be heard.

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I, I made that choice to do that.

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So, you know, this, this is

very much a situational thing.

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I'm not, not so much talking about

social kind of things, but, there

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are, there are many times and places

in life where if we just accept that,

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that we are being ignored, we may be

even have come to start thinking that

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we should be, that we deserve to be.

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I knew

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James Kilgarriff: I should be

because my dad was ignored or

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my mom was ignored or whatever.

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My brother was ignored.

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John: I don't have the right background,

I don't have the right popularity.

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I don't fit in with the

right groups of people.

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I'm not mainstream or whatever else.

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It's like, well, maybe those

are valid reasons to be ignored.

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So you might actually end up buying

into, and I think I, I did to a great

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degree for a long time, buy into

the story of why probably should.

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James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

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It's a thought I should be

ignored, is a, it's a story, it's a

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thought, and maybe it's not yours.

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Maybe it's not your thought.

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Maybe you got it from somebody

else, but you've taken on, you've

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inherited a thought from someone else.

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That sometimes a lot of our thoughts

in our own, but we, we think they're

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on and we start believing in them.

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John: Because I work with a lot of

speakers and communicators particularly,

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it does show up regularly as an issue.

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And I would say, I don't think this

is a tool sexist to say, it is much

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more common for women to feel ignored,

especially in workplaces, in speaking

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situations, in professional environments.

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Yeah.

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Is much more common and to feel that

their voices aren't really being heard

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or they aren't really being recognized

in any sort of significant way.

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Not to say it doesn't happen to men

as well, but I hear it much more from

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female clients than from their A clients.

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James Kilgarriff: Oh, what an opportunity

for a woman who's been feeling ignored

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and notice a mother was being ignored

to stand up and say, get a message out.

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No, that's it.

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And the buck stops here.

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I'm not gonna.

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Allow this story to play out my

mind for the rest of my life.

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Why don't I've got something to say

to the world about whatever, and go

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say it and speak it and present it.

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You know, you teach people to present.

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John: the, some of the issues start to

become, well, how do you present that?

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Because I think one of the, one of

the challenges can be like, if this is

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something you are allowed to keep going

and going it frustrates you and you

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bottle, bottle up all the frustration

and the pain around that, there's a

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good chance that at some point it's

just the, the lids gonna blow you will.

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Have a response to some situation that

you won't be happy with, and could

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actually cause some problems for you.

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So you don't really want to get

to that situation where you have

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to blow your lid just to be heard.

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And it might actually be some

unsuspecting soul just says the

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wrong thing at the right time.

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But that whole stole experiences

suddenly, suddenly comes together

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and, you know, the champagne court

pops and it sprays everywhere.

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So, alright.

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It's, it's important to figure out how

you're going to do this in the right way.

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Like make the decision in advance.

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I refuse to be ignored, so how am I

gonna make myself heard without much my,

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James Kilgarriff: it's an

assertive way, Ryan say, right.

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I want people to hear me now, so everyone.

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Yeah.

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Rather than being against

something before something.

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If that makes sense.

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But I mean, how, how do you help

people go through the, the step to be

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kind of like assertive and firm and

calm who feel ignored or feel left

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out or feel in a certain injustice?

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John: This is a very, a very situational

thing, but very often one of the type

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places where this comes up the most is, is

people in meetings, they find in meetings

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with, whether it's with people who they

actually work with or, or in general,

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like, professional meetings that their

voice may not be recognized or heard.

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So I think it is a little bit of a,

well, yeah, a little bit of persistence

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here and listen and be gentle about

this to a, to a degree, but the gentle

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but firm side of things of saying,

well, you can say you, you can't really

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say you're not listening to me because

you're gonna shut down conversation.

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You're gonna, put barriers up there.

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So it's better to say something

like, I'm not feeling heard.

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Right now, so I'm wondering if I

can put this in another way or, or

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expressive and, and we can have a

conversation about what's really

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being said here so that I can make

sure that I am actually being heard.

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Because there are situations where you

may want to do that outside of a, of a

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meeting where you say someone, you, I, I

got some of the behavior I saw in that.

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didn't I, I didn't feel

comfortable with it.

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I'm not saying you necessarily

did anything wrong, it just

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felt like, you know what?

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You didn't pay attention to me or to

anything that I was saying, or you went,

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I didn't feel like you were taking me

seriously, which may not be the case,

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but is that something we can talk about?

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This is very diplomatic ways

of approaching these kinds

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of situations, I think, and

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James Kilgarriff: yeah,

304

: 00:15:29

John: I think it is better in

professional situations to aim

305

: 00:15:33

for diplomacy unless someone is

being outright horrible or real.

306

: 00:15:38

Yeah.

307

: 00:15:38

In which case, I feel like, if you,

if you can feel strong enough to, and

308

: 00:15:42

you, and it's not gonna get you sacked,

although it might be circumstances,

309

: 00:15:46

but you're okay with that to just

say, this is, I'm, I'm not happy

310

: 00:15:49

being spoken to like this, or, yeah.

311

: 00:15:51

James Kilgarriff: I've got an issue

sometimes with anger, but there's,

312

: 00:15:53

you can use anger in a very positive

way where you say, you know what?

