More Clarity, Less Clutter | Oreet Kaufman

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As professional communicators.

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Hopefully we all understand that it's

really important to not just be able to

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do the presentation a bit well, but to

make sure that all elements of what we do

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look as good and feel as good as possible.

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We are projecting a, a brand and.

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Image of how we want to be

perceived by our audience.

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So if we look a mess, our audience

are gonna make assumptions about us.

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If our slideshows look

super basic or homemade, I.

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That's gonna tell a story about

us as well, not a good one.

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And so I wanted to continue the

elements on visual storytelling.

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We've had a few episodes on this recently.

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One with Emily Schneider, and again with

John Demato , and want to continue that.

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I, one of the reasons why I decided to

do another episode, particularly relating

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more to PowerPoint was because my guest

are Kaufman, has some really nice.

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Insights and ideas that relate to this

about how we can be doing something.

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She calls word dieting, so you

definitely wanna listen to that for that.

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Now, I will say this, the audio

quality is not the best for one of

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these, for one of my episodes, and I.

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Almost was in two minds about whether

to publish it because, because of the

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audio issues, I think it's cleaned up

enough that it's still just about works.

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But, hopefully will be able to listen and

hear everything that you need to hear.

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I tried to take out as much

as possible of everything that

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wasn't coming through clearly.

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But there's only so much I can do, so

please do bear with the audio issues.

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It will be worth it.

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You'll get some great value from

listening to my guest today.

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Welcome to Present Influence the show

for professional communicators who

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want to inspire, impact and influence.

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My name's John Ball.

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I am your guide on this journey to

mastery level communication skills.

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Let me officially welcome Oreet Kaufman

to the Present Influence Podcast.

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It's great to have you.

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Here

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Oreet Kaufman: Good morning.

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Thank you for having me.

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John: I'm so delighted to speak to you.

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I really enjoyed our conversation when we

had a little pre-interview chat a while

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back, and We recently, as had a friend

of yours, Emily Schneider, on the show.

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And we'd wanna say, oh, we have, we're

gonna have some other stuff to talk about.

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Visual storytelling.

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I think we do.

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And so that's why I was very much

looking forward to bringing you on

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because you have some really nice

stuff in your profile that, that hit

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something for me, oh, I really like this.

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Things about Cleaning up

your communication clutter.

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Tell me a little bit about that

and why that's a big thing for you.

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Oreet Kaufman: Sure.

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John first I would say, I think it started

from me just being an impatient person.

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So I don't know whether it's adult a DD

or the fast social pace world we live in

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today, but I don't have a lot of patience.

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And so when I see a presentation

slide, I'm at a present.

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Wherever I'm at, a presentation and I

see so much information on the slide,

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I'm just, I think to myself, get to it

to the point, and I think we don't do

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that well enough in communications today.

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So while there's images and graphics and

help tell the story, it's the message

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at the core that is really important.

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So we think about that.

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Your audience only has three

to five seconds to look at your

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slide and get your message.

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Don't waste your audience's time.

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Don't waste their time

and get to the point.

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So it is a skill, it does take practice

to understand, to look at and say

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what's repetitive, what's redundant,

what is saying the same thing?

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What is bullets should really never

be more than two lines at the most.

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So you know, it's taking a look

at that and seeing how can we

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make it shorter, faster, and more

efficient, but still engaging your

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audience and not wasting their time.

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John: So there's, there is a

balance to be found here, right?

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Oreet Kaufman: Yeah, absolutely.

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John: let me ask you, 'cause

this is interesting to me.

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We've all met those people who overshare

or over deliver on, on information

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and is that what this is about or

is there other stuff going on here?

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Oreet Kaufman: Yeah, I think a lot of

times people write as they speak and

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that's a different communication skill.

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So I used to do it as well and it really

took a lot of practice for me to learn

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how to cut in my own communications.

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So I think when people

write as they speak.

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They don't understand what is the key

message, what are those key words?

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And really going through and

having your messaging to really

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say what are those key words?

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What's the key messages?

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What do you wanna leave your audience

with that they're going to remember?

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John: Do.

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Do you ever get clients who come to you

with a slideshow that they've already done

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and you look at it and go, oh my goodness,

Where do you begin the journey with them?

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Oreet Kaufman: So I did their permission

from them to get, to have the liberty

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to say, this is something that I'm

really good at and I really enjoy

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to be able to cut down your content.

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and with their permission, I will

take a look and say, if it's a

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service that they're offering or

if it's a product that they're

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offering, especially with services,

I try to pull out those keywords.

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So if you don't offer any.

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Repair and, diagnosis services.

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You still need to say,

diagnosis and repair.

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You don't need to go through and explain.

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So when I get content from a client, I,

first of all, let's try to understand what

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their goal is, what design outcome is.

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What are you trying to say with the slide?

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What are you trying to say

with the whole presentation?

