Episode 228

How to Be Funny on Purpose: Joel Morris on the Craft of Comedy

Unlocking the Secrets of Comedy with Joel Morris

Summary

In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball delves into the intricacies of comedy with Joel Morris, the prolific comedy writer behind beloved characters like Paddington Bear and Philomena Cunk.

Joel discusses his book, 'Be Funny or Die,' shedding light on the rhythm of humour, the similarities between jokes and music, and the universal nature of comedy. They explore how jokes are constructed, the importance of setup and timing, and the challenges of creating comedy in today's diverse media landscape.

Whether you're a professional speaker or simply someone who loves a good laugh, this episode offers invaluable insights into the craft of comedy.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Joel Morris and His Comedy Craft

01:20 Discussing 'Be Funny or Die'

01:44 The Mechanics and Philosophy of Comedy

02:54 Comedy as a Universal Language

06:16 The Journey of a Comedy Writer

11:53 The Role of Persona in Comedy

17:16 Writing Process and Inspirations

23:02 Mocking Doc and Shakespeare

23:36 Philomena Cunk's Interviewing Skills

23:40 Favourite Person to Write For

25:33 Comedy at the BBC

32:14 The Craft of Comedy Writing

36:03 Advice for Adding Humour

40:44 Upcoming Projects and Final Thoughts

Visit presentinfluence.com/quiz to take the Speaker Radiance Quiz and discover your Charisma Quotient.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Transcript
John:

What do Paddington Bear, Philomena Cunk and Mitchell and Webb have in common?

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Today's guest, that's what Joel Morris

is, the mind behind, some of the most

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beloved and brilliantly written comedy

on screen, but he's also the author of

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Be Funny or Die, possibly the best book

ever written about the craft of comedy,

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that doesn't suck all the joy out of it.

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And in this episode, we dive into what

makes things funny and what doesn't.

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The rhythm of humor, why jokes are

like music, and why being funny might

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just be the most human thing of all.

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Whether you're a professional speaker,

a casual storyteller, or someone

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who laughs awkwardly at funerals,

you're going to love this one.

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Welcome to Present Influence

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the show for expert speakers, coaches

and leaders who want to master

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the communication game And develop

their ethical influence skills.

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My name's John Ball, keynote

and presentation coach,

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influence Expert, and your

guide on this journey to mastery

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level communication skills.

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I feel very honored and privileged today

to be able to welcome my guest, who is,

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behind some of my favorite comedy on

TV welcome to the show, Joel Morris.

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Joel Morris: Hello.

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Lovely to be here.

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Thanks

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John: I think after reading your

book I hadn't realized how much TV

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comedy you were actually behind that I

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have watched and thoroughly

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enjoyed.

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You are a prolific creator of

comedy and it's great to see that.

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And one of the things we mainly want to

talk to you today about was your book.

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I, Hopefully we get to a few

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other things as well, but your

book, that came out a while

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back called Be Funny Or Die

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Joel Morris: I'm gonna hold it up there.

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Look, look, look,

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John: Hey, there it is.

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And I have thoroughly

enjoyed the audiobook version

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of that, so I've gotten very used to

hearing your voice from that, but I do

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have a preference for audiobooks as well.

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I wonder for you, what was

the intention behind the book?

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Like who did you write it

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Joel Morris: Well, it was inspired by

the usual rule you'd want to read it.

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So I wanted to read a book like this.

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When I was a kid, I read some books

that were a bit like this, but there

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weren't any books that explained, jokes.

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Not necessarily in a mechanical way or

comedy, particularly in a mechanical

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way, how to do it, but why we do it

and what we are doing when we do it.

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I was really surprised.

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There are loads of books on music

and music's very inexplicable.

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People would say, you can't explain why

Beethoven or The Beatles are beautiful.

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But it doesn't stop there being

Loads of books on exactly that.

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but weirdly, there wasn't

anything on comedy.

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There was stuff about the history

of comedy or about comedians, but

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there wasn't anything about it.

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And because I'm a musician as well, that

music and comedy were almost identical.

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you are trying to get a visceral

reaction from people dancing, smiling,

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to bypass their resistant brain, and

get a nice reaction from a social group.

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They're very similar.

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I thought I'll write a book about it,

talk to some clever people, find out how

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it worked, but to try and do something

useful for people who work in comedy.

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But I'm very aware it's a very small

village, the Comedy Village, even

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internationally, there aren't many of us.

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So I want to do something that would

appeal to people who are consumers

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of comedy and users of comedy.

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Whether it's telling a joke to a friend

at the pub, doing a best man speech

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at a wedding, a presentation at work,

an email, a social media posting.

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You can get it wrong very easily, and

my job is to try not to get it wrong

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professionally, because I don't get paid.

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And I thought, that means I've

probably put a lot of guardrails

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up while I've been working to make

sure that I don't want to room go.

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This is the funniest joke in

the world and no one laugh.

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Maybe that's a useful

skill to share around.

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to investigate it.

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But I found out loads

while researching it.

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I thought I was quite clever at

the beginning, but I found out how

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little I knew by the time I finished.

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John: for me it was a very

interesting book I have read.

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I think I've only come across one.

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Book, or, I mean, it's kind of

a course really from Audible.

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Audible have these great and there's

one called, Take My Course Please.

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Which is all about theory of comedy,

and I had never really found anything

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that was properly about theory of

comedy before, but your book is.

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Very much about possibly a

bit more accessible.

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I learned a lot from

listening to it as well.

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and I remember you compare comedy to

music a bit and, say that there are

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similarities with rhythm and beats you

have to hit which I definitely agree with.

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I think anyone could learn

a musical instrument.

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Maybe not always well, but

anyone could learn to play music.

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Do you think anyone can do comedy

or other people who are just,

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they're never really gonna get it?

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Joel Morris: I reckon.

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See, that's a very good thing.

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I've never thought about that.

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I think it's true of both.

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I was officially a musician.

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I've had records out, I've written songs.

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but my brother is the musical

one in my family and always

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was when I was growing up.

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My parents, when he's the musical

one, you are the arty writing

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one, and when I was about 16, I.

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bought myself a guitar

and went bloody mindedly.

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I will.

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And here we are many decades later and

my brother is still the musical one.

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He's still more naturally

talented, more naturally gifted.

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has a better ear for it than I have.

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but I can play.

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And I think that's it.

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I think it's a bit like football

or, or anything, but, or tennis.

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You might get good

enough to enjoy doing it.

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You might not be a world champion.

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And I think that the thing with good

comedy you can learn what not to do.

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And I think we do the same with music.

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If you've got a guitar out at a party and

everyone said, go away, this is terrible.

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You might stop, a good

person would stop doing it.

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similarly, if you told jokes and

they die, you might stop doing it.

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On the other hand, you might

try and learn to get better.

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So I think failing at it, you fail and

get better, but also if you're good at

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it, you get encouraged to do it again.

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So it's those 10,000 hours.

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I mean, all I know is that I've

written more jokes in my life

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than I've done anything else.

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And I started doing that

probably when I was about five.

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So I've just got more hours under my

belt, which means that I probably avoid

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pitfalls better than others, when you

become a professional at anything, if

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you've got a better sense of how a car

works, you are more mechanically minded,

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you can become a garage mechanic and

you'll be better at it than I am.

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There are people who are better at putting

up shelves than me, things like that.