313

: 00:15:56

Enough is enough.

314

: 00:15:57

I'm done with not being heard.

315

: 00:16:01

I'm done with feeling ignored.

316

: 00:16:03

I'm just done with it.

317

: 00:16:04

You draw a line in the sand and you

say, right from now on, I'm gonna

318

: 00:16:07

start moving in a new direction.

319

: 00:16:10

John: I think you do have, you do have

to make the decision for yourself.

320

: 00:16:14

Yeah.

321

: 00:16:14

I, I certainly felt like I did.

322

: 00:16:16

Right.

323

: 00:16:16

it, it had, it was definitely a decision

point for me of saying, you know what?

324

: 00:16:19

I'm not prepared to go through my

life being ignored or have these

325

: 00:16:23

situations where I'm feeling left out.

326

: 00:16:25

I have to have those

boundaries around that.

327

: 00:16:28

I haven't always enforced them as

strongly as I might want to, but

328

: 00:16:33

they are there, and I do generally

at some point, you know, even the.

329

: 00:16:38

Even when there have been maybe exceptions

to the rule that I haven't enforced

330

: 00:16:42

my own boundaries as much as I should

have, at some point I usually end up

331

: 00:16:46

doing it and wishing I'd done it sooner.

332

: 00:16:50

So I think it is generally better to

have, have that decision in advance

333

: 00:16:54

because it, our brains, brains just

aren't really, they don't function in

334

: 00:16:59

a way that we can just keep making the

decisions or do everything spontaneously.

335

: 00:17:04

It's far easier to have these

heuristics, these mental shortcuts,

336

: 00:17:08

which are already decided in advance.

337

: 00:17:10

and, and I find this with, something

as simple as going and working

338

: 00:17:14

out every day, which, which I do.

339

: 00:17:16

but I never used to, but I do because

I don't, I don't anymore have that

340

: 00:17:21

argument or discussion in my head in

the morning and am I gonna do this?

341

: 00:17:24

It's already decided

that the alarm goes off.

342

: 00:17:26

I get up and I go out to the gym.

343

: 00:17:28

So the decision is already made, and

it's a heuristic, it's a mental shortcut.

344

: 00:17:32

My, my kit's ready to go.

345

: 00:17:35

I don't give myself any reasons to

allow that discussion around it in my

346

: 00:17:40

head of the now, the part of me that

would rather sleep in or against the

347

: 00:17:44

part of me that says, you're gonna

feel better for doing this afterwards.

348

: 00:17:47

And the more consistently I've

done that, that the easier it, it

349

: 00:17:51

has become anything where we can

give ourselves these shortcuts.

350

: 00:17:55

Like, I wonder in this kind of situation,

this is how I show up, or this is

351

: 00:17:58

my boundary, this is my decision.

352

: 00:17:59

It makes it easier to know exactly

how you should be showing up and

353

: 00:18:04

responding in those situations.

354

: 00:18:07

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

355

: 00:18:08

I like what you said about the making the

decision to go to the gym every morning.

356

: 00:18:12

It's easy to allow your

moods to take you out.

357

: 00:18:15

John: Yeah, yeah.

358

: 00:18:16

James Kilgarriff: if you follow your

mood, it's just gonna sabotage you.

359

: 00:18:19

And I know mood are strong, but whether

I'm feeling in a mood or not, I decided

360

: 00:18:25

that you, you also set the conditions up.

361

: 00:18:27

You've got your gym bag

ready in the morning.

362

: 00:18:29

You have to go looking for your stuff.

363

: 00:18:31

So you're sending conditions

up to go to the gym or whatever

364

: 00:18:34

it is that you wanna do.

365

: 00:18:36

Yeah.

366

: 00:18:36

That's so important.

367

: 00:18:37

John: But you know, one of the, one of the

big reasons in life why people don't take

368

: 00:18:40

action is because they don't feel like it.

369

: 00:18:43

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

370

: 00:18:44

John: So that's exactly what you're

talking about here of like your mood

371

: 00:18:48

is like, well yeah, the chances are you

aren't gonna feel like it and if your

372

: 00:18:51

mood is di dictating your action, then

you are not gonna have a lot to show for

373

: 00:18:56

that other than probably some frustration.

374

: 00:18:59

Well, you end up

375

: 00:19:00

James Kilgarriff: becoming your mood.

376

: 00:19:01

I know I woke up this morning in a

mood, shall I do exercise or not?

377

: 00:19:03

I thought, Nope, I drew a line that

I'm, I'm gonna do, do my exercise.

378

: 00:19:09

I went for a walk as well and I

wasn't in, in the greatest of moods,

379

: 00:19:13

but I'm not gonna do it from my

mood, but I'm aware of the mood.

380

: 00:19:17

It's a bit like getting on a,

a bus with a lone, imagine the

381

: 00:19:20

lone mood bus coming along.

382

: 00:19:22

Do I have to get on that bus?

383

: 00:19:25

automatically We got on the lone mood

bus, but no, the load move bus is here.

384

: 00:19:29

But you're saying I'm

not gonna go on that bus.

385

: 00:19:32

I'm gonna go to the gym.

386

: 00:19:34

But you, that needs awareness, doesn't it?

