Episode 207

The Human Equation in Ethical Persuasion: Insights from Dr. Thomas Trautmann

Harnessing Ethical Persuasion and Influence with Dr. Thomas Trautmann

Summary

This episode of 'Present Influence' features John Ball's conversation with Dr. Thomas Trautmann, an expert in AI, neuroscience, and neuro-marketing.

They delve into the significance of ethical persuasion and influence in sales and marketing, differentiating it from manipulation.

Dr. Trautmann explains how ethical persuasion focuses on addressing subconscious frustrations to build lasting customer relationships. John echoes the importance of acting within ethical frameworks, highlighting how genuine human connections foster trust and long-term success.

The episode also touches on the impact of post-COVID-19 social behaviours and the role of human interaction in the digital age.

For all the key points, actionable content and relevant resources mentioned in the episode, download this summary: Episode #207 Summary

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Sales and Ethical Persuasion

00:32 Meet Dr. Thomas Trautmann: Expert in AI and Neuroscience Neuromarketing

01:26 Understanding Neuromarketing and Ethical Persuasion

02:50 The Importance of Ethical Frameworks in Influence

04:08 The Role of the Brain in Decision Making

05:32 Building Long-Term Customer Relationships

15:50 Creating Emotional Variations for Effective Communication

19:30 Silent Listening and Tactical Empathy in Sales

23:33 The Power of Influence and Energy

24:28 Ethical Manipulation and Responsibility

25:34 The Role of Rational and Primal Brain

27:15 Effective Sales Techniques

28:01 Understanding Subconscious Frustrations

29:31 The Importance of Solving Problems

32:47 AI and Human Connection

36:46 The Need for Human Relationships

39:45 The Impact of Smiling and Mirror Neurons

42:30 Conclusion and Personal Philosophy

44:48 Upcoming Episodes and Coaching Opportunities

Do you want to be coached by John on the show? Shoot me an email and let me know what you's like to work on.

Go to presentinfluence.com to take the Speaker Strengths Quiz and discover your greatest strengths as a speaker as well as where to focus for growth.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Transcript
John:

It doesn't seem to matter what business you're in.

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You're in the business of sales.

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If you have a product or service

or even just an idea, we need to be

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able to sell other people on that.

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Some people have lots of negative

associations to sales, and

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some people even have negative

associations to marketing, seeing

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it as pure manipulation, but.

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Whenever I have talked about influence

and persuasion on this show, I've

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always aimed to do that within an

ethical framework or been very clear

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about where stuff potentially could be

outside of those kinds of frameworks.

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My guest today is Dr.

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Thomas Troutman and he is an expert

in AI and neuroscience neuromarketing.

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Dr.

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Trautmann sat down and talked with

me about ethical persuasion and

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influence in sales and marketing.

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It's a really fascinating conversation

with some great insights, and

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undoubtedly you may want to go

and check out more of his work.

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After the show, I will give you

all the links and everything

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you need to check out.

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Dr.

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Chapman will be in the show notes.

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I will also provide you a free

summary of the conversation that you

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can download from the show notes as

well, if you would like to keep that

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with you with all the key points and

actionable content from this episode.

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I.

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Right now, welcome to Present

Influence the show for professional

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communicators who want to

impact, influence, and inspire.

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My name's John Ball and I'm your

guide on this journey to mastery

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level communication skills.

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One of the reasons I'm very happy to

talk to you today is because I know that

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you work in the area of neuromarketing,

and I think it's something that

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people have probably heard about.

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Maybe a bit like me.

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What is that exactly?

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So could you tell us a little

bit about what Neuromarketing is?

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: yeah, absolutely.

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Neuromarketing is in fact the.

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The implementation of brain science

inside, inside marketing and sales.

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And I went one step further.

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I created ethical persuasion

because neuromarketing is very

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focused towards the business.

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And don't get me wrong,

it's working extremely well.

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It brings you to a digit growth

easily, that in your marketing,

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even though it's targeting the human

brain, there is a lack of humanity.

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When I was teaching neuromarketing

to employees from companies they

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were learning a lot on how to

improve the company, but they

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didn't get anything for themselves.

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So my desire was to add

humanity to neuromarketing.

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That's why I created ethical persuasion,

which is in fact, something where

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you get first something for you that

you can then implement with the same

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growth that Neuromarketing offers,

or at least you have something that

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you can use in your everyday life.

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John: I like that you bring in ethical

persuasion into this, and it's one of

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the reasons I think I really liked what

you talk about and how you were thought,

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I would say, how would I best say this?

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How you would describing what you

do that I've talked about ethical

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persuasion on this show since the

very first episode back in:

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Not on every episode, but it's

been a common theme throughout.

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And for me that's been the whole thing

of I've learned all sorts of tools

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of influence and persuasion over the

years, and I've learned even more since.

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And Robert Alini talks about this in

his books on influence these tools of

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influence are just tools and they can

be used for good or bad, but we want to

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teach them within an ethical framework

because that's how they should be applied.

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Even if you go back to the time of.

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Plato and Aristotle, like

Aristotle thought that no

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one could abuse this stuff.

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And Plato's no, I think they pretty much

can, but let's hope that they don't that

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we teach within an ethical framework.

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Why did that become so important to you?

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: Because in

fact when you ethical persuasion

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my system is called the ethical

persuader, so it's a little gameplay

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because a persuader in English sl.

