Episode 138

Everything you need to know about mind control, manipulation & mentalism | Duncan Stevens

Is hypnosis a real thing?

Is Neuro-Linguistic programming a scam?

Are there important elements of influence and persuasion that just can not be taught?

You will discover the answers to all these questions and more as we delve into the secret world of the mentalist.

Mentalism is the performance art of demonstrating seemingly magical and mysterious powers of influence and persuasion, at times appearing to cross into the realms of magic, but as my guest Duncan Stevens tells us, mentalism and magic are very different worlds. If you have ever seen the amazing Derren Brown at work, you will know that mentalism and tricks or sleights of the mind can be very entertaining and also quite spectacular.

Duncan Stevens is a professional mentalist, a terrific keynote speaker and the author of Effective Influence, one of the few books on influence and persuasion I have ever come across that gives us useful and practical examples of influence and persuasion at work. Duncan is also the CEO and founder of the Influence Association in the UK, an organisation that helps businesses understand and apply the psychology of influence and persuasion, to be able to stand out in the marketplace.

In this very enjoyable and fun conversation, Duncan and I got onto talking about things like manipulation, using influence and persuasion to con people and how stage hypnosis works. We also had the chance to discuss suggestibility and the predictability of humans who like to think of ourselves as unpredictable, which he very capably demonstrates on me with several tricks.

In this episode:

  • What is mentalism?
  • Is hypnosis real?
  • Why mentalism is not magic.
  • Is manipulation always bad?
  • Will Duncan be able to trick Johnny?
  • Why we need to understand influence on business
  • Can you be mind-controlled?
  • What is the one tool of influence that can not be taught?

You can find out more about Duncan at DuncanStevens.com and at the InfluenceAssociation.com and you can check out his book Effective Influence on Amazon https://amzn.to/3KSM322. For Kindle Unlimited users, you can read it for free as part of your subscription. (We use Amazon affiliate links and we may make a few pennies from your purchases but it won't cost you any extra.)

Next time on the show I am speaking with the silky smooth voice of Daniel Tolson, a professional coach, speaker, trainer and podcaster who had so many business fails you would have thought he'd give up. He didn't and he is now very successful and also a super nice guy. I promise you won't want to miss it. Also, keep an eye out for new influence & persuasion book reviews coming up and some new style of episodes where I'm going to share some of my knowledge and experience around influence and persuasion.

Did you enjoy the show? Did you learn anything new or useful? If you did, then the best way to show your appreciation is by sharing the show with your online network. Tag me and I'll give you a shout out on an upcoming episode. Leave a review and I'll read it out on the show.

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Transcript
Johnny:

Welcome to the show.

Johnny:

My name's Johnny Ball.

Johnny:

This is Speaking Influence.

Johnny:

The show will be dive into the world of influence and persuasion to help you build

Johnny:

your authority in your industry and become a powerfully persuasive communicator.

Johnny:

And along the way, maybe learn how to defend yourself against the tools of

Johnny:

influence and persuasion being used against you in your life and business.

Johnny:

Very often on the show, I will chat to people from the world of public speaking,

Johnny:

from psychology, even comedians and professional marketers, brand experts.

Johnny:

And many more besides.

Johnny:

This week, I get to speak to a class of guests.

Johnny:

I've never had the show before, but I really wanted to, for the

Johnny:

longest time, his name is Duncan Stevens , and he is a mentalist as

Johnny:

well as being a professional speaker.

Johnny:

Now, if you don't know what a mentalist is, these are the kinds of people who

Johnny:

Use sort of hypnosis and mind magic to trick you into things

Johnny:

or to influence and persuade you in some very spectacular ways.

Johnny:

And they'll do that in a stage show.

Johnny:

And it can be amazing if you've never seen somebody like Derren Brown, for

Johnny:

example, then you definitely want to start checking this stuff out.

Johnny:

It's quite incredible what they can do.

Johnny:

And Duncan does a little bit of magic in the show here as well, but he's primarily,

Johnny:

talking about influence and persuasion.

Johnny:

He is the founder of the Influence Association in the UK and has written

Johnny:

an amazing book, which we are going to be talking about in the show too.

Johnny:

I hope you'll enjoy this conversation as much as I did.

Johnny:

In fact, I'm sure you will.

Johnny:

. Wherever you are while you are

Johnny:

on the move or relaxing at home or something else entirely.

Johnny:

I hope you will find some great takeaways for this episode

Johnny:

and of course enjoy the show.

Don:

Welcome to Speaking Influence.

Don:

The show that helps you to master the psychology and application

Don:

of ethical influence and persuasion, in life and business.

Don:

With persuasive presentations and podcasting coach, Johnny Ball.

Johnny:

Welcome to Speaking Influence.

Johnny:

Now I am very excited because when I get to have guests come

Johnny:

on the show who I've been hoping to speak to you for a long time.

Johnny:

But when we see excited and I have a guest who is the kind of guest who I've

Johnny:

wanted to bring on the show for the longest time and haven't had them before,

Johnny:

and he is a keynote speaker, he is also an author, but he is also a mentalist.

Johnny:

And so we are going to be having a chat about some of those things, as

Johnny:

well as his book about influence and persuasion and all the stuff that you

Johnny:

love coming to Speaking Influence for.

Johnny:

So let me welcome to the show.

Johnny:

Duncan Stevens.

Duncan Stevens:

Amazing.

Duncan Stevens:

Thanks for having us, Johnny.

Duncan Stevens:

Great to be here.

Johnny:

Great to have you with us.

Johnny:

Okay.

Johnny:

Good luck into the show.

Johnny:

And one of the things that I like to launch into a

Johnny:

people to first of all, start the conversation flowing is to ask

Johnny:

you who's somebody who you admire, who someone you look up to you

Johnny:

for that influence and persuasion?

Duncan Stevens:

I think you wouldn't be worth your salt in influence and

Duncan Stevens:

persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

If you didn't mention Cialdini of course, who

Duncan Stevens:

wouldn't mention his name, of course, the godfather of influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

but he does that in a very formal, way and What the kind of tools

Duncan Stevens:

that you'd use in business.

Duncan Stevens:

However, if I was to look at for somebody who kind of tweaks them

Duncan Stevens:

for influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

and entertainment, spin on things and uses it for entertainment.

Duncan Stevens:

I would of course say Derren Brown, but kind of two leaders

Duncan Stevens:

in that specific fields.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, Derren Brown looks at it in a, in a more entertainment digestible way.

Duncan Stevens:

I sometimes feel, you know, Cialdini's books are sometimes this thick and

Duncan Stevens:

whilst they're full of great information, you know, sometimes you'd like to

Duncan Stevens:

experience influence and persuasion in a bit more lighthearted manner.

Johnny:

Yeah, I would agree with you that those are both names of people

Johnny:

who I would love to get on my show.

Johnny:

I, I'm not sure I'm quite big enough for them yet, but hopefully at some point.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

hopefully I'm working my working my way up to that.

Johnny:

And, uh, I'm certainly very glad I fell out.

Johnny:

I had to work my way up to P to having guests like yourself on Duncan as well.

Johnny:

And that's a great privilege for me.

Johnny:

I know, I know I'm sort of working up to some of those top names at

Johnny:

some point in the future as well.

Johnny:

Those are great examples and people who certainly I've followed in the world

Johnny:

of influence and persuasion as well.

Johnny:

And, one of the things I loved what you said there as well, is that You

Johnny:

mentioned about how someone like Cialdini has a lot of information in

Johnny:

his book, but perhaps you don't always take away the practical side of that.

Johnny:

And I know in your book, you talked about how, you felt it was important to have

Johnny:

the takeaways, to have the stuff that this is how You how you would use that.

Johnny:

It's like yeah, you can see the study, but what does it mean to you?

Johnny:

If you don't know how to apply it?

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

No, absolutely.

Duncan Stevens:

I think, um, if you if you, if you look in my book, I try and lead

Duncan Stevens:

with a, a question that.

Duncan Stevens:

words That you could essentially pose to yourself before getting into which suppose

Duncan Stevens:

has come to the masses through, let's say Derren Brown or magic, let's call it.

Duncan Stevens:

Often people go, well, That must be set up.

Duncan Stevens:

Or, or I wouldn't behave like that Oh, of a building as one

Duncan Stevens:

of Derren Brown's specials.

Duncan Stevens:

I wouldn't, I wouldn't be influenced to push somebody off over a building,

Duncan Stevens:

as you know, often with, with some of the steps in any form of influence and

Duncan Stevens:

persuasion, you don't go for that big ask.

Duncan Stevens:

You might build it up slowly, slowly, slowly.

Duncan Stevens:

So unless, unless it's situational sometimes or

Duncan Stevens:

you're asked to think about it.