387

: 00:19:37

John: It does.

388

: 00:19:38

It does mean you have to

think about things a lot.

389

: 00:19:40

And this is one of the things that came

up in our conversation about how I feel

390

: 00:19:45

like you can always, you can always really

tell when somebody has done some work on

391

: 00:19:49

themselves, like some kind of reflection

or personal development because they have

392

: 00:19:53

usually that bit more self-awareness than

most people do because a lot of people

393

: 00:19:58

don't really stop to reflect on themselves

or the lives or think about who they

394

: 00:20:02

are or how they want to be showing up

or the sort of results they want to see.

395

: 00:20:05

And so taking that time out is, is not

always easy in busy, in a busy life, but

396

: 00:20:11

without it, everything's just gonna keep

397

: 00:20:13

carrying on the hustle and buser of the

world will, will keep carrying you through

398

: 00:20:16

from cradle to grave if you let it without

taking that step back and saying, that

399

: 00:20:21

this isn't how I want to be continuing.

400

: 00:20:24

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

401

: 00:20:24

So reflection time is important.

402

: 00:20:26

Just reflect, what's, what's,

working in my life, what isn't.

403

: 00:20:30

John: Yeah, exactly.

404

: 00:20:31

That kind of.

405

: 00:20:33

So, we were talking about how I

was moved away from that, that sort

406

: 00:20:37

of being ignored kind of thing.

407

: 00:20:40

I think one of the places where I've

probably felt it the most has been,

408

: 00:20:44

online because it is very easy to

feel like you're sort of shouting

409

: 00:20:48

into the void online, you know,

posting YouTube videos or social

410

: 00:20:52

media content all over the place.

411

: 00:20:53

It's very easy to be ignored.

412

: 00:20:56

But it's also very easy to undervalue the

people who do view you or do follow you

413

: 00:21:02

and, and do pay attention to what you do.

414

: 00:21:05

And, and I was thinking about this

as I was doing, I was doing open mic,

415

: 00:21:08

standup comedy last night, and I was

thinking about this last night and this

416

: 00:21:12

morning I, I tend to wine things over

in my head anyway around this stuff.

417

: 00:21:16

But, that open mics are.

418

: 00:21:19

Open mic nights are an opportunity to

test out material or for new comics,

419

: 00:21:25

which is kind of what I am really,

my third, my third time I think doing

420

: 00:21:30

open mic, for new comics to get some

experience and try to develop, you know,

421

: 00:21:35

there's, there's an expectation and I

even finding myself, having it, having

422

: 00:21:39

this expectation of myself last night

of I should already be at the standard

423

: 00:21:44

of a professional comedian and I'm not.

424

: 00:21:48

And it's gonna, it's gonna take time if

I want to get to that kind of standard.

425

: 00:21:55

But is that really, now, I dunno

if that's really the goal anyway,

426

: 00:21:58

but the expectation is kind of

there and, and I think sometimes

427

: 00:22:02

even with open mic audiences.

428

: 00:22:05

That was, we were chatting about Iang

with some of the other comedians about

429

: 00:22:09

open mic nights, and one guy was saying

he did this open mic in New York.

430

: 00:22:13

I said, yeah, the audience is, there

are, are a little different because

431

: 00:22:17

generally they're okay, but some of them

will come in hoping that some famous

432

: 00:22:21

comedian will come in and test out

their material and they wanna see that.

433

: 00:22:25

So they don't have a lot of tolerance

for the, for the new people who are just

434

: 00:22:30

testing stuff out, getting some

experience, and aren't at that

435

: 00:22:33

polished professional level yet either.

436

: 00:22:36

And, and so to having that

expectation of yourself, of

437

: 00:22:39

well, you should already be here.

438

: 00:22:42

I should already be every joke

should be landing, every, every,

439

: 00:22:45

everything should be a success.

440

: 00:22:47

You know, I, I was watching the

playback of, I recorded the whole thing.

441

: 00:22:50

I was watching a playback and

he's oh, there were a couple

442

: 00:22:51

of groans for s which is okay.

443

: 00:22:54

There was responses to everything,

but it wasn't all laughs.

444

: 00:22:57

Yeah.

445

: 00:22:58

But yeah, there were,

there were laughs as well.

446

: 00:23:00

And so I think, well, yeah, there

were, people weren't like falling

447

: 00:23:03

over hysterical laughter like they

had to do with professional comics,

448

: 00:23:08

but I'm being hard on myself.

449

: 00:23:11

I got laughs.

450

: 00:23:13

I got up and did this.

451

: 00:23:14

James Kilgarriff: Yeah, you did it.

452

: 00:23:15

You stood up, you took action.

453

: 00:23:17

Risk is, I could have been

ignored, criticized, whatever,

454

: 00:23:20

but you know, we worked with

Harker who was a platform speaker.

455

: 00:23:24

I know.

456

: 00:23:24

He is retired now.

457

: 00:23:25

Person, development

speaker, he had a quote.

458

: 00:23:28

Every master was once a disaster.

459

: 00:23:30

Yeah.

460

: 00:23:30

You don't just become master, a

master at something in 10 minutes.

461

: 00:23:34

No.