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It's a gun I put on your head

to get something from you.

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So ethical per the ethical persuader, it

makes that too ethical because the ethical

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persuader system is all about you getting

from the people, the decisions you want,

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why they make the decision they need.

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And that's only possible if you

target the part of the brain that's

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running the decision process.

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So you mentioned Robert Cialdini

and the Six Truths of Influence.

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You can take many of the rules like

urgency or scarcity, for example,

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that have been abused over the time.

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Some air travel companies, well known

for, it's the last seat for 50 pounds

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or 50 euro or $50, and you come three

days later and the next seat is at 48.

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We all know that.

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Or it's the, those are the

two last phones left by now.

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One months later, they have

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That's abusing those things.

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So the brain, we default to

make a decision because that's

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how our brain is configured.

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But, and that's the beauty of ethical

persuasion, is that if you keep doing

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it as if has been done before, you

create, of course cells, fast cells,

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but you don't create recurring cells

and with ethical persuasion, in fact.

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You have, you increase your chance up to

70 person to create recurring business.

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It's well known.

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Dan Kennedy in marketing

says, A buyer is a buyer.

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It's easier to sell to someone who

already bought from you than to

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always try to run as than new clients.

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You need new clients.

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Don't get me wrong.

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You need your clients.

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But after that, once they become your

client, that's where you can start.

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To raise the price of the ticket that

you're selling, so that's the whole idea.

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John: Would you say then it is

making the realization in sales that.

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The long-term value of a relationship

and a customer is worth more than

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just one sale, where they're not

gonna trust you again afterwards.

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: Absolutely.

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It's all about, my brand

now is called Make Me Great.

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It's not make me great.

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It's what your clients are saying.

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It's what the brain of your clients

is shouting at you is Make me great.

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Think about me, work on me, I don't

want to hear about your products,

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your services, your sales, your brand.

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I want you to make me great.

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And that's when you elevate your clients.

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In fact, you elevate your

success because that brain is

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going to fall in love with you.

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It's going to want to follow you.

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It is going to be part

of what I call the tribe.

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Your tribe.

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The human species is a tribal species.

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We cannot live on our own.

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We belong to many tribes.

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Family, church, sports club

company, the division set of the

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company, and so on and so forth.

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And when you belong to a tribe, you

expect a lot from the tribe leader.

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John: Yeah.

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And.

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From one perspective, then it almost

takes away that regardless of your own

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personal ethics, being ethical in this

way is actually better for business and

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better for your profits and results.

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But hopefully maybe also helps people

feel a bit more virtuous that they're not

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just scamming or trying to rip people off.

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: Yeah, when you are,

as you said, scamming or you are putting

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pressure on people, like the famous old

encyclopedia cellar or a vacant cleaner

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cellar who put the foot inside of the door

to get in the house and make this demo.

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You always have something nagging

in the back of your mind, except if

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you're a completely unethical person,

which is not, I guess the case of

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your audience and of most people.

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So when you do it ethical, you

feel great because in fact you

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go back to being a human being,

get results by being who you are.

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By enjoying being yourself, by

enjoying being with other people.

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I always love it.

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I have a client who each time

I travel ask me, Thomas, do

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you have a new airport story?

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Because it is very funny.

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For the last couple of times

I went to the airport once.

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If I may give a few examples once you

know there the safety cues for everyone

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who travels through an airport, safety

cues are the worst nightmare you can get.

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'cause it lasts ages and you have to

unpack every, et cetera, et cetera.

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I arrive at the airport close to

where I live in France, and there

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was a sign with an acronym, and I

see that acronym quite a few times,

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but I had no idea what it means.

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So to the poor guy who was standing

there all day and driving us from one

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queue to the other one, I just went to

him and asked him, what is that about?

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It's what does it mean?

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And so somehow I pay attention to him.

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It wasn't about me getting as

fast as possible through that.

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It was me.

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Having a human relationship

and asking a question, paying

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attention to his brain somehow.

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So he didn't know it, but as he

appreciated me paying attention to

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him, I was moving ahead away from him.

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He said, sir, please come back.

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I would like you to go through this

queue, which is a fast track queue.

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So I ended up being the only one.

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And the safety agent who was

there, we asked her the question.

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So she also gets some interest from

two people, and she took special

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care from of me, the other day I

was at the Starbucks at the airport,

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and I was very nice with the guys.

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Usually the glass rose there and so on.

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So I had made some jokes and so on.

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That's my way to be because I,

I do ethical persuasion, right?

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And instead of having a coffee, I got a

huge cappuccino and a huge iced coffee.

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I told the poor guy I'm not

going to be and everything.

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He says, no problem.

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It's for the pleasure.

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So you create very

different relationships.

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John: Yeah.

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The reciprocity kicks in as well, right?

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: Exactly.

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John: I love that.

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What's not in your head?

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What is not ethical when

it comes to persuasion?

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Then other than like the fake

scarcity and things like that, are

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there particular techniques that you

think would never do that or would

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never do them in a particular way?

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: They're hammering

on people, insisting, because

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then the brain in front of you.

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We purchase from you

just to get rid of you.

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The brain makes decisions on the spot.

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So the audience has to understand

that the decision maker in the brain

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or the part of the brain running the

decisions has no clue about the future.

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It's in the present.

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It in fact, in the seven seconds window.

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So you have to get the

decision in that timeframe.