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But I think there's a certain

amount of natural gift, but also

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there are things you can learn and

mistakes you can learn not to make.

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John: do you think that maybe we've

covered, I think we all want to be

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funnier probably, and certainly for

professional speakers and communicators,

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it's a great skill to be able to

put into your presentations and keep

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people more engaged and can really

have a lot more impact with it.

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But do you think there's a thing

of, I see this way, like, people

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just accept that musical instruments

take a long time to learn, whereas

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something like comedy, people tend to

think you either are or you aren't,

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and that it's not something

you learn over time.

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Joel Morris: Well, part of this is

to do with the process by which you

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become a professional comedy writer.

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You start out doing what everyone does.

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You make your brother or sister or your

mom or dad or your classmates laugh.

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I talk about the moment that divides

us from the tiny percentage of

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DNA that divides from bananas.

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The tiny differences.

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Can you share that joke with the class is

the point at which you become a comedian.

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if you can't share the joke with the

class, it doesn't mean you're not funny.

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It means that joke is just designed

for you and your very close tribe.

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everyone can make their very close tribe.

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their sibling or their partner

laugh, or their best friend laugh.

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But people always say that.

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They go, oh, you want to get

my mate so and so on the telly?

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He's so funny.

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And you go, but is he funny

to people who don't know him?

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And that question is difference

between being able to be a comedian.

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And I think most people are funny.

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I mean, the thing I always laugh

about is they always say the

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Germans have no sense of humor.

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And you go, well, we have

a German royal family.

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I think the reason we're so rude

about them in England is that sense

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of humor is almost identical to ours.

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they paid to make extra Monty Python.

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They're very similar to us.

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My brother lives in Germany.

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And I would say the sense of humor

marginally different but not as vastly

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different as it is from county to county.

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In the UK we have this insistence

that other people aren't funny.

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But all you're saying there is that

their tribe has a different thing

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that makes them laugh than you do.

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But we know that by listening to jokes

in different cultures and jokes about

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different cultures, you can always share.

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I don't think there are people who

are and aren't funny or there are

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some people who aren't funny at all.

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They're very dry.

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But sometimes those

people are hugely funny.

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I think that the key to it with learning

it is learning that you are sharing.

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The best jokes.

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This is the thing I talk

about in the book a lot.

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Sometimes the best jokes are an in joke.

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A joke that is only for you and a

friend who gets all the references,

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but you can't share those jokes.

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the trick is, I

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John: you say that, the best joke is

one told between two siblings at a

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Joel Morris: yeah, it's got

absolutely everything in it.

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In fact, the book came off me saying

that to someone and they went justify it.

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And I went, oh, hang on.

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So I thought, there's a book in this.

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but it was a thing I'd always

said, I've got two siblings.

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We used to make each other laugh and

we were laughing at a family funeral.

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And I thought, this is a very special joke

'cause I can't share it with anyone apart

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from people I'm sharing it with right now.

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If I said it out loud, if I

stood up, I'd misread the room.

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It'd be the wrong mood.

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The only room that it works in is the

tiny space between two siblings heads

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whispered at the back of a, and it's the

same as telling a joke in the back of

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a car, or your boss is in the front or

telling a joke at the back of the class.

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And the teacher's very strict.

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it's about sharing, you're sharing a

token of exchange, as a tribal token of

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exchange and there's an intimacy to it.

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And I think that's where professional

comedy is a matter of turning up on

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the doorstep of the BBC television

center or something like I did

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when I was a kid and going, I bet

you I can make you laugh as well.

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And then they go prove it.

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And you go, right.

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Oh, hang on.

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All my jokes are about

my teachers at school.

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This is no use, right?

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I've gotta think of something

that you'll get as well.

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And you start looking for common ground

and then you start making them laugh about

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what's in the fruit bowl or whatever.

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But you are constantly

looking for common ground.

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It's an incredibly primal form of

communication that's to do with sharing.

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And the people who say, can

you learn to be a comedian?

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No, I think you can just learn to share.

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And your first job as a pro comedian

is you are writing for other people.

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Unless you are a standup or

you're presenting yourself.

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My job, I've never been a performer, so

the first thing I've always had to do is

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listen, understand who I'm writing for.

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I did a job.

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This year for a very, very good standup.

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She's brilliant.

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And I was given a tiny amount of time

to do it 'cause I had very little money.

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And I said, What I'm gonna have to

do is I'll do the day's work, editing

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the script, but I'm gonna have to

take her for a coffee or a beer the

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night before to get to know her.

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'cause I know her as a performer,

but I don't know her because I took

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her and her partner out for a drink.

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And we got that.

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It was taxable expenses, it's fine.

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But I didn't get paid for that.

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it was just me listening and

going, okay, where are you from?

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What's your childhood?

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what's your age group?

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what toys do you find funny?

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Are you a Transformers kid or

are you an evil can evil kid?

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and that meant that I could join her

tribe and then the next morning hit

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the ground running with the script,

edit and be speaking her language.

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But the first thing

you're doing is listening.

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John: Cool.

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I'm have to run some of my

open mic material by you, Joel,

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Joel Morris: I need to

know everything about you.

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I need to know where you're from.

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I'll do some Valencia material.

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I know where you live.

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This is all I've got.

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it's as same as it does when you turn

up at a wedding or a conference or

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something, you are listening to people

hopefully to find out where they're from.

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And when you pitch a joke in,

the reason sometimes they go

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dead is you weren't listening.

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you pitch a joking about fox hunting

and that person was an animal

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rights activist or something.

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the first thing you should do is listen.

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And it's what you cringe

about when you get it wrong.

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I get it wrong all the time.

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you go in enthusiastically thinking

you are amongst your friends

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and suddenly go, oh, hang on.

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Everyone here went to public

school and I'm doing some kill

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the rich material that won't work.

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John: Right.

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Yeah.

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I was, doing open mic last week

and one of the guys, I thought he

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had some great jokes, but they were

all kind of about philosophy and

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philosophers, and like ancient

philosophers I think they're quite

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funny, but the room is not getting

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them.

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Like people do not get

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Joel Morris: the first thing you

do is I always explain this to

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people people obsess about jokes

and I talk about it in the book.

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The joke is the last thing.

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It's the setup that's important.

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you can do philosopher jokes.

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You can do ancient Greek jokes.

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Natalie Haynes is very

funny about ancient Greeks.

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If you let everyone know who you are

in the opening couple of seconds, or

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the opening couple of jokes, and you

go, I am someone who's just gonna

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do jokes about the philosophers,

The audience will be on side.

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they won't necessarily be laughing

at the jokes about the philosophers.

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They'll be laughing at you as the

kind of person you go to an open mic

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night and do jokes about philosophers.

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You're a great clown.

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That's a good, Niles and Frazier.

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you've misread the room and

pitched your references too high.

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That could be really funny.

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You could probably get laughs without

anyone knowing the gags or the references,

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because you're welcoming people in.

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It's why the first two or three minutes

of a standup routine is so important.

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John: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.

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But you say that as a performer,

as a standup, you're the

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clown, and do you feel that you have

to have your persona, your comedy

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lens very clearly displayed, like

as stated very early on for your

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Joel Morris: yeah, totally.

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when you go into a strange room

and you are listening for, you

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live a jokes, the audience are

also listening for clues from you.

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So it's why, all standups

routines start with where they're

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from, what they look like.