462

: 00:23:34

And you might get ignored for the first

coup couple of performances, but you gotta

463

: 00:23:39

keep persisting on whatever you wanna do.

464

: 00:23:42

Alright.

465

: 00:23:42

If they ignore me, they ignore me.

466

: 00:23:44

But if you go back, if you go to your

old pro and say, oh, they ignored me.

467

: 00:23:47

I better shut down and stay

safe and not go out anymore.

468

: 00:23:51

Well that.

469

: 00:23:53

John: This is exactly it.

470

: 00:23:55

This is exactly it.

471

: 00:23:56

Like the, the first guy who was

up last night, and he wasn't

472

: 00:23:59

the only one that this happened

to, but the first guy was up.

473

: 00:24:02

He completely bombed.

474

: 00:24:03

his whole act bombed.

475

: 00:24:04

There's only like myself, it was

only his third time doing open mic.

476

: 00:24:08

So, it's like, again, probably being

really hard on himself about it.

477

: 00:24:12

But I chatted with him

afterwards and said, look, we

478

: 00:24:15

say, oh yeah, I kind of bombed.

479

: 00:24:17

I'm not gonna lie.

480

: 00:24:17

Yeah, he pretty much did.

481

: 00:24:20

There's, there's no doubt about it.

482

: 00:24:21

No laughs And the audience were, weren't

quite buying into the acts and stuff.

483

: 00:24:26

Something didn't quite land.

484

: 00:24:28

So, but like everything doesn't

mean that the jokes can't work.

485

: 00:24:32

They, it means they may need work.

486

: 00:24:34

Your delivery may need work.

487

: 00:24:36

You have to play with this

stuff, tinker with it.

488

: 00:24:38

This is what professionals do anyway.

489

: 00:24:42

I said, we, you will be back

for another open mic night,

490

: 00:24:45

right.

491

: 00:24:45

It hasn't put you off.

492

: 00:24:46

He, oh, no, no, I'll be back.

493

: 00:24:47

I'll be back.

494

: 00:24:47

And it's like, that's

exactly the attitude of

495

: 00:24:49

James Kilgarriff: Exactly.

496

: 00:24:50

John: You're not gonna get better at stuff

unless you stick with it and go through,

497

: 00:24:54

I think Seth Godin calls it the dip.

498

: 00:24:56

Such a good book.

499

: 00:24:57

The Dip.

500

: 00:24:57

Yeah.

501

: 00:24:58

We haven't read it, but, but we

have to go through the dip and.

502

: 00:25:03

We have to suck at stuff for a while.

503

: 00:25:05

Or have the failures.

504

: 00:25:07

Yeah.

505

: 00:25:07

And have the times where

we bomb to get it there.

506

: 00:25:09

And if we're being ignored, like you

said, big ignored, we have to keep

507

: 00:25:12

coming back and have some persistence

with it and make that decision of it's

508

: 00:25:17

not failure, it's just, or we have to

keep failure that way to the success.

509

: 00:25:20

It's.

510

: 00:25:21

James Kilgarriff: As I say in

Silicon Valley, fell forward fast.

511

: 00:25:24

And like anything else, we can try out

a new idea, a new speech, a new message.

512

: 00:25:29

If you're a platform speaker,

don't expect to get it right.

513

: 00:25:31

First time.

514

: 00:25:32

It might take four, five, six,

they call it, success by iteration.

515

: 00:25:36

You keep trying this, trying

that, trying this, trying that.

516

: 00:25:38

It's gonna fail.

517

: 00:25:39

People are not laughing.

518

: 00:25:41

You just keep going.

519

: 00:25:42

And if you give up,

then okay, you give up.

520

: 00:25:45

But maybe after 50 times it

is still not working and maybe

521

: 00:25:48

you need to look at that.

522

: 00:25:49

John: I think ultra as well.

523

: 00:25:50

We hold ourselves to the standards of

the people who are most successful, and

524

: 00:25:54

that that's not always the best standard.

525

: 00:25:57

you're comparing, you're comparing

your step one to someone else's

526

: 00:26:01

step 20, and it's, it's an unfair

comparison on yourself because these

527

: 00:26:05

people probably have been through.

528

: 00:26:08

The processes of the failures of

sucking and stuff, they probably

529

: 00:26:12

do have bad content out there.

530

: 00:26:14

Yeah.

531

: 00:26:14

But may.

532

: 00:26:15

Okay.

533

: 00:26:15

Maybe they've taken it down now

'cause they've got everything

534

: 00:26:18

polished and whatever else.

535

: 00:26:19

But, if you're feeling ignored online,

well, I think there's a few things

536

: 00:26:24

that, certainly advice I followed

of narrowed down the platforms where

537

: 00:26:28

you're trying to be, get attention.

538

: 00:26:31

Like if you are, if you are

business focused, then focus

539

: 00:26:34

may be more on LinkedIn.

540

: 00:26:36

I focus a bit more on YouTube now because

I was feeling like my podcast is being

541

: 00:26:41

ignored a lot on podcast channels and it's

very hard to get any traction and growth

542

: 00:26:46

on audio podcast channels, but it's a lot

easier to get that on YouTube and have had

543

: 00:26:52

a lot more, a lot more success with that.