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Then from there I'm able to say, okay,

you've got three lines in this bullet

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that really mean diagnosis and repair,

so let's pull that and everything else.

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I'll also ask it that's gonna be sent to

a client, or if it's gonna be presented

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live to know if I can put it in speaker

notes and say, just pull out diagnosis

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and repair and speak to the rest of it.

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Because all you're wanting your

clients to remember is the service

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you provide is diagnosis and repair.

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John: Yeah.

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I'm sure this isn't just your philosophy.

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There must be some sort of results you've

seen from making these kinds of changes.

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So what has been the kind of feedback

that you've had from people when

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you have helped them to clean up the

language that they use and make sure

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the communication is less cluttered?

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Oreet Kaufman: Yeah, so

about two different examples.

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One is from presentation designing is

where I've taken a lot of stats and a

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lot of data, and I've said, okay, what,

let's just pull that number out and,

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you have all this information on your

slide, but you already told me on this

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at the top of the slide, the key data.

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So just pull that out.

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The slide was crowded.

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The slide had two different charts on it.

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Again, all the information,

but I found buried in there.

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The key stats, I pulled it out.

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I highlighted just those numbers

with one line underneath it.

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I highlighted the key

fact and the reaction was.

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It was just astonishment.

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It was, we didn't realize

it was that simple.

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We didn't realize that's really

how we need to communicate.

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Again, three to five seconds, your

audience is looking all over your slide.

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They have no idea where

to look, what to do.

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Animation helps with that.

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Also, I recommend animation

sometimes with my clients to say.

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bringing little animation not a great

fan of over animation, but animate

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appropriately to drive the message.

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So if you have two statistics on your

slide, then animate one at a time so

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you can drive the message and you could

talk to that, statistics specifically.

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Another example I have is when I was

working at a sales organization about

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two years ago, I was part of a meeting

that was, meant to write instructions

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for our sellers on how to read a report.

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It was an hour long meeting.

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I'm not sure why exactly.

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I was in that meeting and the instructions

were pretty good except for the end.

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There were four bullet points and each

bullet started with the same word.

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And at the end they said, well,

re what would you suggest to

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add to these instructions?

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And I said, first thing I would do is

I would take out the first bullet of

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first word of each of those bullets.

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It's repetitive.

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If there's action you want from the

sellers, just start with that action one.

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They all start with the same word.

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Take that out.

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Start with an action word.

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Get to the point.

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These are sellers who

don't have a lot of time.

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Get to the points, with your

action words and minimize the

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words as much as possible.

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So.

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Small changes our communication and

engagement and understanding and

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ultimately driving those results.

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'cause that's what you want.

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John: Absolutely.

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I could see where that might come from.

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Trying to do a, do

slides the way we speak.

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Like there is a sort of rhetorical

technique when we speaking

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of repeating the same kind of

phrase to have more impact.

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But I think if you have a whole slide

series just like you wouldn't do that

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speaking, but definitely overdoing it.

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Is some of this a bit of, I don't

say laziness, but a bit of maybe

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people's lack of confidence sometimes.

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I've seen this as well where people,

rely, make the slideshow a bit of a

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crutch through their presentation.

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Is that kind of common as well?

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Oreet Kaufman: I then you've also

seen people reaving off slides,

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not just writing as they speak, but

also reading directly off of that.

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And I can guarantee you every person who

has watched a PowerPoint presentation

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where they have run off the slides,

you just wanna roll off your seat.

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You just wanna fall hard.

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So I think

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John: It painful.

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Yeah.

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Oreet Kaufman: people, I think a lot of

people do definitely use it as a crutch.

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You are the show, as the

speaker, you are the show.

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Your slides should support you and help

you tell the story, but not be the story.

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You are the story.

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So it's understanding that balance

between how much to put on the slide

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again between graphics and images

and whatnot, and the messaging.

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It also takes practice.

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So if you're a speaker and you're now

gonna adopt this word dieting, and you're

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gonna, put less words on the slide, let's

take practice to become comfortable with

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your message so it doesn't become a cru.

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You need to practice.

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You need to practice.

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If you have speaker notes, if you're doing

it at a keynote, there are large speakers.

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A lot of times there will

be, it's teleprompter.

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In front of you, it'll

show you the speaker note.

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Sir, this becomes adding more comfortable

with your message, and you're comfortable

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talking so that the slides behind you

are just, just sparks of information.

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John: Yeah, they're complimentary

rather than dependent.

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I like that.

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I love that expression you have

as well about word dieting.

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I'd heard it from you before

and thought, I love that.

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That's such a good, it's such good

IP for you to use that as well.

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but it's one of those things

that really stands out.

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are there some key principles

that you operate by?

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I know you already shared a bit, but

there's some more key principles you

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operate by that we could learn from?

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I would probably encourage people

to work with a professional like you

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on slideshows because, if you are.

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I think if you're wanting to stand

out from the crowd, self-made

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slideshows can look very self-made.

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But what if we're gonna do that?