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A really, OTs let himself go.

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So you Oh, that's who it is.

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I remember, I, I don't

did much performance.

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That took me years to

learn that was important.

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people are prejudging you based on

what you're wearing, your accent your

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age, your gender, how you present.

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you should either confound

that expectation by being

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dazzlingly different or.

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Play jokes on what they're

expecting from you.

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I think I'm talking to Stuart Lee about

this, and Stuart is a brilliant standup,

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voted one of the best, but it took him

years to work out what the clown was,

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and he's still playing with that now.

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I think he's got the persona now

as this sort of professor of comedy

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with this disdain for his audience.

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But that's a new persona he

put on about 10, 15 years ago.

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Before that, he was a cool rock

and roll guy, and now he's this

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ridiculous middle-aged guy who

thinks you should be into the fall.

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His pretensions and his own pomposity

have become part of the joke, and if you

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don't get that joke, you'll think he's

just a puffed up pretentious asshole.

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But he's not, to the best

extent, he knows that as well.

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And then he's also prepared to

be that and then subvert it.

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But the moment he realized what his joke

was, almost like the moment he put on

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a bit of weight and the suit stopped

fitting, he found a different joke, which

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he a little bit more likes of Alexi Sayle,

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he sounded like a pompous guy in a suit.

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That's too, tight and he's too

intelligent for this rubbish.

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That's certainly the guy who

was in the nineties, but it's a

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very different version of that.

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But he said it was about finding his

clown and he'd done loads of research

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into the history of clowning and then

came out and said, this is my clown.

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Most people I know who are really, really

good have done training in that world.

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lots of very cerebral people.

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The thing I find really exciting is

the number of my friends who I think

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are the good ones, and they turn

out to have trained either as clowns

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or have worked with Ken Campbell.

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Diane Morgan.

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That's someone who's trained as a clown.

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She knows what she's doing

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John: I love Headspace, Stuart

you are, mentioning names of

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people I absolutely love to watch

and love their humor as well.

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And, that whole Mandy

series she did, was just,

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Joel Morris: one of the few things

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John: such a good

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Joel Morris: one of the few things

on television that was directed.

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You need to understand what's going on.

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Before something starts, it

was directed like a comedy.

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It looked like the young ones.

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It looked like, black books.

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Very few people look at that confidence.

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She and, Michael Spicer had produced it.

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That little team, with Ben Cordell

did a brilliant job at saying from the

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very beginning, this is gonna be like

a pantomime, it's gonna be ridiculous.

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15 minutes long.

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So we can do really dark stuff.

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We can smash a baby against a

wall, and you're just gonna laugh.

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It's gonna be Punch & Judy.

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It was so silly, and yet I think

a lot of people would've gone,

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Hey, I've got a really dark show.

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But she never did that.

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She said, this is clowning, this is silly.

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it goes into dark places, but it's

so silly that you feel so safe.

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it's just what it looks like,

how she looks at the camera.

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Within seconds at the

beginning of that, you know.

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Her character, what she's gonna be like.

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It's really very cleverly like,

and you know, she's different

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than she's, when she's being Cunk.

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It's a different character.

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That's, I love that about Diane.

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She always looks the same, but she's

completely different characters

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John: Yeah, it is very

different to the Philomena Cunk

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Joel Morris: or motherland.

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Yeah.

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she's weirdly, you think of her as someone

who maybe has got a character type,

365

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like maybe a carry on actor, but they're

all different, they're all nuanced.

366

:

You expect different

things of all of them.

367

:

it's clever than you think.

368

:

John: Yeah, definitely.

369

:

I'm fascinated that you didn't really go

through the performance side of comedy.

370

:

went straight into comedy

371

:

Joel Morris: Yeah.

372

:

John: and, what was the decision of

how you knew you wanted to do that

373

:

Joel Morris: I come from a

different generation maybe where

374

:

I respect performers too much.

375

:

I thought I wouldn't be very good.

376

:

I performed at school and I've

been in bands I'm not scared of

377

:

getting on stage but, most people

I know who are comedy performers

378

:

are absolutely brilliant at that.

379

:

I thought, oh, that's a different thing.

380

:

I'll do writing.

381

:

I really like books.

382

:

I really like writing

magazine stuff and book stuff.

383

:

I love the control you get when

I come from graphic design,

384

:

art school background as well.

385

:

So basically I loved, same as Charlie

Brooker did, he came from magazines.

386

:

I came from the same background

and loved the idea that you didn't

387

:

have to pay for cameras and things.

388

:

You could just make something, put

it up on the internet or whatever.

389

:

you had complete control.

390

:

I love the idea of, you

might have to ask permission.

391

:

I've done this before, made short film.

392

:

You have to ask permission to

use cameras and kit and crew.

393

:

But if you do visual jokes to

paper or the internet, you've got

394

:

the same kit as book publishers.

395

:

As long as you've got.

396

:

Adobe Photoshop and things.

397

:

You've got all the industry standard kit.

398

:

That's why I do podcasting

now, because I'm using the same

399

:

kit they use to make radio.

400

:

So the deal with that is, I'm not

a disadvantage by not having any

401

:

money, whereas if I wanna make a

film, I have to go and raise the

402

:

money first, which I'm rubbish at.

403

:

the writing thing was being able to

say, okay, I can put something to, as

404

:

long as I had access to a photocopier,

I used to do fanzines and things as long

405

:

as I had access to a photocopier and a

Biro, I could make comics and comedy and

406

:

things, and I still have that attitude.

407

:

I think I was talking to someone about it,

saying that there's a big slug of British

408

:

comedy that didn't come from standup.

409

:

It came from magazines and

Fanzines and then the internet

410

:

was very similar to that.

411

:

So Charlie Brooker came through that,

loads of the music writer of David

412

:

Quantick and people like that, Stuart,

Ian came through pop magazines and

413

:

into their, smash itsy kind of voice.

414

:

But yeah, I come from that background

That's the one that goes well, kaitlin

415

:

Moran, people who come for their

background, you go, oh, I like to write

416

:

and so therefore I'm not a performer.

417

:

I had friends who were really

good actors and I wasn't as

418

:

good as them, so I didn't do it.

419

:

John: I guess even the

stand-ups that they write as

420

:

well.

421

:

You have to write your material.

422

:

You have to put your act together.

423

:

do you have a particular process that

you use do you give yourself prompts

424

:

or have a brief for doing that?

425

:

what happens in your process for

writing comedy and is it something

426

:

you've developed over time?

427

:

Joel Morris: It's a bit like you know

it's impossible not to make cider.

428

:

If you leave apples for long

enough, they become alcoholic.

429

:

You have to add stuff to it to make

apple juice, to stop it becoming booze.

430

:

And I think if you've got a comic brain,

you're constantly processing stuff.

431

:

It's really annoying for your

family and your neighbors.

432

:

the input goes in, it goes through

a processor and comes out as jokes.

433

:

It's why comedians are annoying.

434

:

And I think that my process is just

someone has to ask me for it because

435

:

otherwise I just do it for nothing.

436

:

I just do it myself, which

is terrible negotiating

437

:

position for being paid for it.

438

:

but if I'm given a job to

439

:

John: probably shouldn't be

440

:

Joel Morris: yeah, it'll happen anyway.

441

:

It'll be really annoying for you.