544

: 00:26:55

A lot more downloads,

a lot more attention.

545

: 00:26:57

Is it at the level of people who are

successful in making tens of thousands

546

: 00:27:02

on YouTube where no it is not.

547

: 00:27:05

But am I gonna stick with it?

548

: 00:27:07

Absolutely, I am.

549

: 00:27:08

Yeah.

550

: 00:27:08

But it's still frustrating that you feel

like, well, I'm not, I'm not at that

551

: 00:27:13

level on, but you have to stay strategic

about it and stay on track with it.

552

: 00:27:17

I'm like, yeah, and change

553

: 00:27:18

James Kilgarriff: your approach

as you go along, right?

554

: 00:27:20

You've only one thing to another.

555

: 00:27:23

Well, yeah, how can I

see this differently?

556

: 00:27:25

What else can I do?

557

: 00:27:26

And it's just constantly

having an open mind.

558

: 00:27:28

We're talk, growth mindset.

559

: 00:27:30

Rather than the fixed one.

560

: 00:27:32

John: Yeah.

561

: 00:27:33

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

562

: 00:27:33

They're ignoring me.

563

: 00:27:34

It's not working.

564

: 00:27:35

I might as well give up.

565

: 00:27:36

Okay.

566

: 00:27:37

John: Again, that's a choice, and most

people would see that as a failure and a

567

: 00:27:41

lot of people won't try again afterwards.

568

: 00:27:43

They just say, all

right, well, I tried it.

569

: 00:27:44

I hear there's a lot from clients, Jake.

570

: 00:27:46

I tried it and it didn't work.

571

: 00:27:49

Okay.

572

: 00:27:50

Try it again.

573

: 00:27:51

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

574

: 00:27:51

In a different way.

575

: 00:27:52

Try.

576

: 00:27:53

Yeah.

577

: 00:27:54

It's a bit like standing in a room.

578

: 00:27:55

If I keep standing on the right

side of the room, I'm gonna see

579

: 00:27:58

the room from one perspective and I

think, well, that's how the room is.

580

: 00:28:03

But maybe I need to move to

the left side of the room now.

581

: 00:28:05

I'll see it from another perspective.

582

: 00:28:07

Maybe I'll have more light coming in.

583

: 00:28:08

Yeah.

584

: 00:28:10

I'm just giving you an example of a room,

A metaphor of just changing positions,

585

: 00:28:14

maybe changing perspectives in the brain.

586

: 00:28:18

John: One of the things that I had to

ask myself and be honest about was what

587

: 00:28:21

I had, I was not being prepared to do,

or what I hadn't been doing in order to

588

: 00:28:26

be more visible and to be more noticed.

589

: 00:28:30

And there's quite a lot, there's quite

a lot that I just either haven't done

590

: 00:28:34

or maybe have been avoiding doing

that could be done to be more visible

591

: 00:28:39

and this whole, so sometimes you

just find yourself hoping or waiting.

592

: 00:28:43

That stuff will get.

593

: 00:28:45

We'll get delivered to you if

you like the magical Amazon

594

: 00:28:49

delivery of here's your success.

595

: 00:28:51

And so here's your package.

596

: 00:28:52

It's, just, just coming

on the truck right now.

597

: 00:28:54

James Kilgarriff: So what would

you recommend to someone who

598

: 00:28:56

is trying to get their message

out or be a presenter speaker.

599

: 00:29:01

It could be a coach,

it could be an author.

600

: 00:29:04

What would you, what would

your recommendations be?

601

: 00:29:07

'cause you've talked about

experiencing being ignored and

602

: 00:29:10

then there's safety issues.

603

: 00:29:11

But tell me.

604

: 00:29:13

John: I think there's certainly

a lot we could go to here, but

605

: 00:29:15

I wanna try and keep it simple.

606

: 00:29:18

some of the most essential things are, um,

to be clear on what you want to talk about

607

: 00:29:24

and who you think you want to talk to.

608

: 00:29:26

And it's okay if that

changes in the future.

609

: 00:29:28

Goodness knows, I've pivoted on stuff

and mean its different areas because

610

: 00:29:32

you will, you'll evolve, your content

will evolve your, your ability to vote.

611

: 00:29:36

Evolve as well that also make the

decision that this is what you want to do.

612

: 00:29:41

Hmm.

613

: 00:29:42

And that the real goal is to have the

persistence and the iteration with it,

614

: 00:29:47

and to get through as many failures as

possible and learn from them so that you

615

: 00:29:53

can get to the successes because, you

know, do think it is better to put out.

616

: 00:29:58

As good a content as you can

manage to put out without

617

: 00:30:01

getting perfectionist about it.

618

: 00:30:04

Rather than just to turn out masses

of content of social media posts.

619

: 00:30:08

I think quality as best you can is mostly

gonna be quantity for the greater degree.

620

: 00:30:14

But if you can get some balance

between them, you can get out

621

: 00:30:18

there and you can get heard.

622

: 00:30:19

But one of the biggest things that

slowed me down was not getting help.