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When it makes a decision,

it needs to feel a gain.

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At the moment the decision is made.

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In fact, there is even one guy or some

guys who made the calculation the gain

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the brain needs to feel has to be 2.3

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times higher than the cost

of making the decision.

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So if I summarize it, I'm selling you

something for 100 euros or dollars.

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Your brain has to immediately get that.

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It's worth at least 230 euros or so.

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So you have to get there.

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But if I'm hammering on you all the

time, the gain is getting rid of you.

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You know that's worth more than the

price of what you're selling to me.

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But I will have defaulted to a

decision that's not helping me,

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that's not helping my brain.

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So then you are on the list of the people.

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I know it.

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We all know that all the tele

salespeople, even if someone is

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good on the phone, we hate them.

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We play with them.

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We hang up.

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So because they all use the same system

all the time, it's boring after a while.

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John: No when I've done sales myself

and been in a sales setting and closing

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team, the ethical part of it is so

important because there's ultimately

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no point in getting people who really

don't want this onto a closing call where

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you could pressure them into a close.

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The closer is there to try and seal

the deal, but shouldn't be there to

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hammer them and put pressure on to

get something you don't want because.

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A day or a few, several days later,

they're like, ah, I didn't want this.

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Now we're gonna complain.

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Get a refund, kick up a stink, whatever.

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It's more trouble than it's worth.

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You want people to get

what they really want.

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So I don't understand to some degree

unethical sales if you want to

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have longevity in your business.

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: The problem is people

have been trained that that it's not

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their fault, it's, they have been trained

to be rational and 97% of people still

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think we make rational decisions because

we add that superior species on earth.

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We adapt to the earth to us, and so on.

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But we still, for people have

to understand that the part of

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the brain making the decisions

is called the primal brain.

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It's the oldest part of our brain.

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It's a survival tool and it's

stock evolving something like

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100,000 to 50,000 years ago.

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So it's running processes that were making

a lot of sense when we were living in

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caves, running around naked in the jungle

or wherever, and trying to kill animals

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with stones makes a lot of sense, except

that we are now in the 21st century.

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And yeah, maybe those

problems should have changed.

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They haven't.

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So we still need to address that part

of the brain, and that part of the

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brain is a survival tool, and as such

is only interested in the survival of

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one and only one person on earth myself.

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That's why you have to make, so

if you keep being rational, you're

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trying to get the decision from

the rational part of the brain.

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So the decision maker is super

frustrated, and by the way, that has

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been demonstrated scientifically.

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That's the primary break

is the decision maker.

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There isn't even a guy, Daniel

Penman, who got a Noble Prize on

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his research in 2011 on that thing.

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If you keep being rational, but

as I always say, rational selling

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equals a loss of resources.

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You kill your resources because you

spend a lot of time hammering on them.

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You will have to give discounts,

longer tested trials blah, blah,

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blah, or more stuff together.

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All people listening who do that,

we say, oh yeah, sure, yeah.

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That's why I have to give a rebate.

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That's why.

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However, I have to lower my prices.

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You should never lower your price.

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You should find what is driving

the decision and maybe setting

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them up on something that targets

more the decision or down, here's a

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solution, not killing your margin.

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John: I think that's where the

relationship is so important, right?

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Is you.

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If you have something that looks really

good on paper, like all the benefits are

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there, all the value is there for you, but

you have a bad feeling about the person

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or the overall thing, you're probably not

gonna go with it based on that feeling

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because you know that the gut kicks in.

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I know we can override our gut sometimes,

but we often end up regretting it.

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But now usually the bad feeling is I

think there, people call it intuition,

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but I think we do pick up on stuff.

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Unconsciously that causes that to happen.

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I don't just think it is like a some

sort of magical sense that we have rather

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than it's all the unconscious or the

low level things that we've picked up

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on that have maybe damaged that trust.

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: Oh yeah

there, there are a lot of things.

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If just for the fun, how long,

how do you know how long it takes?

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A brain who meets you for the

first time, who decide if it's

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going to like you or hate you?

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It takes 0.3

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seconds.

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John: No way.

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: You come

through the door, it will say,

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I dislike John, or I like John.

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I may want to talk with him or

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John: that quick?

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: that quick.

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And because we treat visual signals faster

than audio on the phone, you have four

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seconds to make a good first impression.

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So maybe it's better to be on the phone

but our brain loves visual, we are

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body language readers, physiological

signal readers, because that's how

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the primary brain communicates mostly.

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John: And it makes sense.

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Our brains are still looking

for dangers and focus.

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We tend to still focus on the more

negative aspects and those things

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will flag up a lot quicker to us.

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What part does the re go into play with?

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You knoweth the ethical persuasion.

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If it's mostly an emotional thing.

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Is it, how do we put the ethical part

into our emotional decision making?

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: You need

emotions to make decisions.

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And a lot of communication

agencies get it very wrong.

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Because they haven't read Antonio Damo,

ch read a fundamental book in:

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which is departs error because most

think, yeah, if I get an emotion, they're

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going to make a decision, make him happy.

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He's going to decide, I make

a sad, she's going to decide.

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In fact, no, you have to

create an emotional variation.

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So in those seven seconds,

you have to take them from one

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emotional state to the next one.

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That's very issue because the

primary brain runs on contrast.

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It means contrast.

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You, your brain is lying to you.

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For example, when you get into

a freshly painted room, you

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get in smells like fresh vent.