442

:

'cause what I'll do is I'll sit, I

make stupid images of, I don't know,

443

:

tin Tim, but it's the predator.

444

:

You wake up in the morning,

it's like doing scales.

445

:

As a musician, you warm

up by making stupid stuff.

446

:

And I used to do that.

447

:

So, yeah.

448

:

my processes, you need to be asked

to do it or ask yourself to do it.

449

:

I find that you won't make anything if you

are waiting for the right moment to do it.

450

:

so you have to put yourself in

a position where you will do it.

451

:

Go and sit in the cafe or

something and say, within an

452

:

hour I have to have something.

453

:

It's how I work for Charlie Brooker

and I always have done he'll send

454

:

over orders for the day 'cause it's

a team, unless only 200 jokes about

455

:

this, by about three in the afternoon.

456

:

Loads of comedy writers work like

that and it stops you being precious.

457

:

It stops you thinking that you've got to

be in the right mood Jokes are important.

458

:

Jokes should be the disposable bit.

459

:

The hard bit in comedy is set

up and structure and character.

460

:

That's the grunt work.

461

:

Don't throw that away, but you should

be able to bolt any jokes onto that.

462

:

It's why a lot of people come through,

topical comedy because the idea

463

:

there is if you can't come in the

morning into a topical comedy show

464

:

with a bunch of prepared material,

'cause the news arrives that morning.

465

:

So the input is constantly changing

and it's why podcasts that work on that

466

:

format where maybe they're looking at

football or film releases or something,

467

:

there's a constant churn of new material

and it's how social media works.

468

:

New material in the morning.

469

:

What's the best joke you

can think of about this?

470

:

I think social media's taken a bit

of the shine off topical comedy

471

:

because everyone's now doing it.

472

:

the input should be changing,

but the process is pretty solid.

473

:

You are flipping things over, turning

them inside out, imagining what it

474

:

was like if this connected with that.

475

:

you are doing pattern finding, pattern

recognition, and that's a fun game.

476

:

That's like doing wordle in the morning.

477

:

So your brain should be doing that anyway.

478

:

It's a puzzle game.

479

:

so you wait for the orders

and then you apply to it.

480

:

my usual rule is I cannot imagine ever

doing these jokes until I start, as in

481

:

someone says, right, I need 200 jokes.

482

:

I remember doing it for,

for some show recently said,

483

:

just fill a page with jokes.

484

:

Well, I can't take, that's impossible,

but only when I sat down and looked at

485

:

the blank page, I went, oh yeah, hang on.

486

:

And then suddenly you look up

and you go, well, I've done

487

:

200 jokes, I've done 40 jokes.

488

:

it should seem impossible until you

start doing it and then you enter sort

489

:

of a fu state and you can fill it up be

prepared for half of 'em to be rubbish.

490

:

And then be prepared to,

491

:

yeah.

492

:

And then be prepared to send them

into someone who thinks the opposite,

493

:

half of rubbish and, oh, come on.

494

:

'cause it's personal.

495

:

John: I'm very much in the

amateur stakes of comedy here

496

:

myself, but I do enjoy doing.

497

:

Now I've only done a few open mics,

so I thoroughly enjoy doing it,

498

:

but my process so far seems to be

My brain waits until I'm falling

499

:

asleep to start coming up with ideas, and

500

:

Joel Morris: You need to be distracted.

501

:

John: and I

502

:

Joel Morris: you need, it's like an

hitchhiker's where you're, the only

503

:

way to fly is to throw so at the

ground and miss, I think that the

504

:

feeling of going, I can't do this.

505

:

I'll do it very often.

506

:

I'll get a very specific brief.

507

:

I've been doing some stuff for.

508

:

Greenpeace and climate's changed stuff and

it's, there's some really hard, you get

509

:

this document full of really hard science.

510

:

They think of some jokes

about this, and you go, what?

511

:

I can't do a, it's bleak and oh

well, the scientific data, stare

512

:

at it for a minute and it starts

to swim in front of your eyes.

513

:

I used to do, a thing called the

Family Examiner, which is a spoof

514

:

local newspaper, and that was done

just by staring at the newspaper

515

:

until your eyes went outta focus.

516

:

And then you'd misread it and then

you'd go, oh, there's the joke.

517

:

I like stuff Cunk jokes about is you

stare at the history book until I

518

:

start to swim in front of your face

and you see it the wrong way round.

519

:

And then you go, oh, there's a joke there.

520

:

that the audience can decode 'cause

they know what the source material was.

521

:

We wanted to do things with the Aztecs

522

:

We wanted to show the taste of the whole

world, but people don't know what the

523

:

jokes are about unless you grew up with

that stuff at school, The educational

524

:

syllabus is very different now than it was

when I was at school, but it was really

525

:

hard to try and get stuff in about history

that needed to be told like Chinese

526

:

dynasties because it's a global world now

527

:

Britain has learned about them at school.

528

:

So you do a joke and it took

so long to set the joke up

529

:

that people were drifting off.

530

:

I loved in horrible histories where the

rat would come out at the beginning,

531

:

explain what the joke was about to

kids, and then they'd do the joke.

532

:

You know?

533

:

That's lovely.

534

:

That's the equivalent of a

news story existing before you

535

:

do the caption competition.

536

:

in Have I Got News, the

audience are briefed.

537

:

One of the great things about

Topical is the audience are assumed

538

:

to know what the joke's about.

539

:

one of the things that's gone wrong

with comedy these days, is that no

540

:

one watches the news enough and no

one watches the news in any depth,

541

:

and that there are two separate news

feeds going on depending on which side

542

:

of the culture war you're on today.

543

:

So you can't assume the audience

all think the same thing, even when

544

:

they were right and left divided

or whatever, people broadly.

545

:

Accepted that we were

a war in the Falklands.

546

:

They didn't go, no, we are not.

547

:

it's really hard now, I think, and people

go, why can't we have Spiting image back?

548

:

And you went, well, people agreed

on the news back in the day.

549

:

John: They did try and bring it back.

550

:

Don't think particularly

successfully, but they did.

551

:

Joel Morris: I've been

552

:

John: interesting, but I love what.

553

:

Joel Morris: failed versions of that.

554

:

John: Philomena Cunk was a

very unexpected, but welcome

555

:

breakaway from, screen wipe.

556

:

Joel Morris: Yeah.

557

:

John: is that right?

558

:

Joel Morris: it came from, we

had some talking heads on Screen

559

:

Wipe and Diane was just great.

560

:

And then we thought we were gonna

do a sitcom with her, like Alan

561

:

Partridge first, and no one wanted it.

562

:

and then we tried to mock doc

with her and no one wanted that.

563

:

And they basically, we were

going, this isn't gonna work.

564

:

And then Shakespeare was dead for 400

years and we said, what if she goes

565

:

and does a thing about Shakespeare?

566

:

no one could agree whether she

was funny, but they could agree

567

:

that Shakespeare was dead.

568

:

it was hard to argue against making

that, and broke the barrier down.

569

:

yeah, we'd done her as a sort of

slightly longer form things in white

570

:

with like five minute sketches.

571

:

but I think she sustains, I think

we did the best part of 70 or 80

572

:

minutes this last Christmas, which

we were all convinced wouldn't work.

573

:

And actually it's silly enough

to carry for nearly, not quite

574

:

for a film, but nearly enough.