623

: 00:30:23

It's not, not reaching out to anyone who

could have helped me or advanced me, or

624

: 00:30:28

not making the connections, building my

network, getting coaching, whatever it

625

: 00:30:32

is, you know, there's so many things that

could have helped to progress things.

626

: 00:30:36

You have to be strategic about it.

627

: 00:30:38

And so just deciding what you want

is gonna be what you wanna aim for

628

: 00:30:43

is gonna be a lot stronger than just

saying, well, let's see what happens.

629

: 00:30:47

Let's just start doing something and

hope that something happens like hope is.

630

: 00:30:52

Is really not a good strategy.

631

: 00:30:53

It's no strategy at all, to be honest.

632

: 00:30:55

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

633

: 00:30:56

I mean, it's important to enroll the

support of others being a coach or

634

: 00:30:59

whoever it might a mentor, you know, ask.

635

: 00:31:02

if you're starting out, it's

like, who can I enroll to help me

636

: 00:31:06

fulfill this particular vision?

637

: 00:31:07

Yeah.

638

: 00:31:07

I mean, you can't do it alone.

639

: 00:31:09

You can try doing it

alone, but it's hard work.

640

: 00:31:11

John: Well, you know, I was thinking about

this with the comedy stuff and story.

641

: 00:31:14

I've been doing a lot of storytelling

stuff this year as well, and the more

642

: 00:31:17

I do that, I think well hang, just hang

around in those sorts of environments

643

: 00:31:20

with people who are doing those things,

helps me to grow and expands my network

644

: 00:31:25

and so many other benefits as well.

645

: 00:31:28

Same with that.

646

: 00:31:29

If you have goals via a speaker or a

communicator or a trainer, something

647

: 00:31:34

along those lines and you feel like

you're not really being heard or noticed,

648

: 00:31:39

there's, there's a lot you can do, but

I think spending time with other people

649

: 00:31:42

who are on that track is gonna help.

650

: 00:31:45

Yeah.

651

: 00:31:46

James Kilgarriff: So checking

around like-minded people.

652

: 00:31:47

I mean, we've read the books, for example,

think and Grow Rich in Napoleon Hill.

653

: 00:31:53

The people know, get a

template for success.

654

: 00:31:56

I'm not saying it's the ultimate one.

655

: 00:31:58

He spent 20 years in was interviewing

the richest people in America.

656

: 00:32:02

How do they think success is?

657

: 00:32:04

Talks about persistence and all sorts

of stuff, but one of the key things

658

: 00:32:08

is become a worldwide phenomenon,

is the mastermind principle hanging

659

: 00:32:12

around with like-minded people.

660

: 00:32:13

Yeah.

661

: 00:32:15

If you are hanging around with people

saying you can't do it, you won't do it.

662

: 00:32:18

John: Yeah.

663

: 00:32:19

And you're trying something out.

664

: 00:32:20

And your closest people, your partner

parents, whoever is telling you, oh,

665

: 00:32:26

well that didn't work, or That was

terrible and you've only just started

666

: 00:32:29

doing it, you're, you gonna want to

stop doing it as good as possible.

667

: 00:32:34

You, you know, you're

well, they're ignoring

668

: 00:32:36

James Kilgarriff: what I, my good

intentions are therefore what I'm doing.

669

: 00:32:39

I must be crazy so I'll stop doing it.

670

: 00:32:42

Right.

671

: 00:32:43

John: don't expect other people to

understand, but maybe if you can at

672

: 00:32:48

least ask them to support rather than

to tear you down and say, you know what?

673

: 00:32:52

It's, it is okay.

674

: 00:32:53

It sucks.

675

: 00:32:54

You know, one of the reasons, one

of the only reasons I even did my

676

: 00:32:56

first open mic night, which most

people would be terrified of doing.

677

: 00:33:00

I, I'm not saying I wasn't scared thing.

678

: 00:33:01

I put it off for a long time because I

was, but, one of the reasons I, I think I

679

: 00:33:05

was able to do it was because I, I took.

680

: 00:33:08

I lowered the stakes for myself, Uhhuh.

681

: 00:33:11

I didn't have to be,

a huge comedy success.

682

: 00:33:14

I didn't have to be right.

683

: 00:33:15

I'm gonna be discovered as

some amazing standup comedian.

684

: 00:33:20

All I needed to do to be a success for me

that night was to get up there and do it

685

: 00:33:26

because it was such a, a fear factor thing

for me that was blocking me from doing it.

686

: 00:33:31

You know, like a, like you, a

parachute jumpers on like, like.

687

: 00:33:35

Of course you want those to be successful,

but, but you know, the, one of the

688

: 00:33:38

biggest things that would stop people

from doing it is the fear factor.

689

: 00:33:41

And the same with this.

690

: 00:33:41

So that, well, that's

the main fear factor.

691

: 00:33:43

If I do that, that's already a success.

692

: 00:33:45

If I don't get any laughs or

whatever else, okay, I think I'll

693

: 00:33:49

still do it again, but at least I

would've gotten up there and given

694

: 00:33:53

this a go to, take that first step.

695

: 00:33:56

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

696

: 00:33:56

I just coached a guy in a big company.

697

: 00:33:57

He's got a team and he says

engineering, engineering software guy.

698

: 00:34:02

He just said.