Duncan Stevens:

You probably start thinking, well, no, I wouldn't do that.

Duncan Stevens:

And this is why I think one of, one of the books, one of the experiments I

Duncan Stevens:

spoke about is perhaps the most famous is the Milgram experiment, which I'm

Duncan Stevens:

sure your listeners are aware of.

Duncan Stevens:

Of course,

Duncan Stevens:

Milgram getting somebody to fire up increasingly powerful volts onto,

Duncan Stevens:

participant, which is actually an actor, but then the actual person

Duncan Stevens:

taking part is actually the, uh, the person in the experiment.

Duncan Stevens:

But I start off with making the illusion of that.

Duncan Stevens:

Powerful of voltage is linked to pulling back an elastic band on your

Duncan Stevens:

hand, which is equivalent to 15 volts.

Duncan Stevens:

Because when we look at the numbers of like, would you.

Duncan Stevens:

And electrocute somebody with 15 volts.

Duncan Stevens:

What's 15 volts.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, go on.

Duncan Stevens:

Then what's 40 volts.

Duncan Stevens:

But if you put it in a context of any form of influence persuasion, I think

Duncan Stevens:

when you contextualize something I think that's where the, what gives it, it's the

Duncan Stevens:

substance and the belief and the, yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

The appreciation of what influence persuasion

Johnny:

Yeah, I think probably anyone who's read like Cialdini or your book

Johnny:

or any of the significant books on influence and persuasion, hopefully we'll

Johnny:

have come across Milgram's experiments before and be very familiar with that.

Johnny:

And he's important and especially understanding how we are influenced

Johnny:

by authority in that particular situation, as much as anything else

Johnny:

in this, I guess there's a social proof aspect to that as well.

Johnny:

You have pretty, a pretty nice definition of influence and persuasion in the book.

Johnny:

And it's not something that I've often tried, had various ways of

Johnny:

describing five, trying to make it

Johnny:

nice and simple for people sometimes that diving into that a bit, but for the

Johnny:

benefit of our listeners on the show,

Johnny:

What, how, how do you describe, how do you describe influence

Johnny:

and persuasion?

Duncan Stevens:

What did I put in the book?

Duncan Stevens:

You

Johnny:

want me to quote your

Johnny:

own book to you do you?.

Duncan Stevens:

Influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

The thing is I put it in my words, in my, how I see it.

Duncan Stevens:

I think influence

Duncan Stevens:

the persuasion rather than me just go from a book and saying, this is it.

Duncan Stevens:

Everybody has a different way of interpreting what influence

Duncan Stevens:

and persuasion is for them.

Duncan Stevens:

And certainly do my shows.

Duncan Stevens:

You know, my feeling of influence and persuasion would be very

Duncan Stevens:

different to the next person and very different to the next person.

Duncan Stevens:

So I don't think there's, that sounds like a cop-out, but I don't

Duncan Stevens:

think there's any one set way of defining, influence and persuasion,

Duncan Stevens:

because some people.

Duncan Stevens:

For example, for example one of, I, I believe the most

Duncan Stevens:

important things of influence and persuasion is, is authenticity.

Duncan Stevens:

And with authenticity comes all of the beautiful things in human being.

Duncan Stevens:

I empathy, I love sharing, caring, all the things that when I'm a bit

Duncan Stevens:

more spiritual, a bit more ..twee, that we wouldn't naturally associate

Duncan Stevens:

with influence because influence to some people is seen as manipulation.

Duncan Stevens:

It's not, if you're doing it like that, it's very wrong, but.

Duncan Stevens:

So for those people, if you are being authentic, if you are being

Duncan Stevens:

empathetic, if you are as an example, if I was to take, if you, if you.

Duncan Stevens:

battered and bruised, hungry and thirsty from the recent pandemic.

Duncan Stevens:

I wouldn't come up to you and start selling you cookery courses.

Duncan Stevens:

If that's what my job was, I'd put my arm around you.

Duncan Stevens:

I'd give you food.

Duncan Stevens:

I'd give you water.

Duncan Stevens:

I'd make you feel warm and comforted, and only then start

Duncan Stevens:

talking to you about what's next.

Duncan Stevens:

Now, if I do that with no premeditation and you in the future, want to

Duncan Stevens:

collaborate with me, you should never think you've been influenced.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah,

Duncan Stevens:

I should almost be no such thing as influence.

Duncan Stevens:

I believe there should be this word shouldn't exist.

Johnny:

but, but it does.

Duncan Stevens:

We have to give it a word, but they shouldn't, you know?

Johnny:

I think one of the things I liked from how you describe it

Johnny:

in your book was about saying that it's like an expression of your

Johnny:

values through character and that's, what's actually influencing people.

Johnny:

I think you, you also quote Aristotle, who's saying that the

Johnny:

greatest influence is character, which, which, I think is very

Johnny:

important, but when you take that in mind, we are always

Johnny:

influencing whether we

Johnny:

are consciously doing it or not, or whether we're

Johnny:

intending to influence or not.

Johnny:

We're always

Johnny:

doing that.

Duncan Stevens:

Well, yeah, I mean, like you say, like saying the book,

Duncan Stevens:

it's one of the many transactions we're having with life, the influence

Duncan Stevens:

and, or be an influence, but we don't naturally or consciously think about

Duncan Stevens:

it is the same as our transaction of life breathing out and breathing in.

Duncan Stevens:

We're having a transaction with a tree.

Duncan Stevens:

You know, if that tree wasn't there, we wouldn't be here.

Duncan Stevens:

If we weren't here, the tree will be there.

Duncan Stevens:

It's the same kind of thing.

Duncan Stevens:

And we don't experience.

Duncan Stevens:

There's a consciousness in it.

Duncan Stevens:

I think on the minute you start elevating your consciousness into, again, we've

Duncan Stevens:

gone onto the more spiritual side as you start elevating your consciousness

Duncan Stevens:

into how can I help this person?

Duncan Stevens:

That person will, in future, look at no other person to collaborate with or very

Duncan Stevens:

all that you become in the market of one only because you positioned yourself

Duncan Stevens:

again, positioning yourself into a place of, like you said, your, your values.

Duncan Stevens:

People do again.

Duncan Stevens:

A lot of this stuff I say is what we know, but people do business with

Duncan Stevens:

people they know like, and trust.

Duncan Stevens:

You can say that all day long until you're blue in the face.

Duncan Stevens:

However, if in your mind, you'll think you are just want to get one over on

Duncan Stevens:

this person, are they going to like you?

Johnny:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

I, I get, I give you an example.

Duncan Stevens:

So authenticity, I think is even an even greater distilled

Duncan Stevens:

down version of what influences alongside the values and things.

Duncan Stevens:

And there's a great story I heard once.

Duncan Stevens:

And it's about a bull and a pheasant.

Duncan Stevens:

So there was a bull in a field.

Duncan Stevens:

Just chewing on the grass and there was a pheasant, but landed on top of him.

Duncan Stevens:

The pheasant looked at the tree and he said to the bull, a long

Duncan Stevens:

time ago, I used to be able to fly to the very top of that tree.

Duncan Stevens:

The bull says to him, well, I'll tell you the secret.

Duncan Stevens:

What you want to do is you want to take eat some of my dung on

Duncan Stevens:

you'll find yourself, be able to get to the very top of that.

Duncan Stevens:

The pheasant was very now.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm not sure it's going to work anyway.

Duncan Stevens:

He tried it.

Duncan Stevens:

So the first day he started packing it, the cows dung and sure

Duncan Stevens:

enough, it was on the first branch.

Duncan Stevens:

Second day,

Duncan Stevens:

he was on the second branch and within a week, you'd wish that very top of

Duncan Stevens:

the branch and the top of the tree, the farmer in the house opposite.

Duncan Stevens:

He saw the pheasant at the top of the tree.

Duncan Stevens:

He pulled out his gun shot the pheasant right off of the tree, the

Duncan Stevens:

moral of the story is bullshit might get you to the top of the tree, but

Duncan Stevens:

it certainly won't keep you there.

Duncan Stevens:

And that in itself is a nice little story, which kind of does emphasis

Duncan Stevens:

the importance of authenticity.

Duncan Stevens:

You might have to ride out the bull as

Duncan Stevens:

it is an authentic on authentic mindset.

Duncan Stevens:

And if you take even people like the best salespeople in the world, of

Duncan Stevens:

course, you're familiar with Joe Gerard and Allie Raider, Joe, Joe, the one

Duncan Stevens:

of the greatest Chevrolet salespeople.

Duncan Stevens:

And he attributed his success to exactly the same things that was just liking

Duncan Stevens:

people being the same as those people.