575

:

John: everything I learned about

interviewing was from Philomena Cunk.

576

:

I mean, do you have, a

577

:

favorite person to write for?

578

:

And if you do, can you say who it is?

579

:

is

580

:

Joel Morris: do you know what?

581

:

I'm in a really lovely position

as in everyone I work with now is?

582

:

really nice.

583

:

you go through a period when

you are younger, where you

584

:

are working for anybody.

585

:

most people I've worked

for are really nice.

586

:

you end up working in particular

categories of people or making a

587

:

joke once bumping into Jed Pass

588

:

We've got news in a corridor and

I said, we don't normally meet.

589

:

I work in a sideways look at the world

and we like different departments.

590

:

You do crossover.

591

:

but yeah, I, most of the people I've

work with are really, really nice.

592

:

It's very nice.

593

:

People say who's nice in

showbiz and the answer is?

594

:

most of the people I work for.

595

:

But I love writing for Charlie.

596

:

I've known Charlie since I

was in my early twenties.

597

:

I didn't write for him for ages.

598

:

We just knew each other.

599

:

We were just mates.

600

:

so that was really nice

when that came off.

601

:

Yeah.

602

:

But probably didn't

start writing together.

603

:

So yeah, probably about

15, 20 years later.

604

:

But we knew we got on, we covered

similar backgrounds, similar voices

605

:

And he'd try various other writers

to work with and they couldn't quite.

606

:

work the ventriloquist puppet.

607

:

and the year he was launching Black

Mirror, if you ever saw Charlie

608

:

doing comedy for about a year and

a bit, that was just verbatim.

609

:

We were writing for him.

610

:

He didn't have to write anything,

he could just stand up and read

611

:

it 'cause he was so knackered.

612

:

nowadays he's got a bit more time.

613

:

So basically it's more of a collaboration.

614

:

But there were a couple of years where we

just wrote everything and no one noticed.

615

:

which is nice.

616

:

But we like video games and robocop,

it's the same sort of people.

617

:

so Charlie's Very easy.

618

:

I love, I haven't worked

anywhere near enough with them.

619

:

Their friends, the ghost slot, the

horrible history slot are lovely.

620

:

I've worked a few times with them on

things, and that's like working with Monty

621

:

Python because they're all performers.

622

:

you throw a joke out and just

start throwing jokes backwards and

623

:

forwards and it's just brilliant.

624

:

So they're, they're lovely.

625

:

I'd love to work with them more.

626

:

I'll happily do anything with those guys.

627

:

but it's really weird now

628

:

they're

629

:

John: to be good.

630

:

this is related to someone who

maybe isn't or isn't thought

631

:

of that being very lovely.

632

:

But I did one time, and don't ask me why

I did this because I still don't really

633

:

know, but I did one time audition for the

634

:

Apprentice.

635

:

And, I dunno why I was thinking,

but I thought it might be fun and

636

:

it was unsuccessful, thankfully.

637

:

But whilst I was there, I was chatting

with, a lady who was also auditioning,

638

:

but she also worked in, BBC production

who was saying that the BBC really

639

:

struggled to get comedy and that

you've already said about that.

640

:

Distance between viewpoints

or the agreement on reality is

641

:

a problem do you think That's

642

:

why, they're really

struggling to get more comedy

643

:

on the BBC?

644

:

Joel Morris: it's a real

problem at the moment.

645

:

Ofcom have named it for six, seven years

running now as an art forming crisis there

646

:

are loads of very complicated reasons,

some of which you find out as you're

647

:

doing it I think that comedy at its best.

648

:

there is comedy.

649

:

Everyone gets, there's not much

of it and it's probably like

650

:

Laurel and Hardy or something.

651

:

Wallace and Grommet pretty broad

and it works and it's excellent, but

652

:

most comedy is more niche than that.

653

:

the big problem with comedy is unlike

if you want to watch drama or a

654

:

vote off show like The Apprentice

There's not really much required

655

:

of you to get it at the beginning.

656

:

It says there's a dead body and

the policeman wants to find out

657

:

who did it, and you go, good.

658

:

Oh, so do I.

659

:

And then you're in and you can watch

pretty bad police procedural and

660

:

still get quite a lot out of it.

661

:

You might get the end and go, that was a

pretty cheesy one, but I still enjoy it.

662

:

If you watch a comedy and you don't get it

straight away, you go, that's not comedy.

663

:

It stops being itself.

664

:

If you do comedy badly, it's not that

it becomes boring comedy, it just stops

665

:

being, when people say, that's not funny,

what they mean is, I don't find it funny.

666

:

But it stops being its own art form.

667

:

it's not, people say that's not art.

668

:

Anything you're intending to make people

laugh, really, you don't get to, the

669

:

audience doesn't get to decide whether

it's comedy or not, even though it's

670

:

got a visceral reaction because comedy,

you'll know this from doing live stuff.

671

:

Comedy that dies in front of one

audience will fly in front of another.

672

:

the problem with comedy is that

whereas most television forms.

673

:

Now a pretty much a cluster bomb.

674

:

It goes off and it hits everyone.

675

:

It's like dropping a bomb from a plane.

676

:

it flattens everybody, everyone goes,

I agree, the Antiques Roadshow is great

677

:

Sunday night telly, or the traitors is

great, whereas comedy's like a sniper

678

:

bullet and it, it hits you either exactly

on the funny bone or it misses completely.

679

:

So it's a big risk.

680

:

and what's happened with comedy recently,

which is a genuine technical thing that I

681

:

only found out this year trying to pitch

some sitcoms because I hadn't done any

682

:

for ages and someone said, come do some.

683

:

So I was pitching some sitcoms and

finding out that there is a tax break

684

:

in the UK for high end television.

685

:

So, so that to attract over the Andor

crew and Game The Thrones to come and

686

:

make stuff in in the Uk and it's set at

something like half a million, a million

687

:

an hour, and you get huge tax breaks.

688

:

So if you're making a program,

one of the episodes is free.

689

:

you get the tax money back.

690

:

Comedy used to cost about

250 to 350,000 a half hour.

691

:

So it's incredibly expensive to make.

692

:

So what they've done is they've

started making comedy more expensive.

693

:

So it becomes comedy drama.

694

:

Much bigger stars, bigger actors.

695

:

Bigger crews cost about

half a million an episode.

696

:

I know this Inside Number Nine

used to cost 350 k now cost 500 K.

697

:

So they make less of it because

they haven't got enough money.

698

:

So they have fewer programs going out,

and that means people will find it

699

:

harder to find things to find funny.

700

:

What used to happen is they made quite a

lot of comedy 'cause it was really cheap.

701

:

You could make two a day.

702

:

It was just put a hat on and that was a

sketch show Now it looks great, it's more

703

:

expensive, it requires a lot of backing to

make it at the level of a Game of Thrones.

704

:

And foreign investors won't invest in you.

705

:

So basically you can't do A split

program with American Telli, which

706

:

is really weird 'cause our comedy is

legendary world class and world renowned.

707

:

I've been to Golden Rose events.

708

:

Everyone respects your comedy.

709

:

Take Cunk there.

710

:

they all get it.

711

:

Comedy does travel more than you think.

712

:

Cunk's done very, very well

internationally, for Netflix who

713

:

would not investing in comedy.

714

:

They now are because

it's done well for them.

715

:

But there's a timidity about it.