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Maybe just someone starting out,

what are some of the best practices

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that we could apply to word dieting

and cleaning up our clutter?

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Oreet Kaufman: Absolutely.

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I would say like everyone has a little

bit of a teacher in them that loves

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to take out that proverbial red pen.

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I think we all enjoy a little bit of that.

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So I would say look at your own

work from, take a step back and

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look at it as if somebody's bringing

it to you is asking you for your

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own feedback, what would you cut?

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And I would say, look for repetition.

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Look for redundancies.

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When we say redundancies, example,

one of the examples I have in my,

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my handout is next quarter results

for Q2 are available online.

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Send 'em short.

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Right?

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But what do you say time wise?

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It's Q2.

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You don't need to say

next quarter results.

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Just say Q2.

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They're available online.

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The word available online,

they were available.

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another example I like to use is, She

drove in circles around the block.

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You, if she drove in circles,

she drove around the block.

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If she drove around the

block, she drove in circles.

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Look at your own work.

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See Okay.

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Until the step out.

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What seems repetitive?

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and again, that takes practice.

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It takes practice.

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I don't know, John, if I can

recommend an app, there was an

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app that helps you work on, um.

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John: please do.

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Oreet Kaufman: It's called Elevate.

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it's for adults and for kids.

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And one of the features I

have on there is brevity.

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So it will show you sentences like

she drove in circles around the

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block and will ask you to remove

the words that are redundant.

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And at a very basic level,

it's a fantastic exercise.

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It's fantastic.

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My son does it and he likes to challenge

me about and he'll say, okay, mommy,

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what don't you put out from here?

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And I thrive on a challenge

'cause it keeps my skills sheep.

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It

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reminds me of, other

instances and of brevity.

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So I probably recommend

that and just practice.

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'cause then you start to learn for

yourself what's redundant, what's extra.

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Oh, and it, a lot of the times

it's an aha moment and you get

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better at, it's so empowering.

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John: like anything, it takes practice.

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And, but I really like that.

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I'm, I, definitely gonna try that out.

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I don't know how many redundancies I

have in my general communication, but

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I'm keen to know, and I am someone who

cares about cleaning up, and being as

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clear in my communication as I can be.

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and I'll tell you one of the, one of the

things that, having been editing podcast

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interviews for a number of years now.

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I also feel like I've had the

privilege to be able to pick up a

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lot of my own idiosyncrasies and

redundancies in speaking, but also

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I think I do far less of the ums

and ahs that a lot of people do.

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And the, and it's and all these

filler words that, that really are

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unnecessary in a lot of how we speak.

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So this to me is a great

opportunity to, to take that a

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step further and do a little more.

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me ask you a bit though about, other

instances where people perhaps could

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use more imagery in, you mentioned

animation, but could we use more imagery

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instead of perhaps where we may be trying

to just put stuff in words, sometimes

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do a bit of visual storytelling.

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Oreet Kaufman: Yeah, absolutely.

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they say pictures worth a thousand words,

but don't just slap any picture on there.

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and don't make it a thousand words.

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So curating the record kind of photos,

I think to connect with your audience,

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a lot of times the photo needs to,

imagery needs to evoke in motion.

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It needs to evoke a connection.

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again, in today's technology world,

we're all seeking for connection.

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So it should be imagery that is

obviously appropriate to the topic.

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and really.

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minimal imagery as much

like on each slide.

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You don't wanna have competing images.

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again, three to five seconds and what you

want your audience to take away from it.

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What image are you trying

to evoke and what feeling?

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so let's say, think about that as well.

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So if you're a technology company, if

you're an environmental company, choosing

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that right imagery, to evoke not only

a feeling and a connection, I'm sorry.

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I would say no.

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I'm sorry to evoke that

feeling and emotion.

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that's really a lot of what the

core of what marketing is because

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good presentation is good marketing.

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It's a good marketing tool.

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And when you see these billboards and

you see these commercials, it's all about

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how you make you, how it makes you feel.

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So I always tell my kids what the

key you in marketing is this Excel

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and marketing is how you connect with

somebody and how it makes you feel.

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So I think there's really an importance

in choosing the word imagery for those

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John: Yeah, things that will

stick in people's minds as well.

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they'll feel that, but they'll also

remember it because it evoke to feeling.

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so yeah, it, it can be.

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magical stuff, there, there are.

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I will say there, there are

slide presentations I can reme.

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I certainly watched a lot of,

we all did during covid, right?

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We a lot of Zoom meetings and

a lot of times people would

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use slides and some of that.

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: 00:15:42

There are some I still remember

because they did it really

314

: 00:15:45

well and the most part I don't.

315

: 00:15:49

So the ones that do this well do really

stand out and will stick in your memory.

316

: 00:15:54

sometimes because they had the

visual storytelling, they even used

317

: 00:15:56

a little bit of humor and things

that, images that were really

318

: 00:16:00

appropriate to what they were doing.