Duncan Stevens:

Sending the sending them out a Christmas card with a different

Duncan Stevens:

picture on the front every year.

Duncan Stevens:

This is just one of his things.

Duncan Stevens:

And that's what we do when we like somebody.

Duncan Stevens:

You send him a Christmas card.

Duncan Stevens:

It's not like I'm sending a Christmas card because I want something back.

Duncan Stevens:

You don't expect a Christmas card, but you just do it because

Duncan Stevens:

that's just the human nature.

Duncan Stevens:

Just to be nice and lovely to

Johnny:

Yeah, it's funny.

Johnny:

I always think that of all of Cialdini's influence and persuasion principles,

Johnny:

likability is the most underrated.

Johnny:

And the one that the fewest people seem to talk about, everyone's always

Johnny:

talking about reciprocity and social

Johnny:

proof and everything else, but likability is super important.

Duncan Stevens:

I I think it's, I think it's talked about that little alongside

Duncan Stevens:

authenticity for one very big reason.

Duncan Stevens:

You can'teach it.

Duncan Stevens:

You can't teach somebody to be likable.

Duncan Stevens:

You can't teach somebody to be authentic.

Duncan Stevens:

And I say that, I talk about is my keynote speech.

Duncan Stevens:

You know, you can on the other hand and teach somebody how not to be non

Duncan Stevens:

authentic or not likable, but you should know that anyway, but people don't.

Duncan Stevens:

Sandy Tommer or guitarist probably still around.

Duncan Stevens:

Fantastic.

Duncan Stevens:

And the name of our album.

Duncan Stevens:

It was smile, it confuses people.

Duncan Stevens:

I like ability of just smiling.

Duncan Stevens:

We've kind of lost this now a little bit, but yeah, you're absolutely right.

Duncan Stevens:

Likeability.

Duncan Stevens:

A hundred percent agree

Johnny:

I was delivering a corporate presentation just last week and,

Johnny:

and really the whole theme of that, because it was related to people who

Johnny:

were working at trade shows was about.

Johnny:

Having this warmth and approachability that people should feel that they

Johnny:

can count to, that they want to, and that they can feel relaxed with you.

Johnny:

And I think, oh wait, I like this person.

Johnny:

And that you can feel that with them, but it has to come from something genuine.

Johnny:

And I really think that people don't genuinely appraise that they

Johnny:

think, oh, I've got to make a sale.

Johnny:

I've got to hit my target.

Johnny:

I got to try and speak to as many people as I can.

Johnny:

Even, even if they're complete, a-holes, you know, it's like,

Johnny:

well, I think there's a better.

Johnny:

And I, and we can have better relationships in life and business when

Johnny:

we, when we focus on those things instead.

Johnny:

And, you know, I also think there's this aspect to influence and persuasion where

Johnny:

it comes up in Cialdini mentions it.

Johnny:

And I've just been reading a book called the charisma myth and which, which

Johnny:

is also, which also mentioned that, that training, these sorts of skills

Johnny:

is something that could actually be.

Johnny:

Training up the next generation of con artists.

Johnny:

So people, people who are going to cynically take these principles and

Johnny:

apply them and rip people off or utilize them just to get their own way and get

Johnny:

what they want more than what we would associate with the manipulation side

Johnny:

of this.

Johnny:

W what are your thoughts around

Johnny:

that?

Duncan Stevens:

So con artist con artist is a short for confidence artists.

Duncan Stevens:

So somebody who has the confidence to Deliver these skills.

Duncan Stevens:

Let's say, once you start, when did you start pulling them skills

Duncan Stevens:

or techniques or strategies?

Duncan Stevens:

That's when it becomes manipulative to some extent.

Duncan Stevens:

So my thoughts on this are there was some people who let's say who've never

Duncan Stevens:

read Cialdini's book who have never read anything about influence and persuasion,

Duncan Stevens:

but are just naturally good at doing this.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think it's remiss of us as humans, not to read books,

Duncan Stevens:

learn, evolve ourselves.

Duncan Stevens:

And therefore we get to understand these parts of our personality or

Duncan Stevens:

behaviors or actions, which we may be lacking in and it books or learnings may

Duncan Stevens:

merely lend to highlight those parts.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think.

Duncan Stevens:

If you're highlighting those, you can approach them in your own way.

Duncan Stevens:

Cialdini's not written a book, which says you must do this.

Duncan Stevens:

This is the law of influence.

Duncan Stevens:

These are what they are.

Duncan Stevens:

Fantastic principles, et cetera, but they merely serve as a

Duncan Stevens:

guide or reference points.

Duncan Stevens:

And if you were to take them straight out and then apply them as strategies

Duncan Stevens:

as techniques, again, it will be like that pheasant you'll quickly

Duncan Stevens:

see and get found out as an authentic and just applying strategies.

Duncan Stevens:

I do.

Duncan Stevens:

However, think that in the world of automation and AI, I

Duncan Stevens:

don't, this is just my belief.

Duncan Stevens:

It's not never something I've spoken about that you can in theory, take

Duncan Stevens:

these principles and apply them into AI, into automated systems.

Duncan Stevens:

And that could be dangerous because yeah, that could be dangerous.

Duncan Stevens:

However, when you're dealing with people you can kind of what's that,

Duncan Stevens:

that smells like you can kind of feel it when it's automated and you

Duncan Stevens:

start pooling, lots more information.

Duncan Stevens:

Like you mentioned earlier about the ocean model, different, different parts

Duncan Stevens:

of our personality, that openness, agreeableness, and neuroticism, et

Duncan Stevens:

cetera, et cetera, you start finessing all of those things together.

Duncan Stevens:

And we're kind of in a real different place in influence and persuasion,

Duncan Stevens:

but in terms of conning people, yes.

Duncan Stevens:

I think that is definitely that way.

Duncan Stevens:

And I suppose you can liken it to the world of pickup artistry.

Duncan Stevens:

So guides learn how to.

Duncan Stevens:

Approach and date and seduce ladies where the girls do that to men.

Duncan Stevens:

I don't know.

Duncan Stevens:

Maybe there's a world of that as well.

Johnny:

Probably not.

Duncan Stevens:

Hopefully not, but yeah, again, essentially,

Duncan Stevens:

that you're highlighting those parts of the personality,

Duncan Stevens:

which you're not confident in.

Duncan Stevens:

So you might not have the ability to make a feel, lady feel special

Duncan Stevens:

or loved, or you might not have the confidence to speak to them, or you

Duncan Stevens:

might not have certain abilities.

Duncan Stevens:

Other people may have.

Duncan Stevens:

So I think it's just highlighting those.

Johnny:

Yeah, I think my take on it is more that the people who want to use those

Johnny:

sorts of things to manipulate people will find a way to learn those skills even.

Johnny:

And it's probably not going to be from from a more official

Johnny:

textbook or something.

Johnny:

Someone like Cialdini or maybe Robert Green, I don't know.

Johnny:

But

Johnny:

some people describe maybe his stuff as being a bit more practical application

Johnny:

and principles and and a bit more amoral.

Johnny:

Ultimately, he's just putting out there information about

Johnny:

what works and what doesn't.

Johnny:

But I think when we look to the origins of something like rhetoric which was

Johnny:

designed really with that in mind, the principles of truth telling, and being

Johnny:

able to help positively get messages out into the world, at least in its

Johnny:

origins that as a tool as well can be used for the opposite effects now.

Johnny:

And so the, the same kind of things that it's just a tool,

Johnny:

it's just a tool or a way

Johnny:

to create influence a way to persuade and develop with people.

Johnny:

And so all of Cialdini's principles.

Johnny:

So all of our greens or anyone else's principles around influence

Johnny:

and persuasion that we can take them and use them for good or not.

Johnny:

But if you don't know them, it's far easier to use them on you than it is

Johnny:

for somebody who doesn't know them.

Johnny:

And so that's what I think is like, it's really important for people

Johnny:

to know this stuff, but I also noticed in your book, you also have.

Johnny:

Things like cognitive bias and critical thinking skills, but

Johnny:

things like, cognitive bias, which most people don't understand.

Johnny:

And, and heuristics.

Johnny:

The shortcuts we will take it as one in life.

Johnny:

I think those things are super important here, but why did

Johnny:

you bring them into your book?

Duncan Stevens:

I think because like, like, I think now more

Duncan Stevens:

than ever heuristics people are essentially heuristics is the

Duncan Stevens:

little shortcuts in people's minds, which you can take advantage of.