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After five minutes, you cannot

smell the fresh man anymore.

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The paint is still there.

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The molecules are still there, but

as there is no contrast, because

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the brain has such a limited.

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Calculation power.

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If I want to compare it to a computer,

it just discards information,

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which is not contrasted because

it's it's useless for the break.

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It's the same thing when

it comes to emotion.

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If you only drive in the same emotion,

I will not, I couldn't care less.

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If you create that emotional

variation, then something happens

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and you can create it once.

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You know what triggers a decision.

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John: Yeah.

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And that's a critical element

for all levels of communication.

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One that comes up a lot working with

professional speakers of this vocal

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variety, emotional variation in how

you talk and what you talk about.

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If everything's all at one level,

as you say, we switch off to it

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and we, we actually get bored

surprisingly quick, I think.

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Which isn't good.

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And so we'll try and keep the

variety going on the podcast

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so people can, listening to us.

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But let me ask you, who are the

kind of people that you've generally

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worked with and what kind of benefits

have they seen from employing

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these ethical persuasion systems.

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Dr Thomas Trautmann: So I work with

entrepreneurs, business owners,

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CXOs, and what they see is, first of

all, the relationships are changing.

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The effect on their business is crazy.

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But if I just a very simple example.

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I was coaching a team of salespeople

for one company and implementing

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ethical persuasion requires an effort.

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It's very easy to understand.

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But it's a 180 degrees shift

in your thinking and way to

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talk, sell to people.

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No.

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But that guy, it took him, it took

him two months to start to implement

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the tools that I'm teaching.

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One of them being what I

call silent listening, and

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paying attention to the other.

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And he managed to do it during one

meeting and he says, how much is that?

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Absolutely crazy.

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I haven't spoken about my

services, my products, our

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company, myself, I listen to them.

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I paid attention to what

triggers the decision process.

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And at the end of the meeting

they said, you know what?

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We are going to work with

you because you care.

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Boom.

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John: Yeah.

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People wanna know that you're listening

to them and you understand them.

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And you may have come across Chris Voss

stuff with Never Split the Difference

367

:

where he talks about tactical empathy.

368

:

It's like you really listen, but you

also repeat back some stuff and say,

369

:

okay, it sounds like you're saying this.

370

:

It seems like you feel this way so

that people really get that sense.

371

:

Is that something that you would

bring in as well as one of the tools?

372

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: But that's

something that you can use because

373

:

it just shows that you are listening.

374

:

I call it silent listening because

a lot of fun you are taught

375

:

listen to what people say, right?

376

:

It's very funny when you listen to what

someone says in your brain, it goes,

377

:

oh yeah, I need to talk about that.

378

:

And then we have to talk about this.

379

:

What?

380

:

And then you no more listen because

you're thinking about what you want

381

:

to tell, what the other person doesn't

care about what you want to tell.

382

:

So silent listening, and it's a tough one.

383

:

It is just.

384

:

Shut up.

385

:

I know up there.

386

:

Be quiet.

387

:

John: The hardest thing,

388

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: It's super

complex, and very often people

389

:

ask me, Thomas, give me a simple

trick I can implement right now.

390

:

I always say, use the view language

when you write an email, when you

391

:

pick up the phone with someone who

don't really know, with whom you don't

392

:

have a very advanced relationship.

393

:

You have to put everything in you.

394

:

John, you are currently having pleasure

doing this podcast and you are learning

395

:

something about ethical ion, and you

will get this and you will get that.

396

:

Usually we should say, Hey John, I'm

happy to be on your podcast because I'm

397

:

going to tell you about Ethical Ion.

398

:

It's the same message, just one I'm

talking about myself, because of

399

:

course my little brain is focused on

me while your brain is focused on you.

400

:

It's very difficult to

speak with the U language.

401

:

I can tell you it's super, it sounds super

easy, but it's so difficult because we

402

:

are, every one of us, even Mother Teresa,

we are all super self-centered animals.

403

:

John: Yeah, I'm very well aware of doing

that when I'm writing copy, particularly

404

:

marketing copy but also when I'm

writing talks and presentations, that

405

:

is very important to have that language.

406

:

It's essential to have those in the

abstracts for things where you're saying,

407

:

that bookers are gonna be doing, that's.

408

:

Kind of a form of marketing as well,

I just had a question about the

409

:

side and this thing because I really

like that thing and whether there's

410

:

any element of that, which is in a

sales meeting or a sales call, the

411

:

person has mostly made the decision.

412

:

And so it is partly your job

as the sales rep or closer.

413

:

To not talk them out of it.

414

:

So I can see why maybe being silent is

like people do actually talk themselves

415

:

more into what it is that they already

want, that they've come on the call for.

416

:

'cause they're probably not gonna

show up for a call or a meeting.

417

:

Otherwise if they're

not already interested.

418

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: Yeah, that's true.

419

:

But then you still have to persuade them.

420

:

Know they may be interested, but they have

made the decision to talk to you, but they

421

:

haven't made the decision to buy from you.

422

:

John: They're not over the

423

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: further with

you, it's like when you are talking

424

:

about speaking events and so on.

425

:

The only objective you should have

when you are speaking is to get the

426

:

decision from them to listen to you

and then don't get them bored to death.

427

:

But the first thing you

want them to listen.

428

:

And so you, it's again, it every,

in fact, people have to understand

429

:

that everything we do in our

life in our day is persuasion.