319

: 00:16:02

Like it hadn't just been slapped together.

320

: 00:16:04

Oreet Kaufman: I would

321

: 00:16:05

people don't remember the words on a sign.

322

: 00:16:06

People gonna remember you.

323

: 00:16:07

Images.

324

: 00:16:09

Nobody walks away with saying, I

really remember those words and

325

: 00:16:11

how she made it so efficient and.

326

: 00:16:13

They're gonna, that'll make them

understand and resonate with them.

327

: 00:16:17

But what they walk away with and what

they're gonna remember is that image on

328

: 00:16:20

the screen really connected me with their

message, really connected me with what

329

: 00:16:23

their goal is, and what it means for me.

330

: 00:16:26

John: Yeah.

331

: 00:16:27

Look, I I can so relate to pretty

much everything you're saying.

332

: 00:16:30

lot of.

333

: 00:16:31

Patience when people are over

communicating or really struggling to

334

: 00:16:36

get to the point and, dancing around

all of the houses before we get there.

335

: 00:16:41

so things that are gonna make

things clearer for people,

336

: 00:16:44

make you understood faster.

337

: 00:16:47

Connect the ideas with people quicker,

and, really just make a bigger impact,

338

: 00:16:53

I would say, in what you're doing.

339

: 00:16:55

That's all got to be good.

340

: 00:16:56

And if you are a professional.

341

: 00:17:00

You want to come across as a professional

in what you do, then you should be making

342

: 00:17:04

sure that your visual representations,

your tools are at that level as well.

343

: 00:17:11

So I think what you do is super important.

344

: 00:17:14

Can I ask you Yeah, go ahead.

345

: 00:17:16

Oreet Kaufman: I, I think it also

sandwiches your credibility, right?

346

: 00:17:19

It's like showing up, kinda like showing

up as a speaker in a wrinkled suit.

347

: 00:17:23

So your presentation could be great and

you might have the greatest message, but

348

: 00:17:27

if you show up in a wrinkled suit, and

that's all the people are gonna remember.

349

: 00:17:30

So besides your imagery and the

visual storytelling, the clear,

350

: 00:17:34

concise, and efficient messaging

351

: 00:17:37

is what's gonna establish your

credibility, that you don't ramble on,

352

: 00:17:40

that you don't read off the screen,

that your slides are not crowded, you

353

: 00:17:43

are clear, you are professional, you

are confident, and that's really what

354

: 00:17:47

presentation design is about in my

mind, is giving you the confidence to

355

: 00:17:51

get up there and speak about the topic,

that you're the expert on that top.

356

: 00:17:55

But this gives you the confidence to

get up there, not only to impress.

357

: 00:17:59

Your audiences, but also get

the results you're looking for.

358

: 00:18:02

Whether it's to change behavior,

whether it's to change, improve, not

359

: 00:18:05

change knowledge, gain knowledge,

change behavior, learn something new.

360

: 00:18:09

But it really gives you that

confidence and establishes your

361

: 00:18:12

professionalism and your credibility.

362

: 00:18:14

So it's, excuse me, it's very clear, like

with and without the presentation design,

363

: 00:18:20

how you present yourself, that's really,

like I said earlier, it's a marketing

364

: 00:18:23

tool and how you wanna put yourself

out to the world, to your audience.

365

: 00:18:27

John: I like that there's, an area of

presentation, visual presentation where

366

: 00:18:32

I maybe have been shifting my position

on this, and I'll share it with you.

367

: 00:18:37

I'll put it with, put you this way.

368

: 00:18:38

A lot of the coaching I've done to help

train speakers and help coach 'em to be

369

: 00:18:43

better speakers, have better keynotes.

370

: 00:18:46

I will nearly always will get asked about.

371

: 00:18:48

slideshows and that should be used.

372

: 00:18:52

Um, should we have them?

373

: 00:18:54

how many should we have?

374

: 00:18:55

All that kind of thing.

375

: 00:18:56

And my general answer has been that

you should only really have them as a

376

: 00:19:02

speaker if you really gonna need them,

if your presentation requires them.

377

: 00:19:07

otherwise it's one of those additional

technical things that maybe you

378

: 00:19:13

could do without, like, you have

to make sure everything's set up.

379

: 00:19:17

Here's where I am maybe

a bit more with it now.

380

: 00:19:19

if your visual storytelling, if your

slides are to the level that we're

381

: 00:19:24

talking about here, that you've worked,

especially if you worked with someone

382

: 00:19:26

like yourself where you know you're

gonna have a high quality expert

383

: 00:19:30

looking, presentation, I think that's

only going to enhance what you do.

384

: 00:19:37

And so it may look a bit different for

different talks, but I do think, you

385

: 00:19:43

still probably want to be able to, if

all the technical stuff blows up, which

386

: 00:19:47

you still need to be able to figure

out how you would deliver your talk

387

: 00:19:51

without this, but that's maybe where

I've shifted my position a little bit.