Duncan Stevens:

But for me, why it was important because it sits alongside influence

Duncan Stevens:

and persuasion because like you kind of alluded to there, it kind of allows

Duncan Stevens:

people to take an objective, look at to

Duncan Stevens:

how they are potentially being influenced or looking at that position

Duncan Stevens:

with influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

So I mentioned about, I think dogs, maybe I mentioned, but yeah, if you

Duncan Stevens:

take a ti, a dog starts barking and then another dog starts barking and

Duncan Stevens:

another dog starts barking at that dog.

Duncan Stevens:

And all of a sudden, the last dog, every, all the dogs are barking, but

Duncan Stevens:

the first dog doesn't realize why that, why it's barking in the first place

Duncan Stevens:

only because the other dogs are barking.

Duncan Stevens:

I suppose.

Duncan Stevens:

It's another way of.

Duncan Stevens:

Sheep, the sheep analogy.

Duncan Stevens:

We're all just sheep.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think now where, where we're so easily not, yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

Maybe influence, maybe manipulated into making certain decisions which

Duncan Stevens:

you may perhaps regret I'm not talking about Brexit or anything like that.

Johnny:

Could be very right.

Duncan Stevens:

But where people, I'm not saying Brexit, whether it's right

Duncan Stevens:

or wrong, but people who have, who have been influenced in to making those

Duncan Stevens:

decisions and then look back and think, oh, why did I do that in the first place?

Duncan Stevens:

Or why.

Duncan Stevens:

Donald Trump gets voted into power in the first, what you know, or

Duncan Stevens:

other even smaller than that.

Duncan Stevens:

Like why, why, why is there, so I suppose in a way that links back

Duncan Stevens:

to this whole automation and how influence and persuasion can be

Duncan Stevens:

automated and how it is slowly becoming dovetailed with technology.

Duncan Stevens:

So I think it's it's to highlight.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

The, the fact that we can be influenced can be manipulated and how those

Duncan Stevens:

how, how, how influence and persuasion can kind of wiggle into influencing.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

I mean, some of my guests in the past, people who are perhaps been professors

Johnny:

of rhetoric on the show and people who really study at the highest academic

Johnny:

levels, which sometimes you have to be careful not to get stuck in the

Johnny:

weeds in those kinds of conversations.

Johnny:

But but what does become clear is they have a belief that influence and

Johnny:

persuasion and critical thinking skills have the power to transform humanity

Johnny:

to make the world a better place.

Johnny:

If applied in the right ways that the people who are off to who often

Johnny:

we see using them or using against us, use them to get what they want.

Johnny:

And that's why it's so important now to have this kind of education so that

Johnny:

we could, first of all, we can apply them in ways that are actually going

Johnny:

to benefit people, but also to defend ourselves against the misuse of these

Johnny:

things as well, when we recognize it.

Johnny:

But I think it's a fascinating area.

Johnny:

And though we could have a whole show, a whole podcast about that.

Johnny:

Just that one thing to be, to be honest, But let me, let me bring things back

Johnny:

to influence and persuasion in terms of really asking you as a mentalist.

Johnny:

And this is, I wanted to have an interest on the story for the longest time.

Johnny:

What is mentalism?

Johnny:

How do you define that?

Duncan Stevens:

Some mentalism it's going to be again, different

Duncan Stevens:

to different people, but for me,

Duncan Stevens:

Mentalism is a performing art.

Duncan Stevens:

That's the biggest umbrella I would give it which sometimes people

Duncan Stevens:

confuse with magic magic is trickery, slight of hand, that kind of thing.

Duncan Stevens:

Whereas mentalism is is an offshoot of that, of where you still have

Duncan Stevens:

the entertainment factor of magic.

Duncan Stevens:

But you also have the mystery of magic, but the mystery doesn't

Duncan Stevens:

come from slight of hand or visual slides, it comes from more influence

Duncan Stevens:

and persuasion, psychological slights of the mind if you will.

Duncan Stevens:

So that's how I would probably describe it.

Duncan Stevens:

It's more influenced than psychologically.

Duncan Stevens:

Magic, but not magic because magic is a different field.

Duncan Stevens:

So I think as with any form of mentalism or any form of kind of mystery arts,

Duncan Stevens:

you'd probably use influence persuasion, showmanship, a little bit of magic,

Duncan Stevens:

a little bit of misdirection, and you mix them in, in different elements.

Duncan Stevens:

Mentalism is a lot more heavily based on the psychology,

Duncan Stevens:

the psychological elements.

Duncan Stevens:

So, yeah.

Johnny:

I know.

Johnny:

But when we watch someone like Darren brown, who you mentioned earlier on his TV

Johnny:

shows on specials There always seems to be this element of hypnosis to a lot of the

Johnny:

stuff that he does, and yet having read some of his books, he doesn't really seem

Johnny:

to be a big believer, that hypnosis is a real thing is just like a psychological

Johnny:

process, but it's not, probably not what we think it is.

Johnny:

What do you involve that in, in your mentalism?

Johnny:

Is that

Johnny:

something and do you do you think hypnosis is a thing.

Duncan Stevens:

Not a great question.

Duncan Stevens:

A great question.

Duncan Stevens:

And much like influence it is a thing, but it's also not a

Duncan Stevens:

thing because it shouldn't be a

Duncan Stevens:

thing.

Duncan Stevens:

It knows this is the thing, but it's not a thing because it is essentially another

Duncan Stevens:

word for suggestion, but suggestion is got so many other uses to it anyway.

Duncan Stevens:

So you have to give it a new name, if that makes sense.

Duncan Stevens:

So hypnosis essentially.

Duncan Stevens:

A deeper level of suggestion.

Duncan Stevens:

So I have dabbled with hypnosis.

Duncan Stevens:

And when I kind of do a part interview with the person who's been hypnotized, I,

Duncan Stevens:

I asked him, what was that like for you?

Duncan Stevens:

And it was, I just felt natural for me to do it.

Duncan Stevens:

And so is it just a form of suggestion and the way you progressed

Duncan Stevens:

hypnosis, uh, to kind of, to this, you would start off with.

Duncan Stevens:

A big audience, a big audience, you then do some they're called

Duncan Stevens:

set pieces of psychological tricks.

Duncan Stevens:

Let's say to see who is the most susceptible or open to suggestion and

Duncan Stevens:

then whittle them down before you have one very, very suggestible person.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think.

Duncan Stevens:

That can, that has some crossover into what we speak about influence as well.

Duncan Stevens:

You know, some people may be more influenced than others

Duncan Stevens:

because they're more open.

Duncan Stevens:

Why are they more open?

Duncan Stevens:

Because maybe you've nurtured a more beautiful relationship with that person.

Duncan Stevens:

At the time, understanding that person or more importantly, you've understood

Duncan Stevens:

their needs as opposed to that one.

Duncan Stevens:

Cause I think that's another important part of influence, persuasion

Duncan Stevens:

and understanding the needs of a person, not just their wants.

Duncan Stevens:

So yeah, I think there is a crossover.

Duncan Stevens:

There is such a thing as hypnosis, but not as the lay person would know how so.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

I mean, I see probably sent you, sent me in terms of the sort of

Johnny:

entertainment level of hypnosis.

Johnny:

As being, people's willingness to turn over responsibility

Johnny:

that I'm not responsible for this.

Johnny:

Therefore I can do

Johnny:

what these crazy things that the person's asking

Johnny:

me to do.

Johnny:

So when they're on the stage, thinking it's not me doing it, it's him.

Johnny:

He's

Johnny:

making me do this, but it is, you still have volition, even if

Johnny:

you, even if you're not aware of

Johnny:

it,

Duncan Stevens:

Absolutely.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think, I think again, you know, quite, uh, quite impressive, you

Duncan Stevens:

brought up hypnosis in this particular conversation because there is a massive

Duncan Stevens:

similarity, massive similarity, which has never really spoken about, because

Duncan Stevens:

again, that you mentioned about taking somebody on the stage, they

Duncan Stevens:

probably wouldn't behave like that.

Duncan Stevens:

They probably wouldn't behave like that.

Duncan Stevens:

If they didn't feel safe in that environment.

Duncan Stevens:

And the same was influenced persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

People wouldn't behave a certain way if they didn't feel safe to do so.

Duncan Stevens:

And I don't mean safe in the typical way.

Duncan Stevens:

I just mean they're not going to be made to feel silly, or if that's something

Duncan Stevens:

that they're worried about or they're not going to be made to, I think Yeah, I

Duncan Stevens:

think there's a, there's an experiment.

Duncan Stevens:

I I'm included in the book about somebody putting their hand in a beaker of acid.

Duncan Stevens:

If you, if you read through the book, I forget, forget the experiment in

Duncan Stevens:

its entirety, but they, there was a beak of acid that the participants

Duncan Stevens:

could very well have put their hands in, but only because they knew that

Duncan Stevens:

the the, the person conducting the experiment would never let that happen.