716

:

And also now, because it's

expensive to make, same crews,

717

:

same actors, same writers.

718

:

So it could be Jesse or someone Charlie,

do drama and get paid really, really well.

719

:

Why would they come back

720

:

for a huge pay cut.

721

:

And struggle through making a half

hour comedy that within 10 minutes

722

:

everyone's gonna go, this is

723

:

John: art, Joel, for The

724

:

art.

725

:

Joel Morris: Now that's where I come in.

726

:

I think what's gonna happen is that

we're about to go through a bit of a

727

:

rejig, in filmmaking and TV making that

massive mega budget thing is gonna become.

728

:

A bit harder to do and they're

gonna be looking for cheap stuff.

729

:

I hope that when they look for

cheap stuff, they remember comedy.

730

:

if they can budget comedy in

like Mandy's in 15 minute chunks

731

:

or make it local, it's tribal.

732

:

comedy is where you depict

your nation, your people, your

733

:

beliefs, your class, your gender.

734

:

It's the one place where when

they went, let's do diversity.

735

:

Everyone went, well, we'll have a

comedy that's set here or whatever.

736

:

that happened way more

than it did in drama.

737

:

There was a comedy for everybody,

for every little group.

738

:

you need to make an awful lot of it

because otherwise you are, at risk

739

:

As has happened this year where they

announced the new, BBC comedies, and

740

:

they go, well, there are only six of 'em.

741

:

They're all white men.

742

:

And you went, yeah, but if you did all

six of 'em, they were all Asian men.

743

:

It would also be wrong.

744

:

It needs to be loads of different

voices, because everyone

745

:

will find their own favorite.

746

:

my example is I adore Silicon Valley.

747

:

I think Silicon Valley's one of my

favorite comedy shows, and I can't

748

:

Stand Big Bang Theory to anyone

outside comedy, they're the same show.

749

:

They're about the same thing.

750

:

Why do I like one and not the other?

751

:

Because one of them is a tiny bit

more bitter than the other one.

752

:

One's warm and I like one, and I can't

see what the appeal is of the other.

753

:

I know they're both really good shows.

754

:

So that's just me.

755

:

That's my prejudice.

756

:

They're both funny, but I

like one and I hate the other.

757

:

And they're almost identical because with

758

:

crime,

759

:

you like Line of Duty

and you like Endeavor.

760

:

the same drama.

761

:

It's the same, isn't it?

762

:

John: It always seems that comedy is

one of the things people are hungriest

763

:

for and want more of.

764

:

but it sounds like, well, I agree.

765

:

I hope things do shift, towards

766

:

Joel Morris: I think they

767

:

John: comedy because it seems that,

most of the stuff these days is

768

:

more or less comedy panel shows

TV comedy these days, it seems.

769

:

Joel Morris: Yeah.

770

:

I mean, it's an absolute nightmare

for people like me who write,

771

:

because you can get a job on those.

772

:

There are writers on it and

there are very, very good writers

773

:

on it, and there are very good

showcase for those comedians.

774

:

But I think as well, it does lead to a lot

of people who, if you look at someone like

775

:

Rob Brydon and you realize that he made

human remains Julia Davis, one of the best

776

:

written, dark character comedies ever.

777

:

But there's no reason for him to do that.

778

:

'cause he can do I to So you go,

well, how many human remains did

779

:

we lose from Rob who is a terrific

character comedian, terrific writer.

780

:

But why does he need to?

781

:

Because he can do panel games and he

can be very funny on those panel games.

782

:

I mean, there is no one who

could do, would I you better

783

:

than Rob in that position?

784

:

He's brilliant.

785

:

But part of me goes, I think

I'd have liked to have five

786

:

more drama, but they're hard.

787

:

it's agents as well.

788

:

they love to book a raft of people.

789

:

it's agent power.

790

:

John: I'm sure there's a lot of that.

791

:

And this may be a slightly

unfair question, but I hope

792

:

you'll do your best with it.

793

:

in your book you say that the three

main elements, of creative comedy

794

:

are construct, confirm, and confound

795

:

Joel Morris: Yeah.

796

:

John: can you explain a bit about those,

and what they need and how they work.

797

:

Joel Morris: I can do it quickly.

798

:

the most important

799

:

thing is if you're trying to tell jokes,

it's realizing what you are doing.

800

:

in any communications

medium, you'll know this.

801

:

There are things you're trying to do.

802

:

You're trying to set up your

aim and summaries like doing

803

:

a scientific experiment, aim

apparatus, method, conclusions.

804

:

you're trying to communicate ideas in

someone else's head so they can join you.

805

:

So you can share the joke with the class.

806

:

The craft of a joke is

something's tickled you.

807

:

What's the best way of getting how

you felt when you thought that was

808

:

funny into someone else's head?

809

:

So they feel the same way.

810

:

and there are three things you can do

with any piece of comic information.

811

:

You making a joke, either constructs,

confirms, or confounds, because

812

:

we're pattern finding creatures.

813

:

The construct beat says

man goes into a doctor.

814

:

That's where we are.

815

:

We're in a doctors.

816

:

You know what to expect from a doctors.

817

:

You know what people are asking doctors.

818

:

So that's constructing.

819

:

So you've built the set and then

confirm is the next thing you do,

820

:

which is usually to say, and something

happened to the doctors that you

821

:

expect to happen in a doctor's.

822

:

So a man comes in and says, can you

gimme something for this terrible wind?

823

:

And then the joke part, which people think

of the joke is the confound, which takes

824

:

all that data and turns left unexpectedly.

825

:

And the last beat there would be,

and the doctor gave him a kite.

826

:

So you go, can you gimme

something for this terrible wind?

827

:

It's like, I'm in the doctor's.

828

:

Can you gimme something for terrible wind?

829

:

Gave me a kite construct.

830

:

Doctors confirm something's wrong with me.

831

:

Confound, twist.

832

:

problem comes where that

last beat doesn't confound.

833

:

It confuses.

834

:

And I think that's the craft that

comedy writers learn to distinguish

835

:

between is something that just

leaps off into a mad corner,

836

:

'cause we can do surreal comedy or

something that naturally follows.

837

:

when you talk to neuroscientists and

neurologists about what the human

838

:

brain is doing, when it's analyzing

patterns, information, it goes

839

:

forwards through the data and goes,

that happens then, oh, that happens.

840

:

That makes sense.

841

:

When something doesn't

make sense, it rewinds.

842

:

Goes back and checks, does an error check.

843

:

if the error check comes up that it

makes no sense, it goes, oh, not funny.

844

:

If the error check comes back

and says, it does make sense.

845

:

I was just looking at it the wrong way.

846

:

I didn't think that's what wind meant.

847

:

Then it goes, oh, oh, I enjoyed that game.

848

:

Maybe I look at things the wrong way.

849

:

It's incredibly good for training

your brain to be flexible.

850

:

So the game you're playing with people

is a little like peepo with a baby.

851

:

You're playing a game where you

surprise them but you don't pull your

852

:

face back and it's something else.

853

:

people have to know what's coming.

854

:

I said this to someone this week that

the art of comedy is to do the expected

855

:

and still have people surprised,

which is if you think of every clown

856

:

you've ever seen, they're doing the

expected and you still are surprised.

857

:

So that last ta-da has to be a

surprise, but it doesn't work

858

:

without the first two beats.