699

: 00:34:04

Most of my team members

want, want big successes?

700

: 00:34:06

Well, why don't you just

start with the small ones.

701

: 00:34:08

We had, we did the presentation, we

got the, the basic document, right?

702

: 00:34:12

We got the basic plan.

703

: 00:34:13

Right?

704

: 00:34:14

Start with the small

and build on the small.

705

: 00:34:18

Oh, you know, you said I stood up

and on on stage and gave my talk.

706

: 00:34:21

That's a success.

707

: 00:34:23

Oh no it's not.

708

: 00:34:23

no.

709

: 00:34:23

I didn't have a round of

applause from all these people.

710

: 00:34:26

It doesn't matter.

711

: 00:34:27

You stood up for the first time on a

stage in front of all these people.

712

: 00:34:31

One person clap.

713

: 00:34:32

Great.

714

: 00:34:32

That's the, that's the start, isn't it?

715

: 00:34:35

John: And the thing is, most people

do recognize in the audiences as well,

716

: 00:34:41

whether it's comedy, storytelling,

professionals, public speaking, whatever

717

: 00:34:45

they do recognize how difficult it is.

718

: 00:34:48

And so when they see somebody maybe

who does struggle with the noses

719

: 00:34:52

or, their first time doing it.

720

: 00:34:54

They get it.

721

: 00:34:55

Yeah.

722

: 00:34:56

There's, there's really not that

many people who are gonna be harsh

723

: 00:34:59

about it or cruel or that, oh,

well you suck, you can't do it.

724

: 00:35:04

Most people are, are somewhat more

empathetic and would be more on the

725

: 00:35:08

signs of, well, like, Hey, yeah,

maybe it wasn't great, but you did it.

726

: 00:35:11

You got up there and you, you

gave a talk and we undervalue

727

: 00:35:15

these little achievements.

728

: 00:35:17

It's too much.

729

: 00:35:18

'cause we all, we all think we

need to go from zero to hero in 60.

730

: 00:35:22

And, and I just, it's a common,

731

: 00:35:24

James Kilgarriff: it's a

common problem with people and

732

: 00:35:27

they're looking for perfection.

733

: 00:35:30

Again, I'm gonna quote Harv Eker again.

734

: 00:35:31

He said sloppy success

is better than perfect

735

: 00:35:34

mediocrity.

736

: 00:35:34

I love that quote.

737

: 00:35:36

Sloppy success is better than perfect.

738

: 00:35:38

Mediocrity.

739

: 00:35:39

John: He's, as you say, I'm

done before, which drives me.

740

: 00:35:42

Don't freaking do it.

741

: 00:35:43

Oh, I've forgotten about it.

742

: 00:35:44

But either I will take

743

: 00:35:45

James Kilgarriff: perfect

action if you wanna be less.

744

: 00:35:47

You know, if you wanna be.

745

: 00:35:49

It is about taking and, and that's a

big issue with a lot of people now.

746

: 00:35:52

Now I can't start until.

747

: 00:35:55

I do as well.

748

: 00:35:56

And waiting is also resistance.

749

: 00:35:57

By the way.

750

: 00:35:58

I'll wait till the kids

have finished school.

751

: 00:36:00

I'll wait till the summer's over.

752

: 00:36:01

I'll wait till blah, blah, blah.

753

: 00:36:02

I do it myself at times.

754

: 00:36:03

I notice that.

755

: 00:36:05

But it's just, just be sloppy.

756

: 00:36:09

Stand on the stage.

757

: 00:36:10

Give you a spur speech.

758

: 00:36:12

If people laugh, they've laughed.

759

: 00:36:13

If they don't, they don't.

760

: 00:36:15

John: And I think one of the biggest

things that holds people banging, so

761

: 00:36:19

one of the places that this fear factor

really comes from is our fear of judgment,

762

: 00:36:24

of negative judgment from other people.

763

: 00:36:27

What will people say?

764

: 00:36:29

What will people think of me?

765

: 00:36:30

And this is very relevant to all

the stuff we've talked about.

766

: 00:36:34

In this chat because those

times of, should I speak up?

767

: 00:36:38

What, what will people say?

768

: 00:36:39

What will people think of me?

769

: 00:36:40

How would they view me?

770

: 00:36:41

They might start to view me

differently, so, well, good.

771

: 00:36:44

Do you want things to stay the same?

772

: 00:36:45

'cause you're not happy with that,

so, but you, you might have to go

773

: 00:36:49

through some discomfort to get there.

774

: 00:36:51

And people generally

don't want to do that.

775

: 00:36:53

Everyone wants their, their

easy life, their smooth ride.

776

: 00:36:56

It do.

777

: 00:36:57

It ain't like that.

778

: 00:36:58

If you, if you want, there's no like that.

779

: 00:37:00

So I, I like the sloppy success.

780

: 00:37:02

James Kilgarriff: The sloppy success.

781

: 00:37:03

Yeah.

782

: 00:37:03

It's a great quote and a lot

of people resonate with that.

783

: 00:37:06

John: Yeah.

784

: 00:37:07

I think it's, probably a great

quote to wrap this up with.

785

: 00:37:10

So better to have.