Duncan Stevens:

They didn't do it.

Duncan Stevens:

Read it is it's a fascinating experiment, but there is a great

Duncan Stevens:

deal of similarity between hypnosis and influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

And I suppose combined, if you combine them, that's when it becomes manipulative.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

I guess so, I mean, you mentioned in your book as well, the manipulation

Johnny:

isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Johnny:

It just has a lot of bad associations, but the word itself

Johnny:

is actually pretty neutral.

Johnny:

It's just everything that has become more, more commonly associated with

Johnny:

it, which is why even liberal on

Johnny:

shows like this tend to avoid using, or you would refer to it in a

Johnny:

negative context, which again, just goes on to keep reinforcing that.

Johnny:

But

Johnny:

ultimately that's pretty much where the

Johnny:

common definition is that.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

I think, I think manipulation is essentially more heavily.

Duncan Stevens:

More heavily focused on premeditated premeditation.

Duncan Stevens:

So if you're going into an influence observation, what can I get it for me?

Duncan Stevens:

What can I do for me?

Duncan Stevens:

Me, me, me, me, me, me and it's premeditated.

Duncan Stevens:

That's where it's becomes manipulative.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, I

Johnny:

For sure.

Johnny:

Now you did bring up earlier the the five factor personality model.

Johnny:

Can, can you tell us a little bit

Johnny:

more about that?

Johnny:

You mentioned some of them already, I think.

Johnny:

openness and agreeableness and neuroticism, but what are the five

Johnny:

factors in the personality model?

Duncan Stevens:

So you've got openness conscientiousness, agreeableness,

Duncan Stevens:

neuroticism and extroversion.

Duncan Stevens:

So over, over the last, I think since the seventies, everybody

Duncan Stevens:

has different personalities.

Duncan Stevens:

That they behave differently in different situations towards I think the analogy

Duncan Stevens:

I, or the, the analogy I gave, which may be again, your listeners could think

Duncan Stevens:

about if you own this fabulous beach fronted property, and you'll have people

Duncan Stevens:

walking along that front of the beach and you don't want to do in any way.

Duncan Stevens:

You could put up two signs where you could put up many

Duncan Stevens:

signs, but let's take two signs.

Duncan Stevens:

The first one says sharks sighted, keep out.

Duncan Stevens:

The other one says private property keep off.

Duncan Stevens:

So one is a fair base form of influence sharks, sighted, keep out.

Duncan Stevens:

And the other one is based on the law or the balls

Duncan Stevens:

and people are going to react differently to both of those.

Duncan Stevens:

Because they're using two different forms of influence.

Duncan Stevens:

And so this is essentially how influences become in terms of Facebook or Instagram

Duncan Stevens:

or targeted marketing because you might react to different way to the other

Duncan Stevens:

person yet still using the same influence let's call them techniques for now.

Duncan Stevens:

Because you are a different personality, cause you've been brought up differently.

Duncan Stevens:

Your worldview is very different.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think it's important to give those things some consideration as well.

Duncan Stevens:

Just as much as the Cialdini principles of persuasion because.

Duncan Stevens:

You have a, you might have a different form of religion.

Duncan Stevens:

You might read the different kind of newspaper.

Duncan Stevens:

You might have a different world belief.

Duncan Stevens:

You might have children.

Duncan Stevens:

And if you've got children, you might be able to somebody

Duncan Stevens:

differently to somebody who's not grandchildren, et cetera, et cetera.

Duncan Stevens:

So I think these five forms of fi five personalities are essentially a distilled

Duncan Stevens:

down version of the many millions of thousands of different individual

Duncan Stevens:

personality traits that we have and how that you can tailor your influence

Duncan Stevens:

to these?

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, just more granularly.

Johnny:

you, would you say that all the five types are equally persuadable

Johnny:

or are there some types that are perhaps more susceptible to things like

Johnny:

suggestion and say manipulation and other forms of influence and persuasion?

Duncan Stevens:

I think that if you are, let's do

Duncan Stevens:

this, you're in a top floor of a of a building and you open up the door and

Duncan Stevens:

it, and it looks out onto it onto a tight rope leading over to the next building.

Duncan Stevens:

If I gave you 10,000 pounds or $10,000, Johnny, would you do it?

Duncan Stevens:

Would you walk around that tight rope?

Johnny:

I would

Duncan Stevens:

The other.

Duncan Stevens:

How about if I was to give you $50,000,

Johnny:

is no amount of money.

Duncan Stevens:

no amount of money.

Duncan Stevens:

What about, what about if that room was on fire?

Johnny:

The one that I was in,

Duncan Stevens:

The one that you.

Johnny:

If, if That was my only escape routes, I might just

Duncan Stevens:

Exactly.

Duncan Stevens:

Exactly.

Duncan Stevens:

So you, there are you, there are not motivated by money.

Duncan Stevens:

You're

Duncan Stevens:

motivated by the fear and of course, death, or of course survival.

Duncan Stevens:

Now for some people we may never I've, I've gone.

Duncan Stevens:

I've distilled that down, but some people may go, yeah, I'll take you.

Duncan Stevens:

I'll take your 10,000 off.

Duncan Stevens:

But equally, so if we were to link this back into a.

Duncan Stevens:

Into a work environment, which I think is really important for your listeners,

Duncan Stevens:

as much as anything else, just talking about if you're a manager and you want to

Duncan Stevens:

motivate your staff through an incentive, you may think, oh, let's give a hundred

Duncan Stevens:

pounds to Tommy could do with a hundred pounds, that's going to incentivize him.

Duncan Stevens:

And you might think you could have a blanket approach to

Duncan Stevens:

give everybody a hundred pounds when they do something great.

Duncan Stevens:

However, Julie May have three children that she doesn't get to see as much

Duncan Stevens:

as she wants, and she'd love to go and pick them up after school.

Duncan Stevens:

Her motivation would be leaving just 20 minutes, half an hour early.

Duncan Stevens:

Bob may like his bottle of champagne.

Duncan Stevens:

Cheryl, she doesn't drink.

Duncan Stevens:

So you wouldn't incentivize her with the bottle of champagne.

Duncan Stevens:

We conducted a study based on these kinds of ideas with influence association.

Duncan Stevens:

And we asked people, we got a survey of about five or 6,000 different people

Duncan Stevens:

to find out what motivates them or what what's, what influences them the most.

Duncan Stevens:

And out of all of those things, bottle of champagnes, and money, et cetera.

Duncan Stevens:

The one thing that came up most was a handwritten note

Duncan Stevens:

from the director, from the.

Duncan Stevens:

Handwritten note from the boss.

Duncan Stevens:

I dunno, I'd probably take the 10,000, but that wasn't everybody.

Duncan Stevens:

That was everybody.

Duncan Stevens:

So, uh, so yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

So in answer to your question, which I've kind of gone off tangent,

Duncan Stevens:

everybody is going to be have different motivations and everybody is, is

Duncan Stevens:

going to be influenced slightly different based on that personality.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think that those two examples kind of emphasize that.

Johnny:

you mentioned in your book.

Johnny:

I think you're showing here as well, that you are pretty good at getting to

Johnny:

what somebody's personality model Is

Johnny:

very quickly.

Johnny:

Is that a beneficial skill that both people could have, or is it in the realms

Johnny:

of takes hours and hours

Johnny:

of practice is really sort of more the realm of mentalists

Johnny:

and trust professionals?

Johnny:

What would you say to them?

Duncan Stevens:

So, yeah, so I say that in a loose way.

Duncan Stevens:

I mean, I couldn't, I couldn't do it a hundred percent of the

Duncan Stevens:

time to a hundred percent of the people, but the more you engage with

Duncan Stevens:

people the more

Duncan Stevens:

nuances that you see in people, which are unbelievable and how similar people are.

Duncan Stevens:

So I often say one of the most predictable things about people is the fact they

Duncan Stevens:

believe they're unpredictable and by default that makes them more predictable.

Duncan Stevens:

So if so with that in mind, you can kind of guess what actions certain people do

Duncan Stevens:

or what behaviors they're going to do.

Duncan Stevens:

And again, when we mentioned about hypnosis, somebody comes up on

Duncan Stevens:

the stage based on out of this wide audience, who's coming up,

Duncan Stevens:

who's really wanting to come up.

Duncan Stevens:

They're going to be influenced slightly different to somebody else.

Duncan Stevens:

So, yeah, I'll take, I'll take an example for you actually.

Duncan Stevens:

So the deck of cards, I did say there was a kind of an element of overlap

Duncan Stevens:

between magic and mind reading.