430

:

Some people will call it selling because

selling has a very bad reputation.

431

:

Because of all those past sales

techniques that were used and see some

432

:

that are used so people are even ashamed

to sell that they are a salesperson.

433

:

I'm sorry.

434

:

When you want to persuade your husband

or wife to go to a specific restaurant,

435

:

you are selling her or him on that.

436

:

Our kids are selling us all the time

and they are very bad salespeople,

437

:

but they're super efficient.

438

:

'cause they're going to hammer

439

:

John: Yeah.

440

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: because

they know that what drives your

441

:

decision is to be left alone.

442

:

So they use that technique because

they know it's going to work.

443

:

They trigger your decision by

removing that pain from you.

444

:

So they are super good

subconsciously without knowing

445

:

it, they use the right technique.

446

:

So we are selling all the time.

447

:

So don't be ashamed to sell, to say that

you're selling, if you're a salesperson.

448

:

And do it ethically and it's life

would be so nicer for everyone.

449

:

John: There's always the thing that comes

out when we talk about persuasion or some

450

:

people seeing it just as manipulation and.

451

:

It's not untrue that it is, but I think

it's just that word has such negative

452

:

connotations for most people that you see

manipulation as being a really negative

453

:

thing that everything we do in life, as

you say, is pretty much there to either

454

:

consciously or unconsciously manipulate

people in our environment around us.

455

:

We are always influencing other people.

456

:

I think one of the things that

I, particularly think highlights

457

:

this is even the energy that we

show up in, in our daily lives is

458

:

influencing the people around us.

459

:

If we are grim and miserable, that's

what we are putting out to our, so

460

:

people are gonna react or respond

to us differently than if we are

461

:

smiling and warm and welcoming.

462

:

The way people respond around us and

react is gonna be very different.

463

:

So that is influence, that is persuasion.

464

:

You could even call it.

465

:

Unconscious manipulation,

unintentional even.

466

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: Yeah.

467

:

When it's unintentional, I still

think because it's unintentional I

468

:

would put it more into the ethical

side, because it's you and people

469

:

may react in one way or another,

but you have to go with it, right?

470

:

Because as you said.

471

:

That's what you're projecting.

472

:

That's the energy that

you're giving people.

473

:

So if they react badly, but

subconsciously that's what you want.

474

:

And it's like when they sell, everything

that happens to you is because of you.

475

:

You're responsible of it.

476

:

If people are a pain on the phone,

then maybe you are a pain on the phone.

477

:

Maybe you should think about that.

478

:

If they are all grumpy around you, maybe

you know you're responsible for it.

479

:

So I said the same thing to my

son this morning, because yeah,

480

:

everyone is complaining and so on.

481

:

I said, what?

482

:

Everyone is complaining and

you're the only one in the middle.

483

:

Who do you think is the problem?

484

:

John: That's the thing the stuff

that triggers us, there's always

485

:

something to learn from it, otherwise

it wouldn't be triggering us.

486

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: Yeah, and then

you have to pay attention to that.

487

:

But as you're super sensitive, you don't

care because you think you're right.

488

:

No.

489

:

It's what's very complex

with our brain is that.

490

:

The thing that could save us from many

bad decisions is our rational brain.

491

:

And the more educated you are the

better The environment where you

492

:

live, your the more efficient that

rational brain is going to be.

493

:

And it's for the neocortex, by the way.

494

:

The only strong is that neuro cortex

is 200 times slower than the private

495

:

brain, than the decision maker in.

496

:

The brain and yeah.

497

:

A very good example is when you

have an argument with someone

498

:

and you come out with the very

well known two words, in fact.

499

:

Yes.

500

:

But I'm sure you experience it the

moment you say, but there is an

501

:

alarm signal ringing in your because.

502

:

Yes, but comes out by the primal

brain and the rational brain says,

503

:

don't say that, but it's too late.

504

:

It's out, and you know you are in trouble.

505

:

The yes, but is a good one.

506

:

Everyone says it.

507

:

John: Yeah.

508

:

It is and it is some,

and it's come up before.

509

:

I've heard that one before

and have consciously worked on

510

:

switching the Yes buts to Yes.

511

:

And because of the way that the

word, but just negates some other

512

:

stuff that's become before it.

513

:

The yes and philosophy is one from improv

of, allows people to throw the ball back.

514

:

It keeps the communication going

and doesn't negate the other person.

515

:

But like you gonna mention before we have.

516

:

These things don't come

so naturally to us.

517

:

We do have to train ourselves into them.

518

:

And so like them being a bit

quieter, keeping our mouth shut

519

:

when we're, and really listening

to people, that takes time.

520

:

Even the sales techniques that do work.

521

:

Ethical sales techniques that do

work and help people to get to a

522

:

decision and take time to learn.

523

:

What would be examples

from what you teach of.

524

:

What actually does help to lead people

ethically to the decision beyond listening

525

:

well and not negating what they're saying.

526

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: The very first

thing you have to do is to get that

527

:

brain in front of you, to listen to

you, and the easiest way to do that

528

:

is to show to that brain that you

know what triggers the decision.

529

:

What triggers the decision is

called a subconscious frustration.

530

:

Very often in marketing or in

sales, they talk about the pain.

531

:

What are the pain points of the client?

532

:

It's his business, it's his

employees, it's the market.