388

: 00:19:54

do you think, pretty much any presentation

could benefit from a good slideshow?

389

: 00:20:00

Oreet Kaufman: I think it depends

on the kind of speaker that you are.

390

: 00:20:02

So I think not all of us are dynamic,

high energy, engaging speakers.

391

: 00:20:07

If you're a keynote.

392

: 00:20:08

Even keynote speakers have

some visual slides behind them.

393

: 00:20:12

I think, I'm gonna assume the majority

of us who are presenting are not high

394

: 00:20:16

dynamic energy professional speakers.

395

: 00:20:19

And I think you also do account

for the different types of

396

: 00:20:21

learners in your audience.

397

: 00:20:23

There are visual learners that are

auditory learners, and so even with the

398

: 00:20:26

most engaging professional high energy

speakers, a lot of people in the audience

399

: 00:20:31

need to see along with you talking.

400

: 00:20:34

And so there's, again, striking

the balance between, it's not

401

: 00:20:38

webinar type slides you're gonna

put up there as a keynote speaker.

402

: 00:20:42

It's gonna be quick visuals, think

like the TED talks a little bit.

403

: 00:20:46

it'll be Ted Talk presentation is

really just pictures and very few words.

404

: 00:20:50

So those TED Talk speakers

are phenomenal speakers.

405

: 00:20:53

and they use very little visuals in

the background to support their story.

406

: 00:20:57

So I think to account for the different

types of people in the audience, it's

407

: 00:21:00

always good to have some type of visual.

408

: 00:21:03

but again, as we said earlier,

not to use it as a crutch.

409

: 00:21:05

so I think like you can't hurt.

410

: 00:21:07

I think it's always a good age.

411

: 00:21:10

John: We.

412

: 00:21:11

I guess it must be different for

every talk, but in general, is

413

: 00:21:15

there an optimal level of slides to

have, let's say an average keynote

414

: 00:21:20

presentation would be around 45 minutes.

415

: 00:21:23

how many slides would be too

many, I guess is what I'm asking.

416

: 00:21:28

Oreet Kaufman: Fewer the better.

417

: 00:21:28

Because we live in a world of slides

and everybody knows the routine.

418

: 00:21:33

Everybody knows what they might

expect, what might be coming.

419

: 00:21:36

we generally did down lines around two

minutes per slide to speak to, so we

420

: 00:21:40

would, I love to stay around 10 to 15.

421

: 00:21:43

I.

422

: 00:21:43

but I've had clients where for

annual sales calls, it's over a

423

: 00:21:46

hundred slides because it's a four

hour call and it breaks it up.

424

: 00:21:49

And sometimes that's just

what needs to happen.

425

: 00:21:52

It's different departments

submitting content and you

426

: 00:21:55

just have those types of calls.

427

: 00:21:57

but I always err I'm fewer than more.

428

: 00:22:00

because you should, especially for

pitch decks, let's say for example, it

429

: 00:22:04

should really be no more than 15 slots.

430

: 00:22:06

You need to get your message

across your problem, how you're

431

: 00:22:08

solving it, your financing, and

all key elements of a pitch deck.

432

: 00:22:12

but always tend to fewer than more.

433

: 00:22:15

Don't create slides for the

sake of creating slides.

434

: 00:22:17

More slides don't make

you look more intelligent.

435

: 00:22:20

Better, smarter slides make you

look more intelligent and the way

436

: 00:22:24

you use them will establish your

professionalism and credibility Again,

437

: 00:22:29

John: do you feel that there is

or should be a difference between

438

: 00:22:34

perhaps how much we use slides in

a live in person presentation to

439

: 00:22:40

perhaps a virtual meeting or Zoom call

440

: 00:22:45

Oreet Kaufman: no.

441

: 00:22:46

John: should be the same.

442

: 00:22:47

Oreet Kaufman: It should be the same.

443

: 00:22:48

I think you should adapt it.

444

: 00:22:51

I mean, it should be

treated as if it's the same.

445

: 00:22:53

If you're gonna send me a PowerPoint to

read on my own, I'm less engaged for sure

446

: 00:22:58

than if you were to present it to me live.

447

: 00:23:00

So if you, I would say this, you're

sending out a presentation afterwards

448

: 00:23:04

or in, instead of presenting it

live, make it as short as possible.

449

: 00:23:08

Get it down to a one or two page summary,

because everybody is so busy and I don't

450

: 00:23:13

wanna read your 26 page, PowerPoint

deck that you just sent me in an email

451

: 00:23:17

and you need feedback on by tomorrow.

452

: 00:23:19

It's not gonna happen.

453

: 00:23:21

I generally, I would say

stick to the same length.

454

: 00:23:24

of slides, whether it's presented

live or not, but certainly if you're

455

: 00:23:27

gonna send it out only or even

afterwards, make an abbreviated version.

456

: 00:23:32

Make it easy on everybody.