Duncan Stevens:

I don't do anything with cards only because sometimes people think

Duncan Stevens:

there's a, it's a magic trick, but I'm going to tell you there's one

Duncan Stevens:

card face down inside of here now.

Duncan Stevens:

Absolutely hands on your heart.

Duncan Stevens:

I've not asked you to beforehand to think of a playing card

Duncan Stevens:

or set anything up before.

Duncan Stevens:

Perfect.

Duncan Stevens:

So what I want you to do is think of a playing, think of a color red or black.

Duncan Stevens:

Let's break it down.

Duncan Stevens:

Think of a color red or black.

Duncan Stevens:

What do you want to go for?

Duncan Stevens:

Do you want to go for a diamond or a heart?

Duncan Stevens:

A number of a picture picture.

Duncan Stevens:

Don't go for a king.

Duncan Stevens:

Everyone picks a king.

Duncan Stevens:

Do you want to go for a Jack or queen of diamonds?

Duncan Stevens:

Queen of diamonds.

Duncan Stevens:

Now there is one card face down inside of here.

Duncan Stevens:

I don't want to do any magic, kind of, not that absolutely

Duncan Stevens:

showing the queen of diamonds.

Duncan Stevens:

You can change if you want

Johnny:

I never got the,

Duncan Stevens:

so slow.

Duncan Stevens:

So fare queen of diamonds.

Duncan Stevens:

If I take these out,

Duncan Stevens:

try and do it as slow as possible,

Duncan Stevens:

you're going to see one card just that.

Johnny:

yeah.

Johnny:

And it's not the Jack,

Duncan Stevens:

It's not the jacket.

Duncan Stevens:

Exactly.

Duncan Stevens:

That cause you can stay it by that code again.

Duncan Stevens:

Johnny say out

Johnny:

queen of diamonds.

Duncan Stevens:

No.

Johnny:

And there she is.

Duncan Stevens:

So that's one in 52.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, 52.

Duncan Stevens:

What do I need you to do is think of an object.

Duncan Stevens:

Just any, any object?

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

Uh, change your mind.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

And now what I want you to do is really delve into the back of your mind and bring

Duncan Stevens:

whatever that really weird quirky, unusual object is to the front of your mind.

Johnny:

Um,

Duncan Stevens:

And once you've got that in mind, really make

Duncan Stevens:

your bright really make it vivid, really, really focus on that.

Johnny:

Okay.

Duncan Stevens:

Is there any just yes or no?

Duncan Stevens:

Is there any way I can know what this object is,

Johnny:

Uh, no,

Duncan Stevens:

but it's no way there is no way

Johnny:

there was not,

Duncan Stevens:

so, what's your favorite color?

Johnny:

uh, my favorite color is brown.

Duncan Stevens:

Brown.

Duncan Stevens:

Okay.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm going to try and go for this.

Duncan Stevens:

I need to ask a few questions.

Duncan Stevens:

What should have, uh, if you could do anything in your

Duncan Stevens:

world, what would be your dream

Duncan Stevens:

job?

Johnny:

Oh boy, a full-time podcast, or I guess

Duncan Stevens:

I'll say, and you I'm indoors or outdoors.

Johnny:

that's mostly an indoors thing.

Johnny:

So in those.

Duncan Stevens:

Okay.

Duncan Stevens:

I mean in life, in general doors or

Johnny:

Oh, in general.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

I'm I'm, I'm

Johnny:

kind of in doozy, I guess.

Duncan Stevens:

Okay.

Duncan Stevens:

Okay.

Duncan Stevens:

I'll say maybe this I've drawn a little picture of something you're thinking of.

Duncan Stevens:

Maybe that you've just changed your mind a few times, and then you.

Duncan Stevens:

What was the, uh, what was the object you were simply thinking of?

Duncan Stevens:

Uh, tuba, just to tuba,

Duncan Stevens:

if you could,

Johnny:

playing a cheaper,

Duncan Stevens:

uh, Fox plainer, tuber.

Duncan Stevens:

Okay.

Duncan Stevens:

If you could make this Fox any color in the world, what color would you give it?

Duncan Stevens:

You can just say

Duncan Stevens:

so a pink Fox playing a

Duncan Stevens:

tuba,

Johnny:

yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

not the best pitcher in the world.

Duncan Stevens:

I put that.

Johnny:

That's crazy.

Johnny:

That is crazy.

Duncan Stevens:

Sorry.

Johnny:

that, that is what you wrote.

Johnny:

Well, that's amazing.

Duncan Stevens:

So, yeah, so I sometimes use my, uh, so this involves a lot

Duncan Stevens:

of different kind of, uh, Abilities.

Duncan Stevens:

It's

Duncan Stevens:

not just the influence is not just persuasion, but there is that underlying

Duncan Stevens:

influence persuasion, to it as well.

Duncan Stevens:

So yeah, just a couple of little, a couple of little demonstrations.

Johnny:

that honestly, that's amazing, but that, does that really speak

Johnny:

to our predictability or does that speak to predictability and a few

Johnny:

other things added in.

Duncan Stevens:

So, so those, those as an example are the way you were thinking

Duncan Stevens:

of a pink Fox, that's slightly different.

Duncan Stevens:

The plane cars, you've got one in 52 chance, so.

Duncan Stevens:

When ladies are asked to think of a playing card, they think

Duncan Stevens:

five of the queen of hearts.

Duncan Stevens:

So the seven of hearts guys naturally go for the ACE of spades.

Duncan Stevens:

So based on those three things if, if you know the.

Duncan Stevens:

That's what people think of.

Duncan Stevens:

You'll probably going to go to the opposite end of the spectrum.

Duncan Stevens:

So you still went with a queen, which is psychologically one of the most

Duncan Stevens:

popular cards, but diamonds, there's rare that guys go for the heart.

Duncan Stevens:

Now I'm just doing this as an example, guys who generally want

Duncan Stevens:

to be the alpha male of the group,

Duncan Stevens:

they'll probably go for the ace of spades, because they think I'll never

Duncan Stevens:

get it, but by default, one of the most predictable things about people is the

Duncan Stevens:

fact they believe they're unpredictable.

Duncan Stevens:

It makes it easier for me.

Duncan Stevens:

It's the same as if I was to ask an alpha male of the group to do any object,

Duncan Stevens:

they won't be as creative as they want.

Duncan Stevens:

They're probably only going to draw one of two things and they probably both

Duncan Stevens:

can't be mentioned on this show here, or they think they're being funny.

Duncan Stevens:

And then they reinforced.

Duncan Stevens:

By showing their friends and laughing.

Duncan Stevens:

Now that's not an ex that's not being a hundred percent influencing them.

Duncan Stevens:

The influence in is already there because they've kind of influenced themselves.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

So there is something as well called self influence, but that's a different topic,

Duncan Stevens:

but yeah, so some of the techniques you can use of course, on stage to influence.

Duncan Stevens:

And I do as part of my influence experience show

Johnny:

Do you think that, that I mean that, those are amazing

Johnny:

demonstrations and thank you for those.

Johnny:

Do you think that there is a benefit to people, at least the tempting

Johnny:

to try and figure out people's personality model based on the

Johnny:

five factors that you present?

Duncan Stevens:

I think, maybe figure out is, a bit too try-hard I understand

Duncan Stevens:

what you mean by the word figure out, but if you were to spend some quality

Duncan Stevens:

time with somebody as, as it comes back to before with likability, if you

Duncan Stevens:

just want to spend some quality time with somebody, those personalities

Duncan Stevens:

will essentially come to the fore.

Duncan Stevens:

You know, those individual traits will come to them before, but that five

Duncan Stevens:

personality model with using the data from set top boxes or the data from

Duncan Stevens:

our viewing on Facebook, our data from our searches to me, that's that's fact,

Duncan Stevens:

but there's other elements still in there that, oh, you may have actually

Duncan Stevens:

hovered over that picture a bit too.

Duncan Stevens:

The kettle was boiling, or you may have ended up watching that TV show

Duncan Stevens:

because there was nothing else on.

Duncan Stevens:

So it's not a hundred percent.

Duncan Stevens:

Whereas if you get to know somebody, you kind of don't have to ask them.

Duncan Stevens:

You kind of get to know and you, but I do think in terms of influence

Duncan Stevens:

and persuasion, absolutely.

Duncan Stevens:

Because again, it comes down to learning.

Duncan Stevens:

What somebody whose needs are because when you talk listening, of

Duncan Stevens:

course, active, listening, reactive listening, whatever you want to

Duncan Stevens:

call it is I think a fundamental part of influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

And generally, if you ask somebody what they need, they tell you what they want.

Duncan Stevens:

They don't tell you what they need, but understanding what they

Duncan Stevens:

need is part of their personality.