859

:

And the craft, I think always is, you

think of a good pun in the morning,

860

:

I do it when I'm on social media.

861

:

99% of the work putting this out

there is making sure the first

862

:

two lines of the tweet or the

skeet set up where we are going.

863

:

So that last panel or that last

silly joke or that last gag about

864

:

the news you are in the same place

I was when I thought it was funny.

865

:

it's just sharing the joke with the class.

866

:

construct and confirm are

the unglamorous, unsexy, non

867

:

joke bits.

868

:

But weirdly, they're the

foundation on which the joke works.

869

:

John: Very cool.

870

:

Joel Morris: That's shorter than the book.

871

:

I should have just done that.

872

:

John: You could

873

:

Joel Morris: to the whole audio

874

:

book?

875

:

John: a little mini

876

:

Christmas

877

:

version or

878

:

something,

879

:

Joel Morris: yeah.

880

:

I think the ultimate lesson from it is

that so much work goes into the setup

881

:

that the joke is kind of optional.

882

:

You can put anything in there

if the setup's good enough.

883

:

in character comedy the characters

are so good, you can throw anything

884

:

at them and it'll be funny.

885

:

So I think it's one of those things where

people say, oh, I have to make this joke.

886

:

It is brilliant.

887

:

it can't come out the script

you always get it can 'cause

888

:

the setup was the hard work.

889

:

the joke, you lose a lot of favorite

jokes 'cause you can't get the setup right

890

:

John: is there any advice you can give

to anyone who's trying to put some

891

:

humor or jokes maybe

892

:

into a best man's speech, a presentation.

893

:

Joel Morris: I think you can do,

it's really funny when you read

894

:

on the page, this is a really

complicated lesson to learn.

895

:

I'm not quite good at jokes,

so I put jokes into things.

896

:

People don't laugh at

jokes as much as you think.

897

:

They laugh at playing the game

of guessing what comes next.

898

:

So there's lots of shows you might

watch on TV or stand up routines and

899

:

you go, there aren't any jokes in this.

900

:

80% of laughter is social rather

than triggered by joke prompts.

901

:

It's you knowing your friends.

902

:

You laugh when your friends are

like your friends, when they're

903

:

typical, when they're reminding

you of your shared values.

904

:

So what you're trying to do as a

performer of any sort or a deliverer of

905

:

comedy is make people feel comfortable

with you, that they know you.

906

:

I've got a really good example of this.

907

:

I did some ghost writing

for, a memoir last year.

908

:

I was talking to someone who'd never

written before, and she was really

909

:

nice a very good writer and very

intelligent, she knew what she was

910

:

doing, but she'd never written before.

911

:

And she was trying to share funny

anecdotes about her husband, who

912

:

was a very beloved and funny man.

913

:

she had this great actor.

914

:

She's a brilliant thing happened on

holiday where we fell off a boat.

915

:

It was like something from Jacque Ty.

916

:

It was pure slapstick that has to go in.

917

:

I went, that sounds great.

918

:

And she wrote it and I went,

yeah, but I don't know you and

919

:

I don't know why that was funny.

920

:

She said, so I rewrote it they'd hired

a boat in Greece set off into the

921

:

harbor, and then fell in the water.

922

:

I said, right.

923

:

Okay, so he went to the shop, bought a

captain's hat, and he put it on and then

924

:

he to the front and then he fell in.

925

:

She went, but he didn't do that.

926

:

I went, yeah, he did.

927

:

If you want the story to be funny,

he fell over captain's hat on.

928

:

You've gotta say you thought you were

kings of the sea before you fall in.

929

:

You've gotta be somewhere

to rise and then fall.

930

:

If you just fall in, I

might worry about you.

931

:

I've gotta know you're safe and you are.

932

:

He's a bit puffed up.

933

:

And I went, yeah, something like

that needs to go now I need to know

934

:

you've got somewhere to fall from.

935

:

And I would say that 90% of making

people laugh is at the beginning going

936

:

unaccustomed as I am to public speaking

is how you start best man's speech.

937

:

And people go, so I know who you are

938

:

or you say, I had someone

do this this week.

939

:

They went.

940

:

they were doing it.

941

:

It was a friend's birthday and

there were loads of comedians there.

942

:

his wife gave a speech, went, it's really

nerve wracking doing this speech in

943

:

front of so many professional comedians.

944

:

And then she was really funny I went, I've

seen people do it before in a room full

945

:

of comedians and it always works 'cause

I immediately like you, I understand

946

:

that these jokes have come from the heart

and that you're not trying to do one.

947

:

It's incredibly winning and

it tells me who you are.

948

:

I don't normally do this.

949

:

I've come from a completely

different background.

950

:

My jokes will be about that.

951

:

he went, oh, I know you.

952

:

It's a really nice trick.

953

:

So I think.

954

:

Pay attention to your setups.

955

:

'cause the jokes themselves

will usually go well.

956

:

And the other thing, I learned this

from Paddington, you can never add

957

:

jokes to make something funnier.

958

:

What you can do is you can weed

round them is there's us, you get

959

:

employed a lot to gag things up.

960

:

Can you add some gags?

961

:

No.

962

:

Remove as many gags as possible.

963

:

So the gags you've got, have space

around them and are reflective of

964

:

the assumptions of the audience.

965

:

I'm surprised how often you deliver

a script back and you've taken

966

:

half the gags out and they go,

thanks for adding so many gags in.

967

:

it's weeding a garden.

968

:

The flowers that are there look great

if you clear little space around them.

969

:

usually if you keep adding jokes, you

add a joke to a joke, to a joke and

970

:

people get confused, they get tired.

971

:

But set that joke up beautifully.

972

:

Pace it, what standups you love.

973

:

the amount of time

they're just setting the

974

:

joke up and the amount of time

that the audience get there before

975

:

them, because you've set it up so

beautifully and the audience love that.

976

:

They make the joke with you,

then it becomes communal.

977

:

you're not being machine

gunned with jokes.

978

:

You are making a joke together.

979

:

It's lovely.

980

:

John: If they don't tread on their laughs,

981

:

they give them some space, which I,

982

:

think

983

:

Joel Morris: they

984

:

wait.

985

:

you'll

986

:

see the, that patience

in a, in a good style.

987

:

I was watching some, trying to think,

Dara O´Brien as a stand actually.

988

:

I love watching.

989

:

He's technically so brilliant

and watching him and going,

990

:

this is a really slow buildup.

991

:

He's got a lovely tone of voice.

992

:

You're enjoying listening to him talk.

993

:

he gives a lot of his gags a

really good long runup, and every

994

:

time he does that, they land.

995

:

But yeah, you have to be Stuart

Lee and give it a half hour runup.

996

:

But you can give it like a 1, 2, 3, 4, 5.

997

:

It's not just

998

:

beats of three.

999

:

You can get a long way in before

and if the audience get there before

:

00:40:15,047 --> 00:40:15,827

you, they love it.

:

00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:18,235

John: Well, I'm definitely

gonna be working on my

:

00:40:18,265 --> 00:40:19,795

pre-framing for the audience,

:

00:40:19,795 --> 00:40:20,695

but for my next

:

00:40:20,695 --> 00:40:20,995

open

:

00:40:21,197 --> 00:40:21,947

Joel Morris: Wear a special

:

00:40:21,947 --> 00:40:22,367

hat.