457

: 00:23:34

Again, nobody has time.

458

: 00:23:36

John: I like that.

459

: 00:23:37

You may not have an answer, so

I don't know, because this is

460

: 00:23:39

more about delivery, for online.

461

: 00:23:41

But, is there like a best practice

that you are aware of for slide

462

: 00:23:46

presentations on online presentations?

463

: 00:23:49

Is there like a best way to do it or is

it just cool to have it just pretty much

464

: 00:23:53

take over the screen and, what would

you say is the best way to present a

465

: 00:23:57

slide deck and an online presentation?

466

: 00:24:01

Oreet Kaufman: A lot of it is the same.

467

: 00:24:02

I think you have to remember the

audience is not sitting in front of you.

468

: 00:24:05

So when you're doing it on a

webinar, I think your engagement

469

: 00:24:08

and the slides needs to be a little

bit more than if it was live.

470

: 00:24:11

Actually, I.

471

: 00:24:11

Because people are on camera, they're

off camera, they're multitasking,

472

: 00:24:16

they're doing other things, versus

sitting alive in an audience where

473

: 00:24:19

you have more of a captive tension.

474

: 00:24:21

I would say, I think something

else that people tend to do

475

: 00:24:23

a lot is they over animate.

476

: 00:24:25

Because again, it looks, people

think it looks impressive.

477

: 00:24:27

So especially in a webinar setting,

I'm gonna over animate and make

478

: 00:24:31

it look fancy and I'm gonna put a

lot of bullets on the screen when

479

: 00:24:35

really it's understanding that, all

heard it, that less is more Animate

480

: 00:24:39

appropriately to drive your message and

to so that you can drive the message.

481

: 00:24:44

Animate for effect, don't over

animate for the sake of animating.

482

: 00:24:48

And I think in webinars and zooms,

a lot of people think because their

483

: 00:24:51

audience is just sitting behind their

computer, they're just gonna, I.

484

: 00:24:55

it, I feel like it's, it feels a little

more permissive in that kind of setting to

485

: 00:25:01

over animate, and I just get that reaction

and that that kind of gut feeling.

486

: 00:25:05

People feel that permission to

over animate and really don't,

487

: 00:25:08

John: Yeah.

488

: 00:25:08

Yeah.

489

: 00:25:08

Look, I, you, my, my brain's going

back to early age of PowerPoint,

490

: 00:25:12

particularly when Keynote came out

491

: 00:25:14

Oreet Kaufman: yeah.

492

: 00:25:15

John: for and end up, I can remember

going to presentations and seeing the

493

: 00:25:19

worst animations and, transitions between

slides as well, because it was all

494

: 00:25:25

new and people were having fun playing

with it, but they looked horrific.

495

: 00:25:30

Oreet Kaufman: Yeah, and it's

really only three or four

496

: 00:25:31

animations that are effective.

497

: 00:25:33

PowerPoint gets you so excited that

there's so much you can do, and go there

498

: 00:25:37

and try all of them, but it's about

knowing which ones are the most effective,

499

: 00:25:40

the most common, and there's a reason

that they're the most common because

500

: 00:25:43

they're minimal and they're effective.

501

: 00:25:45

You think transitions between slides also.

502

: 00:25:48

There's so much fun stuff you can

do there, And my daughter, when she

503

: 00:25:51

was in high school, was making a

presentation and she played with all the

504

: 00:25:55

transitions and I was like, what's great?

505

: 00:25:57

But I have no idea what you're

trying to say in the presentation

506

: 00:26:00

'cause I'm so distracted by all

the animations and transitions.

507

: 00:26:03

So it's really not knowing your

audience and really, I just putting

508

: 00:26:07

yourself in the audience's seat to

say, is this something that you would

509

: 00:26:10

wanna sit through, it's fun to make?

510

: 00:26:12

this something that you wanna sit through?

511

: 00:26:14

And again, three to five seconds.

512

: 00:26:17

Don't distract your audience.

513

: 00:26:18

Don't waste their time on, on any

effective transitions and animations.

514

: 00:26:22

Use it effectively.

515

: 00:26:23

Practice, try out different ones,

but then Use ones that are subtle and

516

: 00:26:28

that, and then help drive the message.

517

: 00:26:31

John: You have brought me to a another

question and I'm curious what your

518

: 00:26:36

answer will be to this as keynote

speakers or workshop leaders or,

519

: 00:26:40

standard presentations that we may have,

might there be times where we want to

520

: 00:26:44

change the slideshow a little bit, for

going to perhaps different audiences.

521

: 00:26:52

Oreet Kaufman: I think when we

say know your audience is no.

522

: 00:26:55

Who they are.

523

: 00:26:56

Is it a corporate audience?

524

: 00:26:57

Is it a technical audience?

525

: 00:26:58

Is it an artistic audience?

526

: 00:27:00

Is an audience that tech that

usually works mostly with,

527

: 00:27:03

visuals, who are you speaking to?