786

: 00:37:11

I

787

: 00:37:11

James Kilgarriff: think it came from

Harker, but it was one of his hope

788

: 00:37:13

speakers on stage some years back.

789

: 00:37:16

John: Okay.

790

: 00:37:16

It wasn't.

791

: 00:37:19

It could well be.

792

: 00:37:21

It doesn't, it doesn't matter

who it came from though.

793

: 00:37:23

That's a great quote.

794

: 00:37:24

Sloppy success is better

than perfect mediocrity.

795

: 00:37:26

James Kilgarriff: Sloppy

success is better than perfect.

796

: 00:37:28

Mediocre.

797

: 00:37:28

Just be sloppy.

798

: 00:37:32

Get your first software product out.

799

: 00:37:34

Get your first version of the

different ki You know your own.

800

: 00:37:38

You've got a phone you're developing,

get the phone out or whatever.

801

: 00:37:41

Get your first coaching program out.

802

: 00:37:43

It's not gonna be perfect.

803

: 00:37:46

John: And make the decision that

you're not going to be ignored.

804

: 00:37:49

You're going to be seen.

805

: 00:37:51

Do the stuff that will get you noticed.

806

: 00:37:52

Get yourself hurt.

807

: 00:37:53

Because if you're waiting for it

all to come to you, I can tell you

808

: 00:37:57

this from personal experience, if

you're waiting for that to all come

809

: 00:37:59

to you, it's gonna be a long wait.

810

: 00:38:01

For most people, there are those.

811

: 00:38:02

There are those times.

812

: 00:38:03

There's, there's, there are

exceptions to this rule.

813

: 00:38:05

There are definitely

people who get spotted.

814

: 00:38:08

They, someone sees something

and says, alright, you we're

815

: 00:38:11

gonna give them an opportunity.

816

: 00:38:13

And don't resent them.

817

: 00:38:14

Don't resent them for it.

818

: 00:38:16

Good luck to them.

819

: 00:38:17

But people too often.

820

: 00:38:19

People all too often undervalue or

underestimate the amount of luck that

821

: 00:38:23

goes into a lot of people's success.

822

: 00:38:25

'cause sometimes it is getting spotted

by the right person or meeting the

823

: 00:38:29

right connection or whatever else.

824

: 00:38:32

Those things, those opportunities

for success can only really happen

825

: 00:38:36

when you are out there and being,

you know, going for sloppy success.

826

: 00:38:40

James Kilgarriff: Yeah.

827

: 00:38:41

The more you're out there,

the more lucky you get.

828

: 00:38:42

I guess you're bound to meet someone

or someone who's got someone who

829

: 00:38:46

knows someone who will help you,

but you, you put yourself out there,

830

: 00:38:49

John: stick with it.

831

: 00:38:50

Right.

832

: 00:38:50

Yeah.

833

: 00:38:51

James Kilgarriff: Interesting.

834

: 00:38:51

I stick with it.

835

: 00:38:52

I mean, good.

836

: 00:38:52

By the way, I'm not perfect

with any of this stuff.

837

: 00:38:54

Not me.

838

: 00:38:54

I mean, this is what I've noticed

when I've coached lots and lots of

839

: 00:38:57

people over the many years, how.

840

: 00:39:01

Well, most people have the

similar mental dynamics of what

841

: 00:39:04

holds them back, keeps 'em safe.

842

: 00:39:06

Some of 'em are afraid of success.

843

: 00:39:08

That's another one.

844

: 00:39:08

Not just afraid of failure.

845

: 00:39:10

The biggie.

846

: 00:39:11

John: Yeah.

847

: 00:39:11

Yeah, absolutely.

848

: 00:39:13

Afraid of success, afraid of

failure is, but it's all that

849

: 00:39:15

stuff that keeps you stuck.

850

: 00:39:17

James, thank you for actually,

it's been a good chat.

851

: 00:39:21

It has been a good chat, and I'm happy

to let the audience in on what I get to

852

: 00:39:26

experience on on a pretty much weekly

basis with you in our, little chat.

853

: 00:39:30

So I, yeah, I

854

: 00:39:31

James Kilgarriff: like it because I dunno

what we're gonna talk about next and

855

: 00:39:33

it unfolds and this little podcast has

been a result of allowing it to unfold.

856

: 00:39:38

It's been good, Johnny.

857

: 00:39:39

Thanks for inviting me on.

858

: 00:39:40

Thanks James.

859

: 00:39:41

Speak soon.

860

: 00:39:43

John: So feeling ignored

isn't the end of the story.

861

: 00:39:46

It can be the start of a new one.

862

: 00:39:48

Whether that's deciding not to

wait for opportunities, reframing

863

: 00:39:52

rejection, or just daring to show up.

864

: 00:39:55

A little sloppier, but a lot braver.

865

: 00:39:57

You get to choose and If this conversation

between James and myself resonated

866

: 00:40:02

with you somehow, please share it with

someone who you think might need the

867

: 00:40:06

reminder that their voice matters.

868

: 00:40:08

And if you're done waiting to be

noticed, hit subscribe and join

869

: 00:40:12

me here because the more we speak

up, the harder we are to ignore.

870

: 00:40:16

See you next time.