Duncan Stevens:

And when you understand their needs, that's when you can really help them.

Duncan Stevens:

And that's when I suppose influence you can influence them.

Duncan Stevens:

So.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, it's those needs, which are the underlying call off of their personality,

Duncan Stevens:

which is in some way associated with their five-point personality, I would say so.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Johnny:

So, so now I'm going to, I'm going to be a bit, a little bit mean perhaps,

Johnny:

and ask you for a very short answer to.

Johnny:

Possibly isn't a short question.

Johnny:

but something like newer linguistic programming and

Johnny:

actually you've come across that UBB even utilize elements of it.

Johnny:

But what are your thoughts around something like NLP Is it valuable

Johnny:

for people to learn or is it a lot of hokum or what do you think.

Duncan Stevens:

NLP is so diverse.

Duncan Stevens:

I think it is absolutely credible.

Duncan Stevens:

I think you can certainly take individual parts of NLP and the strongest example,

Duncan Stevens:

element of NLP, which I believe in is.

Duncan Stevens:

The, the, the power of belief and just a two minute, two second soundbite is

Duncan Stevens:

of course with the four minute mile, as we all know, was run by Roger Bannister.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think in that year, when he broke the, was it the four minute mile?

Duncan Stevens:

I believe you broke the form four minute mile.

Duncan Stevens:

But anyway, he, that he broke the he'd never been beaten that same

Duncan Stevens:

year, three other people beat it.

Duncan Stevens:

Now it's become the industry standard simply

Duncan Stevens:

because of belief.

Duncan Stevens:

Now that's LP.

Duncan Stevens:

So based on that, I think it's definitely worth it.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm not saying everybody could start winning the mile with those

Duncan Stevens:

kinds of speed just based on belief, but I think you get what I mean.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

no, I do.

Johnny:

I probably have similar, similar opinions.

Johnny:

Really.

Johnny:

Some of it is very useful.

Johnny:

Some of it is a complete pseudo science and guff and it's hard and

Johnny:

it's sometimes hard to discern.

Johnny:

What's what, so I think we all have to be perhaps a little more skeptical when

Johnny:

we're listening to people then than we are.

Johnny:

And that ties in with some of the stuff you talk about in your book about

Johnny:

cognitive biases and heuristics are a little bit of skepticism is very healthy.

Johnny:

sometimes test stuff out, see what works, see what you like.

Johnny:

See, see what's.

Johnny:

And don't just blindly believe what people tell you.

Johnny:

this is all super important stuff that we talked a lot about some of

Johnny:

the content of your book for People who want to find out more about it.

Johnny:

What's that what, what's the best way for

Johnny:

them to check it out?

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, Amazon go on Amazon effective influence, uh, 65 ways

Duncan Stevens:

to become more influent, influential.

Duncan Stevens:

Um, you can check out my book there.

Duncan Stevens:

Um, lots of different experiments.

Duncan Stevens:

Uh, some of the, we conducted some that I've gathered from around the world.

Duncan Stevens:

Um, but yeah, if you wanted to connect with me, I'm on LinkedIn

Duncan Stevens:

Duncan Stevens, or you could find me on my website, Duncan stevens.com

Johnny:

And it'll say spending almost you to come and talk

Johnny:

about these topics as well.

Johnny:

LinkedIn would probably be the best place for them to go home PT.

Johnny:

Right?

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, well don't can stevens.com down there.

Duncan Stevens:

You watch some shows.

Duncan Stevens:

You can maybe watch some more clips that inference.

Johnny:

Great.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

I think people would probably find the book.

Johnny:

If they're interested in this show, they're certainly kind of fun,

Johnny:

a lot of interest in your book.

Johnny:

And particularly that you don't just cite experiments.

Johnny:

You really talk about some of the application and what we can take

Johnny:

away from that, which is something I haven't seen in many books.

Johnny:

And I've often said, When I see people, I'm not going to name names, but some

Johnny:

of these people who've written influence and persuasion books that are essentially

Johnny:

just rehashes of Cialdini or other people, that they don't really add anything

Johnny:

to the conversation, or they at least give clarity or application and you do.

Johnny:

And, uh, and so, so that was very helpful.

Johnny:

That's something that's really worth people checking out.

Johnny:

In addition to your book, are there any other books that you think people maybe

Johnny:

who turned into this show, or maybe

Johnny:

just in general?

Johnny:

It should definitely be like books that maybe have

Johnny:

had an impact.

Duncan Stevens:

I think you could probably take, two books, which

Duncan Stevens:

are a little bit off kilter.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm not going to say Cialdini cause I think he gets plugged far too much.

Johnny:

He doesn't, he doesn't need the help, perhaps.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

Um, I'd probably say I forget his name.

Duncan Stevens:

I'd say ego is the enemy is a, is a really good

Johnny:

This is Ryan Holiday.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

absolutely very good.

Duncan Stevens:

If you read

Johnny:

Yes.

Duncan Stevens:

it's a good book.

Duncan Stevens:

Yes.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think that's important because Ego is the Enemy.

Duncan Stevens:

Just by reading the book,

Duncan Stevens:

I'd love.

Duncan Stevens:

To say I've distanced myself from my ego.

Duncan Stevens:

I haven't, we've all got an ego, but it's how you can diminish that ego and

Duncan Stevens:

how you can essentially become that authentic, empathetic likable person,

Duncan Stevens:

which isn't focused on getting the next million pound or getting this

Duncan Stevens:

or getting that me, me, me, me, me.

Duncan Stevens:

I think if you can distance yourself from the ego, then influence and persuasion

Duncan Stevens:

becomes very much more natural behavior characteristic and it no longer becomes

Duncan Stevens:

I'm going to influence this person.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm just going to be myself.

Duncan Stevens:

And

Duncan Stevens:

yeah, and I think those people are the most likable, as you said, are the most

Duncan Stevens:

successful with influence and persuasion.

Johnny:

Well, if character is influence than the virtues of stoicism, Ryan Holiday

Johnny:

talks about a very powerful form of that.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

So absolutely.

Duncan Stevens:

You said that and I'd probably say pick up a book from Sadhguru

Duncan Stevens:

so good as a spiritual guru.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm not your typical guru.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, again, similar kind of mindset and.

Duncan Stevens:

It doesn't necessarily talk about influence persuasion, but I don't think, I

Duncan Stevens:

think as you correctly cited books, which aren't anything to do with influence,

Duncan Stevens:

persuasion, charisma and other books.

Duncan Stevens:

I think that sometimes is the important element for any form of creative

Duncan Stevens:

pursuit, any form of business.

Duncan Stevens:

Don't just focus on that one area that you're focused on board in your reading

Duncan Stevens:

rage board, in your watching range, and you become much more well rounded

Duncan Stevens:

because you know, if you, if you've read charisma and I've read charisma,

Duncan Stevens:

we're going to connect more rather than

Duncan Stevens:

you've read Cialdini and I've not read Cialdini.

Duncan Stevens:

You get the point,

Duncan Stevens:

you got the point, we're going to connect more than therefore

Duncan Stevens:

we're going to influence.

Duncan Stevens:

We're going to have a better relationship where you're going to get something

Duncan Stevens:

which is going to help your life.

Duncan Stevens:

I'm going to get something which is going to help my life and together

Duncan Stevens:

we'll grow our businesses or grow our buys better and more beautiful.

Duncan Stevens:

I would

Johnny:

yeah,

Johnny:

but before we start wrapping things up, you mentioned, I think

Johnny:

an influence association earlier.

Johnny:

Is that right?

Johnny:

Well, what, can you tell us a little bit about that

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

So, uh, I set it up number of years ago now.

Duncan Stevens:

It's we help, we started off by helping

Duncan Stevens:

people, uh, with small, small businesses grow their businesses based on influence

Duncan Stevens:

and persuasion, ideas and concepts.

Duncan Stevens:

Some.

Duncan Stevens:

I suppose more basic ideas.

Duncan Stevens:

Let's say, for example, colors, even just the color of having orange on

Duncan Stevens:

your website for thousands of studies, oranges is a more influential color

Duncan Stevens:

than any other color to increase your click through rate on your web.

Duncan Stevens:

Using the color orange and just little ideas like that, this thing grew.

Duncan Stevens:

And then we got asked by other people to give keynote presentations

Duncan Stevens:

on influence and persuasion.

Duncan Stevens:

And then we started moving into running a few studies, like an undercover influence,

Duncan Stevens:

some suasion, see how people as managers were influencing their staff, what they

Duncan Stevens:

could tighten up on things like that.

Duncan Stevens:

So yeah, we offer a range of, I suppose, quirky, quirky approaches to businesses,

Duncan Stevens:

which they wouldn't normally approach.