528

: 00:27:05

One of my favorite clients to work

with are engineers because they're

529

: 00:27:09

very technical, but when it comes to

communication and marketing in that sense,

530

: 00:27:13

they just overload the slides.

531

: 00:27:16

And so it's knowing who are

you talking to and what do they

532

: 00:27:19

need to know at that moment?

533

: 00:27:21

What is the most important information

that's really for everybody?

534

: 00:27:24

What do they need to know?

535

: 00:27:24

Where do I find it?

536

: 00:27:26

but the tone might need to change.

537

: 00:27:29

The language you use might need

to change based on the audience.

538

: 00:27:31

Certainly.

539

: 00:27:32

you don't wanna have a one slide, one

presentation fits all because that

540

: 00:27:36

means, in my opinion that you don't

really care about your audience as much.

541

: 00:27:40

You're just gonna slap and paste

the same presentation to everybody.

542

: 00:27:44

And it might not be big changes,

but it could be subtle changes in

543

: 00:27:47

terms of, like I said, the wording

that you use, the tree that you use.

544

: 00:27:50

it just deserves a review before you

go to the next audience to see what

545

: 00:27:54

needs to be different to resonate

with this particular audience.

546

: 00:27:57

John: so I guess then that's an

important part of the conversation for

547

: 00:28:00

you to have with one of your clients.

548

: 00:28:02

So who is, or who are

your audiences in general?

549

: 00:28:05

who is this, who is this mostly going to?

550

: 00:28:07

Because if they're saying, oh, like I

mostly speak to engineers and mechanics

551

: 00:28:13

and all like, is gonna be a little bit

different until I, I go to a lot of

552

: 00:28:16

creatives, I go to big corporates or

553

: 00:28:19

Oreet Kaufman: Right, right.

554

: 00:28:19

The

555

: 00:28:20

John: it is gonna matter.

556

: 00:28:21

Oreet Kaufman: Yeah,

557

: 00:28:22

and I think from on sales it's

training experience, I learned how to

558

: 00:28:25

really, fine tune that communications

to say what is the least amount of

559

: 00:28:29

information they need to do their job.

560

: 00:28:31

versus corporate will

want more explanations.

561

: 00:28:34

Corporate will want more of the

reasoning and the data behind it.

562

: 00:28:37

sellers will just, you I, the

example of parking lot training

563

: 00:28:40

in my old organization is that.

564

: 00:28:42

I used to design the training mostly

as a one-pager as much as possible to

565

: 00:28:46

say which case scenario you are in the

parking lot of a customer, what is the

566

: 00:28:51

least amount of information you need to

know to go and have that conversation

567

: 00:28:55

with a customer to close that sale?

568

: 00:28:58

So it is knowing what your audience

needs, how they communicate with their

569

: 00:29:02

customers, with their, audiences as well.

570

: 00:29:08

John: I really like your take on

all of this, and I can see that

571

: 00:29:11

the benefits of this level of

clarity go far beyond just what.

572

: 00:29:17

You deliver on a slide deck, into

hopefully helping people to improve

573

: 00:29:22

their general communication.

574

: 00:29:23

I think it's always good to

remove redundancies and clutter

575

: 00:29:27

in our conversation and, and help

people have more clarity and to

576

: 00:29:30

be honest, in, in particularly

professional settings, time is money.

577

: 00:29:34

After all.

578

: 00:29:34

You hear people saying that

all the time, and yet how much

579

: 00:29:37

time gets wasted from people.

580

: 00:29:40

Not being able to explain themself

or giving too much information or so,

581

: 00:29:45

so I think what you're doing could

be very impactful, beyond, beyond

582

: 00:29:49

just having an amazing slideshow.

583

: 00:29:52

If someone's wanting to come

and work with you, how could

584

: 00:29:57

they find out more about you?

585

: 00:29:59

how would you start that process thinking?

586

: 00:30:01

All right, I want Oreet to help

me get some clarity and do have

587

: 00:30:04

an amazing visual presentation.

588

: 00:30:07

Oreet Kaufman: Absolutely.

589

: 00:30:07

So they can reach out through

the website or through LinkedIn.

590

: 00:30:11

and we'll have a conversation

so I can understand the project

591

: 00:30:14

and the scope of the project.

592

: 00:30:16

Again, getting to.

593

: 00:30:16

The why giving to the audience,

understand the logistics and timing.

594

: 00:30:21

And, then what, once we start the

process, then we, I put together

595

: 00:30:27

what's called a creative preview.

596

: 00:30:29

So I'll send you three to four slides

to make sure we're heading in the

597

: 00:30:32

right direction to make sure, you

get input from you if there's a type

598

: 00:30:36

of, presentation style that you like.

599

: 00:30:38

If it's more modern or more traditional,

whatever it might be, if there's something

600

: 00:30:41

out there you've seen that you like.

601

: 00:30:43

That creative preview sets the

foundation for, presentation.