533

:

So those are rational pain points,

but they don't trigger the decision.

534

:

What triggers the decision is a

set of subconscious frustrations,

535

:

and if in the very few.

536

:

First two words you use, you show

to that brain that you know what the

537

:

subconscious frustrations are or what

the highest subconscious frustration in

538

:

relationship to what you are selling.

539

:

Of course, 'cause we are thousands

of subconscious frustrations.

540

:

But you are, you want the one that's

connected to what you're doing.

541

:

If you show through that brain in a

very simple sentence that you know it,

542

:

that brain is going to focus on you and

it's going to want to listen to you.

543

:

Because you are going to do your best

to remove that subconscious frustration.

544

:

That's the moment where you become

ethical because you made the work to

545

:

get a decision that works for you.

546

:

But as it removes on their side, that

subconscious frustration, you are helping

547

:

them, the brain is going to love you.

548

:

It takes more time.

549

:

It doesn't cost you resources

because the brain going to go for it.

550

:

I mainly never negotiate one of my prices.

551

:

'cause why would I, my, the

price is the value of my service.

552

:

But as my service removes the subconscious

ation and it matches how all those

553

:

things work that don't deplete my

resources, but it takes me more time.

554

:

'cause I have to study who I'm talking to.

555

:

I have to understand who they are.

556

:

I have to understand what subconscious

frustrations are driving their decisions.

557

:

How I can trigger this.

558

:

John: I do find I come across this and

I've experienced it myself to some degree.

559

:

'cause I work a lot in the

coaching and speaking world.

560

:

I.

561

:

That a lot of people who are

professional coaches, professional

562

:

speakers don't quite get that they

actually need to be solving a problem.

563

:

They maybe want to have a message out

there, or they have this idea of, this

564

:

is what I want to present to the world,

or this is how I want to help people

565

:

and aren't always clear on the problem

that they're solving for other people.

566

:

And you're talking about the

frustration points and that you.

567

:

Now you can charge what

you do because you solve.

568

:

Solve a frustration point for

them that's solving the problem.

569

:

If you weren't solving a problem for

them, the lever to make the purchase

570

:

decision is gonna be much more difficult.

571

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: Yeah, or you

have to default to manipulation,

572

:

ion influence, and all those things.

573

:

Again, you're going, you reduce sales.

574

:

People have been selling with those

techniques for ages, but what you

575

:

catch are what I call the tire kickers.

576

:

You don't get those who are going to

build a relationship with you and be

577

:

recurring customers and very often people.

578

:

It requires what, I'm sorry, there is no

magic wand here, or magic sauce or secret.

579

:

It requires work.

580

:

It requires you to make the effort.

581

:

We have reached a stage in a

time where everyone thinks that

582

:

you get everything in a click.

583

:

I'm sorry.

584

:

No.

585

:

And they all run after

those magic bullets.

586

:

I'm coaching people and the first thing we

do is let's stop with the magic bullets.

587

:

Let's work, let's focus on something

that, where you can help someone you can

588

:

help to remove subconscious frustrations.

589

:

Who is the person who

is your ideal client?

590

:

People don't even know sometimes who

they want to sell to, who's either

591

:

ideal client, and once they know it,

what's a subconscious frustration?

592

:

Oh, but that's complex on us.

593

:

Yes, I know.

594

:

Even the person doesn't know it.

595

:

To help the audience maybe

to better understand the

596

:

subconscious frustration idea.

597

:

If, and I'm a bad example

because of my haircut.

598

:

If you are selling a shampoo, for example,

or a hair conditioner for men, let's say.

599

:

So the rational way would be to say,

okay, with that shampoo, hair conditioner,

600

:

your hair is going to look blonde

smoother, and have that wave and it's

601

:

style, and you will be very stylish.

602

:

That's rational.

603

:

Primal selling would be what if

you would be the only person people

604

:

want to talk to the one person who

attracts everyone at the next party.

605

:

In that sentence, I'm

showing you your problem.

606

:

Actually, no one wants to talk to you.

607

:

And with my, what if I let you

imagine how it's going to be?

608

:

And it took me one second, not even seven

seconds in that one sentence, I have

609

:

touched your subconscious frustration.

610

:

I have created the emotional variation

611

:

John: Yeah.

612

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: and your

decision, and you're even going to

613

:

think that I've solved the problem

when I haven't solved anything yet.

614

:

John: Because

615

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: brand

grain is going to love me.

616

:

John: Yeah.

617

:

We I've come across this

with marketing before.

618

:

If you can clearly identify a problem for

people there, then the assumption comes

619

:

that oh, you get that, you understand

that you must have the solution as well.

620

:

You are automatically credited with that.

621

:

We see everywhere now AI is

all over the place and I think

622

:

it is, it's hard to even.

623

:

Completely predict how much is

gonna change things for us and

624

:

the working environment stuff.

625

:

But one thing that seems to come up

again and again is that it probably not

626

:

really gonna take away the areas where

we still need to relate to other people.

627

:

The human connection.

628

:

That it's not, hopefully not at

least going to fully replace that.

629

:

People who are doing coaching consulting,

they're person to person staff.

630

:

There's the professional speaking for

example where there's still a very much

631

:

a need for human presence and connection.

632

:

Is gonna be particularly essential.

633

:

But where does any of this fit

in with, because I think you have

634

:

some background in AI as well.