:

00:40:23,957 --> 00:40:25,667

It can be down to your

jacket, it can be down

:

00:40:25,667 --> 00:40:26,357

to the poster.

:

00:40:26,447 --> 00:40:26,687

There's a

:

00:40:26,687 --> 00:40:28,607

million ways you can set the

audience up to expect your

:

00:40:28,850 --> 00:40:30,110

John: boy, it's given

me a lot to think about.

:

00:40:30,410 --> 00:40:31,980

Joe, you've been so generous with your

:

00:40:31,980 --> 00:40:34,050

time and your experience

and everything you said.

:

00:40:34,050 --> 00:40:36,660

I really, really enjoyed

speaking with you as well.

:

00:40:36,660 --> 00:40:39,660

I do actively encourage anyone

who hasn't already to go and check

:

00:40:39,660 --> 00:40:41,660

out your book, the funny or die.

:

00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:43,520

Available pretty much everywhere.

:

00:40:43,700 --> 00:40:44,840

Is there anything else you've got

:

00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,311

coming up that you'd like

people to be looking out for?

:

00:40:46,782 --> 00:40:48,222

Joel Morris: I would say

I would be funny or die.

:

00:40:48,282 --> 00:40:49,572

The paperback should be coming out soon.

:

00:40:49,572 --> 00:40:50,322

I'm doing a deal for it now.

:

00:40:50,322 --> 00:40:51,432

The publishers collapsed.

:

00:40:51,432 --> 00:40:53,322

If you buy the hard back,

I don't get any money.

:

00:40:53,502 --> 00:40:55,152

Audiobook, I do get the money from.

:

00:40:55,402 --> 00:40:57,202

so yeah, if this is the audio book

that's there, but there'll be an

:

00:40:57,202 --> 00:40:58,282

ebook and a paperback out soon.

:

00:40:58,282 --> 00:40:59,302

talking to a publisher next week

:

00:40:59,302 --> 00:41:01,102

about salvaging something

from the wreckage.

:

00:41:01,312 --> 00:41:02,242

it's a lovely book.

:

00:41:02,242 --> 00:41:03,052

I want to save it.

:

00:41:03,332 --> 00:41:06,062

other things I'm doing, I just did a

thing called Broken Veil, which is a

:

00:41:06,062 --> 00:41:09,372

horror thing, done with a, a comedy

writer friend of Michael Will Lin,

:

00:41:09,372 --> 00:41:12,522

because we're both massive Ghost

Story fans, and that's a podcast.

:

00:41:12,522 --> 00:41:16,272

It went to number one in the podcast

charts above the arches, a thing that you

:

00:41:16,272 --> 00:41:17,862

would think was impossible these days.

:

00:41:18,202 --> 00:41:19,072

I'm very, very proud of that.

:

00:41:19,077 --> 00:41:21,747

and it's basically, if you're a

comedy fan, there's lots in it.

:

00:41:21,747 --> 00:41:24,187

it's not a comedy, but we talk

to a lot of comedians in it

:

00:41:24,277 --> 00:41:25,567

about ghost stories and things,

:

00:41:25,957 --> 00:41:29,017

I think the techniques of

telling a scary story, telling

:

00:41:29,017 --> 00:41:30,337

a funny story are so similar.

:

00:41:30,737 --> 00:41:34,007

it was an exercise in trying to

demonstrate how storytelling techniques to

:

00:41:34,007 --> 00:41:35,837

hold someone's attention are very similar.

:

00:41:36,167 --> 00:41:39,227

I would challenge anyone to listen to

Broken Veil and not learn something

:

00:41:39,227 --> 00:41:42,347

about how to hold your attention

because it was an experiment in doing

:

00:41:42,347 --> 00:41:43,677

that, but in a different medium.

:

00:41:43,677 --> 00:41:44,757

I'm very proud of that.

:

00:41:44,857 --> 00:41:46,797

hopefully if you listen

to it and enjoy it.

:

00:41:46,797 --> 00:41:49,167

We're gonna do some crowdfunding

to make some more because

:

00:41:49,167 --> 00:41:50,187

people did really like it,

:

00:41:50,237 --> 00:41:51,222

John: I haven't checked out yet,

:

00:41:51,292 --> 00:41:51,712

Joel Morris: my other

:

00:41:51,712 --> 00:41:53,792

obsession is horror but I

think they're very similar.

:

00:41:54,670 --> 00:41:55,660

John: Definitely wants

to look out for, I'm

:

00:41:55,660 --> 00:41:56,800

gonna add it to my podcast

:

00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:57,160

list.

:

00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:57,760

Joel Morris: you love it?

:

00:41:58,098 --> 00:41:58,953

John: Joe, please stay on the line.

:

00:41:59,008 --> 00:42:01,108

it's been an absolute

pleasure chatting with you

:

00:42:01,108 --> 00:42:01,558

today.

:

00:42:01,608 --> 00:42:03,888

and thank you so much for

agreeing to come on the show.

:

00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:05,140

Joel Morris: Thanks for asking me

:

00:42:05,140 --> 00:42:05,290

on.

:

00:42:05,633 --> 00:42:07,163

John: Well, what a treat that was.

:

00:42:07,163 --> 00:42:11,663

And genuinely, I, when I reached out to

Joel, I honestly didn't expect him to

:

00:42:11,663 --> 00:42:16,103

agree to come on the show, and he did, and

he was very generous with, with his time.

:

00:42:16,103 --> 00:42:20,243

What you didn't see in that episode

was a whole load of technical hiccups.

:

00:42:20,243 --> 00:42:22,703

We actually spent several hours

together trying to figure out what the

:

00:42:22,703 --> 00:42:24,413

problems were and get the tech sorted.

:

00:42:24,683 --> 00:42:24,803

Um.

:

00:42:25,073 --> 00:42:26,483

He was very patient with that.

:

00:42:26,533 --> 00:42:30,163

So a massive thanks to Joel for that

and for peeling back the curtain on

:

00:42:30,163 --> 00:42:34,243

the craft of comedy and doing it with

the same intelligence, warmth, and wit

:

00:42:34,423 --> 00:42:36,373

he brings to everything he touches.

:

00:42:36,943 --> 00:42:40,873

If you haven't yet read, Be

Funny or Die, do yourself a

:

00:42:40,903 --> 00:42:42,703

favor and grab the audio book.

:

00:42:42,703 --> 00:42:44,593

Remember, that's the one that

Joel actually gets paid for.

:

00:42:44,863 --> 00:42:46,033

It's insightful.

:

00:42:46,033 --> 00:42:46,963

It is hilarious.

:

00:42:46,993 --> 00:42:49,303

And yes, he does read it himself.

:

00:42:49,943 --> 00:42:54,703

You can check out his excellent horror

meets storytelling podcast, broken Veil.

:

00:42:55,093 --> 00:42:55,753

Perfect.

:

00:42:55,753 --> 00:43:00,883

If you're curious about the spooky side

of structure, if this episode make you

:

00:43:00,883 --> 00:43:05,413

laugh, think or rethink how you show

up in front of an audience, subscribe,

:

00:43:05,443 --> 00:43:08,113

share it with a mate and leave a review.

:

00:43:08,263 --> 00:43:11,593

It helps more people to find

the show, and that's no joke.

:

00:43:11,953 --> 00:43:12,793

See you next time.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence: The Professional Speaking Show
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About your host

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John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.

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