Duncan Stevens:

But yeah, I think we love we love helping less established businesses,

Duncan Stevens:

just as much as established businesses grow their businesses.

Duncan Stevens:

Through influence and persuasion strategies and techniques like that.

Duncan Stevens:

And like I said, it's not just, it's not just the bigger picture thing.

Duncan Stevens:

It is more granular stuff.

Duncan Stevens:

Like how best to construct a website, how best to create a business card,

Duncan Stevens:

how best to do these kinds of things.

Duncan Stevens:

But there's also the bigger things which feed into the book.

Duncan Stevens:

Like I wonder, could we experiment.

Johnny:

Yeah.

Johnny:

Perfect.

Johnny:

So if people want to find out a bit more about the inference

Johnny:

association, is that on your website or is there somewhere else?

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, it just kind of inference association.com and say hello.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah.

Duncan Stevens:

Amazing.

Duncan Stevens:

Thank you.

Johnny:

Now, this may be a hard question to answer for you because you.

Johnny:

might be struggling to choose between them better.

Johnny:

What is your influence and persuasion superpower.

Duncan Stevens:

My influence and persuasion superpower is authenticity.

Duncan Stevens:

I, I think if you were to meet me on the street in a, in a pub, in a, in a

Duncan Stevens:

restaurant, wherever I'd be the same, I'm the same person all the time.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think having an authentic approach in your life is important because we're

Duncan Stevens:

so often presenting the best versions of ourselves, whether it's on Instagram,

Duncan Stevens:

whether it's here, there, and everywhere.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think having an authentic.

Duncan Stevens:

Uh, approach to life.

Duncan Stevens:

Not only is it positive to people, but it also shares your vulnerabilities as well.

Duncan Stevens:

And I think we all have vulnerabilities and where we all have vulnerabilities.

Duncan Stevens:

Again, we can connect with those vulnerabilities, not just because we want

Duncan Stevens:

to connect with somebody with vulnerable.

Duncan Stevens:

Fundability.

Duncan Stevens:

I think we just like to connect with people who are authentic.

Duncan Stevens:

Oh, he's an authentic guy.

Duncan Stevens:

He's a nice guy.

Duncan Stevens:

I rarely get on with him.

Duncan Stevens:

He's a nice guy.

Duncan Stevens:

You know, that, that, that I believe is such an important thing.

Duncan Stevens:

And unfortunately, in the world, which has become increasingly

Duncan Stevens:

unauthentic because of social media,

Duncan Stevens:

and it's easy to say that I think it's the easiest way to move away from manipulation

Duncan Stevens:

to move away from premeditated influences the easiest way to.

Duncan Stevens:

Yeah, for beautiful relationships with people just by being yourself, being

Duncan Stevens:

authentic and where authentic is, you know, what is the ego or release you

Duncan Stevens:

should, you can be the observer and with the ego and what, isn't the ego?

Duncan Stevens:

I sound like a spiritual guru here.

Johnny:

No, I do.

Johnny:

You know what I'm, I'm, I'm one of the least spiritual people.

Johnny:

You could be probably in many ways.

Johnny:

Uh, but I, I agree with you.

Johnny:

Perfection or perfectionism that we see on a lot, probably in the Instagram

Johnny:

lifestyle or perhaps on Tik talking a lot, the people who seem to have it all

Johnny:

together and they look fantastic and they seem to have these glorious lifestyles.

Johnny:

It's not real.

Johnny:

It's like you, it's only one small segment or it's an illusion or it's manipulated,

Johnny:

or it's certain filters or whatever.

Johnny:

You are

Johnny:

not seeing the real picture.

Johnny:

Whereas people who.

Johnny:

We share at least maybe not all the dirty laundry, but some of their imperfections.

Johnny:

That's a lot more real.

Johnny:

It's a lot more relatable.

Johnny:

And perhaps we should give a bit more attention and

Johnny:

focus to those people.

Duncan Stevens:

And there in lies, a very funny little finish

Duncan Stevens:

to this because those people are.

Duncan Stevens:

Displaying this unreal life, our code influences, but that's not that

Duncan Stevens:

doesn't influence on a different level.

Duncan Stevens:

It's kind of the, world's going wacky.

Johnny:

Yeah, I guess that's, I guess that really is the essence of why influences

Johnny:

has become such a an unlikeable term and why people may prevail against it.

Johnny:

If there was one thing above everything else that you most

Johnny:

hope people will take away.

Johnny:

And remember from our conversation, what do you hope that would be.

Duncan Stevens:

How, how, can you help people?

Duncan Stevens:

How can you help people?

Duncan Stevens:

England, NATO the Us, they're helping Ukrainian people at the moment.

Duncan Stevens:

They're not wanting to get anything out of it and they're just helping, well,

Duncan Stevens:

they are wanting not to go to a bigger war, but this kind of times, this is time.

Duncan Stevens:

Now this what time you've recorded this.

Duncan Stevens:

But yeah, they, they, they, they wanting to help.

Duncan Stevens:

And if you take that same idea from the seventies where I think it

Duncan Stevens:

was Ethiopia helped Mexico or the other way round when they, there

Duncan Stevens:

was, they had a massive earthquake, Ethiopia donated 5,000 dollars,

Duncan Stevens:

which they couldn't really afford.

Duncan Stevens:

They gave it to Mexico to help with the relief aid.

Duncan Stevens:

That was, that was all.

Duncan Stevens:

And then a few years later when they had famine and starvation, Mexico

Duncan Stevens:

reciprocated that and gave back to.

Duncan Stevens:

So I believe help helping others around you is the most important thing.

Duncan Stevens:

And again, it's not directly help equals influence, but it absolutely

Duncan Stevens:

does, but in a non manipulative way.

Duncan Stevens:

So how, how can you how can you help other people?

Johnny:

I like that.

Johnny:

That's a great note to finish on Duncan Stevens.

Johnny:

Thank you so much for coming and being a guest on Speaking Influence.

Duncan Stevens:

Thanks so much for having me, it's been good

Johnny:

Well, thanks to you also for tuning in.

Johnny:

I hope you have enjoyed the show and found some things that you can take

Johnny:

away and put into practice from that.

Johnny:

And maybe it's even inspired your desire to learn some of the tools

Johnny:

of the trade of the mentalist.

Johnny:

Next time on the show.

Johnny:

I'm going to be speaking with Daniel Tolson and Daniel has one of the

Johnny:

most amazing voices that I've ever encountered in the world of podcasting.

Johnny:

So you're going to meet may want to tune in just for his voice alone.

Johnny:

We also share something quite amazing and common, which I've never come across in

Johnny:

the personal and professional development world, before if you want the answer to

Johnny:

this mystery, then you need to make sure that you are tuned into this channel.

Johnny:

Subscribe to the show and join me next week, because Daniel is quite

Johnny:

an amazing figure in the world of personal development and has done some

Johnny:

incredible things against the odds.

Johnny:

You'll hear and talk about some of the challenges that he's had in

Johnny:

his own life and business, and the failures that are coming on the way.

Johnny:

And for many people having faced where he's faced, they'll give

Johnny:

up, but he hasn't done that.

Johnny:

And he's gone on to become an internationally renowned speaker

Johnny:

and podcaster and content creator.

Johnny:

And really a super good guy as well.

Johnny:

I had a fantastic time chatting to him.

Johnny:

I can't wait for you to hear it too.

Johnny:

And if you happen to have your device in your hand right now, as you're

Johnny:

listening to this, please think about leaving us a star rating, if you're

Johnny:

on Spotify it's really easy to do.

Johnny:

So as long as you've listened to 30 seconds of the show, Which

Johnny:

you already have, then just click the three dots by the side of the

Johnny:

show and you can leave a rating.

Johnny:

And also, if you're on Apple Podcasts, it's super easy to

Johnny:

leave a review for the show.

Johnny:

It doesn't necessarily help with such ability, but it does give

Johnny:

me great feedback, lets me know whether I'm doing a good job or not.

Johnny:

And also lets other people know whether the show is worth tuning into of course

Johnny:

the best thing you could do if you want to support the show is to share

Johnny:

it out with your friends and network.

Johnny:

If you know, one person who could benefit from any of the content

Johnny:

in these shows, then please do share the podcast with them.

Johnny:

Maybe you know, more than one or you might even want to share

Johnny:

it with your whole network.

Johnny:

If you do that, you will have my lifelong gratitude

Johnny:

And I'll look forward to bringing you plenty more episodes

Johnny:

like this one in the future.

Johnny:

For now, wherever you're going, whatever you're doing, have an amazing week.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence
The podcast that helps professional communicators learn the skills that increase influence, impact and authority.

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About your host

Profile picture for John Ball

John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.

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