635

:

Where do you feel that this

maybe fits in with neuro

636

:

marketing and ethical persuasion?

637

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: I think it's

a fantastic tool to create content,

638

:

but it's only a fantastic tool where,

what you expect from that tool.

639

:

Yeah.

640

:

It's very funny because yes, I had

a PhD in artificial neural networks,

641

:

which 30 years ago when I was

doing my PhD, we didn't even work.

642

:

We refused to be called

artificial intelligence.

643

:

'cause at that time, the expert

systems were artificial intelligence

644

:

and we, the artificial neural

network guys that it was disgusting.

645

:

So we didn't want to be called

artificial intelligence.

646

:

And nowadays artificial neural

networks are what's powering

647

:

GPT and all those things.

648

:

So you have to understand that artificial

neural networks are learning models.

649

:

In fact, they are met to learn.

650

:

You give them an input.

651

:

They come with outputs.

652

:

If there is a delta to the expected

output, they correct themselves.

653

:

And you can see if you insist with GPT,

for example, when something is wrong and

654

:

you keep insisting, it's diving deeper

and deeper into the wrongness of the

655

:

answers because it's learning wrongly.

656

:

So you have to clean the

slate and start again.

657

:

So we can only get good

things from AI if we.

658

:

Teach it properly what we want.

659

:

And you can see people

who write good prompts.

660

:

They don't write one line, they write

a full paragraph of instructions.

661

:

They're very precise because

they know what they want.

662

:

Yeah.

663

:

It's like people tell, yeah, but

I'm going to design my website.

664

:

You don't even know what you

wanna put on your website.

665

:

Don't create a website if you

don't know what comes in it.

666

:

What's the purpose of it?

667

:

I'm coaching clients and this,

let's do, because you have to be

668

:

very present on social networks,

but don't post just to be there.

669

:

You can do it to be seen, but you have to

have a strategy behind everything you do.

670

:

It has to go somewhere.

671

:

It has to persuade someone.

672

:

No, it has to drive them to

the results you want while you

673

:

help them at the same time.

674

:

So AI will help, but I think it's very

far from understanding human emotion.

675

:

Even we humans don't

know how emotions work.

676

:

There are so many models on emotions.

677

:

It said at the moment that you

experience per day between 20 to

678

:

40,000 emotional states in your brain.

679

:

I think you were thinking,

oh, I was happy this morning

680

:

and I'm beside this afternoon.

681

:

You think I have two emotions today?

682

:

No.

683

:

You go through those

emotional states all the time.

684

:

Predict that we can experiment up

to 60, 64,000 different emotions.

685

:

John: I can't imagine how anyone

would've calculated that accurately.

686

:

But I would certainly, we have conscious

awareness of all that, as you say.

687

:

But it's an interesting prospect.

688

:

I'm certainly glad that AI isn't too

much of a threat, but I do still think

689

:

that is a good thing to be leaning

into the relationship side of things.

690

:

What do you see as being like is

ethical persuasion still going to,

691

:

is it gonna be more commonplace?

692

:

Do you think in the future?

693

:

Do you think more people

are gonna adopt this?

694

:

What's what?

695

:

Where are we headed?

696

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: that's my work.

697

:

John: Yeah, I.

698

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: That's my work.

699

:

No.

700

:

I think the more we go into tools

that take us away from our humanity.

701

:

The more we're going to need this

humanity and the more we're going

702

:

to need human relationships.

703

:

That's how our species survive

because we are tribal species

704

:

because we stick together, we

work together we grow together.

705

:

We all have different roles

in the tribes we are in.

706

:

So again, even homosapiens who

we are, science still doesn't

707

:

know exactly why we are the one

be petal species that survived.

708

:

There was homo

709

:

and homo come from Africa.

710

:

We had some other Homo

European an in Europe.

711

:

Why is homo sapiens everywhere?

712

:

Is it because we were the most invading

evolution of the species, or were

713

:

we the one who could the most mingle

with other species to the point we

714

:

became the only Beal species on earth?

715

:

We cannot live without human.

716

:

Many relationships.

717

:

Look, during Covid, when we were in

lockdown, I didn't experience it.

718

:

Most people here in the south of

France were living in the GA region.

719

:

The first of all, French don't listen.

720

:

So we didn't give a shit.

721

:

John: I.

722

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: And being, we are

living in another part of France where

723

:

we are outdoors all the time, even if

we don't meet someone with our family.

724

:

And so we are outdoors, we enjoyed,

but people in major big towns, big

725

:

cities were in lockdown in their

apartments and some went ballistic and

726

:

you can still see the aftermath of it.

727

:

John: Yeah.

728

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: I talking lot of

people and they always say something

729

:

changed, talk with taxi drivers, they

think people are more aggressive.

730

:

Talk with people in supermarkets,

people are more aggressive.

731

:

Real estate people are more aggressive.

732

:

So because something switched a little bit

because of that lockdown of being removed

733

:

from who we are, and that wasn't about the

secret persuasion because we somehow, we

734

:

all knew we got played, so we're pissed.

735

:

John: But I do think there's beyond

making sales and making money, there

736

:

is a bigger impact to be had with

really listening to peer poll and

737

:

being present with them and paying

attention we are developing relationships

738

:

and closeness and interaction.

739

:

I'm someone, I work remotely.

740

:

Maybe, I don't know how much of

your work is remote, but I work

741

:

remotely most of the time, apart

from when I'm giving presentations.