602

: 00:30:47

So that's your chance of the creative

preview to say, and I tell my clients,

603

: 00:30:51

please tell me honestly, because

this is your project, love it.

604

: 00:30:56

Change this, change that.

605

: 00:30:58

and it might take one or two rounds

different creative directions

606

: 00:31:01

to, to make sure that I'm

producing something that you like.

607

: 00:31:04

And then from there we'll do

draft reviews and finality.

608

: 00:31:07

projects typically take two to

three weeks based on how fast the

609

: 00:31:10

client response with feedback.

610

: 00:31:12

Some take longer based on, again,

everybody's different timelines.

611

: 00:31:15

it's really quite and smooth process.

612

: 00:31:18

John: Fantastic.

613

: 00:31:19

and you've created a helpful

resource that for the audience as

614

: 00:31:23

well could tell us a bit about that.

615

: 00:31:25

Oreet Kaufman: Yeah, so according

a resource that's on my site, it

616

: 00:31:28

talks about the redundant hardware

cutback, the redundancies in

617

: 00:31:31

petition we've been talking about.

618

: 00:31:32

It's I word dieting, chips.

619

: 00:31:35

And it's three tips with examples,

that you can practice today and

620

: 00:31:38

see the before and after, of

cutting, cutting out extra content.

621

: 00:31:43

And so that is on my website.

622

: 00:31:45

You can download it

directly from the site.

623

: 00:31:47

and it's really a good start.

624

: 00:31:48

It's a good starting tips.

625

: 00:31:49

and certainly if you need

help, let's connect and, I can

626

: 00:31:52

help you take that from there.

627

: 00:31:54

John: I'll certainly be making sure

that the information for your website

628

: 00:31:57

has to get in contact with you and

for your word dieting tips is gonna

629

: 00:32:01

be in the show notes for anyone

who wants to go and check that out.

630

: 00:32:03

So do take a look at the show notes

and, uh, go and visit Oreet's site

631

: 00:32:08

and get yourself, at least get

yourself that helpful resource.

632

: 00:32:10

Maybe find out how cool it would be to

work with someone who's gonna help you.

633

: 00:32:14

clean up your communication

clutter and go on a word diet.

634

: 00:32:18

That's sounds like the kind of

diet I could actually stick to.

635

: 00:32:21

So I like that Rick.

636

: 00:32:23

Perfect.

637

: 00:32:23

It is been an absolute pleasure

having you on the show.

638

: 00:32:26

I love some of what you're doing.

639

: 00:32:26

I'm so on board with it and, I'm so

happy that you impatience led you to

640

: 00:32:30

do something so cool and that you're

helping lots of people have much better

641

: 00:32:35

visual storytelling in their talks.

642

: 00:32:37

Really appreciate you coming and

being a guest on Present Influence.

643

: 00:32:39

Thanks.

644

: 00:32:40

Re.

645

: 00:32:40

Oreet Kaufman: Thank you so much, John.

646

: 00:32:41

It was a pleasure.

647

: 00:32:42

John: I just wanted to close things

off today and just say there's been

648

: 00:32:44

a lot of exciting stuff happening.

649

: 00:32:46

If you haven't already checked out my

last episode, that is where you can

650

: 00:32:49

see my very first ever attempt at open

mic standup comedy, as well as my first

651

: 00:32:54

ever speaker slam storytelling event.

652

: 00:32:58

Some significant and important

firsts for me over recent times,

653

: 00:33:01

and I'm sharing them with you.

654

: 00:33:02

There's gonna be more.

655

: 00:33:03

Please look forward to those.

656

: 00:33:04

And I'm happy to say they went pretty

well but there's also plenty of

657

: 00:33:07

room for growth and development.

658

: 00:33:09

So I don't come here on this podcast as

the perfect, I've got it all figured out,

659

: 00:33:13

hey, look at me on I great kind of person.

660

: 00:33:16

I'm on this journey as well

and sharing it with you.

661

: 00:33:19

So I see this as being where we

can grow and develop together.

662

: 00:33:23

Whatever level you're at right now, just

know there's always another level for

663

: 00:33:26

growth and development for you and for me.

664

: 00:33:29

And there should be, that's what

we want the day we stop growing

665

: 00:33:32

and learning, is the day that we

start going in the other direction.

666

: 00:33:35

And that's not good.

667

: 00:33:36

We don't want to, we really

want to think about that.

668

: 00:33:38

But let's wrap things up there for today

and if you're not already subscribed to

669

: 00:33:42

the show, please make sure that you do

and why not leave us a five star review?

670

: 00:33:46

It always makes my day to see them and it

helps other people to know that this is

671

: 00:33:50

a good quality podcast worth tuning into.

672

: 00:33:53

It's been my pleasure speaking with you

today, and I will look forward to seeing

673

: 00:33:56

you on our next episode back on Friday.

674

: 00:33:58

See you then.

675

: 00:33:59

Take care.