742

:

I do some in person work with the events

and things, but most of it's remote

743

:

and sometimes I don't realize how much

it affects me that I don't go out and

744

:

meet people who are my peers or my

friends, as much as I would really

745

:

like to like last Friday, went and

had lunch with a friend that hadn't

746

:

done it for ages, and it's oh my God.

747

:

You sort starts this is what I've been

missing needing that connection, needing

748

:

that interaction from other people.

749

:

But you're right.

750

:

COVID really highlighted that for

us, but I think we can, yeah, I think

751

:

this maybe we all will as well is

actually part of the repair work.

752

:

The healing from that, that we

start making things a bit better

753

:

for people and connecting.

754

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: Just be human, the

first thing is pay attention to other

755

:

people, but it doesn't cost you anything

to smile to someone and look at how people

756

:

are surprised when you smile at them.

757

:

They either think that you're nutcase

or they stop and they look at you,

758

:

and then they smile and you can

see it's made them feel good, in

759

:

fact, that's my why, because.

760

:

When I smile, even when I do it

consciously, what I'm doing right

761

:

now, with the little wrinkles here and

so on, because I do it consciously.

762

:

My muscles moving, my primal

brain thinks I'm smiling.

763

:

So it gives me a reward.

764

:

It gives me a shoot of endorphins.

765

:

And because you saw me smile,

you smile a little bit.

766

:

But there is also a theory about

mirror neurons, meaning that if I

767

:

move my hand, if you see my hand

move, you may not move your hand.

768

:

But the neurons triggering the

hand movement are currently

769

:

triggered in your brain.

770

:

So if I smile, your neurons connected

to your smile are triggering,

771

:

so you get a shoot of endorphin.

772

:

So it's free drugs.

773

:

So if I smile, you smile.

774

:

If you smile, someone else smile.

775

:

And we may make the world smile, and

then our children have a better place.

776

:

That's why I do what I do.

777

:

I could do many things to get

there, but I'll do that through.

778

:

Keeping ethical persuasion

from my books, my trainings,

779

:

workshops, coaching, and so on.

780

:

So that's the idea.

781

:

They're still like build people on earth.

782

:

So there's still little bit of work.

783

:

John: I love that.

784

:

I love, love, love some mirror neurons.

785

:

The fact that they can help with so

many different aspects of like mental

786

:

rehearsal and preparation as well for

things and for how you show up and

787

:

how you feel on a day-to-day basis.

788

:

Probably we'll have to do a complete

episode at some point just on that

789

:

one topic because it's big in itself.

790

:

This has really been a very fascinating

conversation for me and I'm pretty sure

791

:

our listeners gonna enjoy this as well

and will maybe like me, will want to know

792

:

more and maybe, check how can they find

out more about neuromarketing, make me

793

:

great, all the other stuff that you do.

794

:

The ethical persuasion.

795

:

Where should people go to

find out more about you?

796

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: They can find more

on my website, which is happy brains.com,

797

:

or you have make me great.com

798

:

and if they want to connect,

I'm easy to find on LinkedIn.

799

:

I am Thomas Rodman from Happy

Brains, and it's easy to see.

800

:

I'm the bold guy with

the brain, so there are

801

:

John: And the cool glasses.

802

:

I'm a bit jealous of your glasses.

803

:

They look much cooler than mine.

804

:

I might have to invest in

a flash pair like that.

805

:

They look really cool.

806

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: I will

tell you the name of the brand.

807

:

John: I appreciate that.

808

:

I certainly will be checking out more

of your content and I look forward to

809

:

hearing more from you in the future on

ethical persuasion and happy brains.

810

:

The likes that Dr.

811

:

Thomas Trotman, it's been a real

pleasure having you on present influence.

812

:

Thank you.

813

:

Dr Thomas Trautmann: Thank you.

814

:

I enjoy your job.

815

:

Thank you.

816

:

John: To sum up my thoughts on this,

I've always thought that persuasion and

817

:

influence should be taught and acted

on within ethical frameworks, because

818

:

otherwise we do become the con artists

who are trying to trick people into doing

819

:

what we want or trying to negatively

manipulate people in situations to our own

820

:

ends and not for their greater outcomes.

821

:

I think most of us are good people

who want to do good things, and so

822

:

we shouldn't be abusing the tools of

influence and persuasion, but certainly

823

:

they can be abused and pretty much all

of them as well, not just Cialdini's six

824

:

tools, although there are seven now in

the new updated version of his book, but

825

:

also the tools of rhetoric can be abused.

826

:

None of those things will leave us

feeling good about ourselves and

827

:

probably not good about our results

because it's not all about the money.

828

:

If all that matters to you in your life

is money, then you are lacking some deeper

829

:

meaning and you're probably lacking a

lot of love and close relationships.

830

:

Success in life is success in all areas of

life that you can have it not just in one.

831

:

And whilst money is important, it is not

the only thing that gives you a rich life.

832

:

So, let's aim to be ethical and as the

stoic philosophers would say, virtuous

833

:

in our actions, that we act with

good intent and goodwill for others.

834

:

That we care for our fellow humans

as best we can, and that we don't

835

:

look to just fulfill our own needs.

836

:

This may be beyond the messaging of

this particular show, but this is my

837

:

personal philosophy of that we can

do a lot to help each other out just

838

:

by how we show up in the world and how

we act and interact with other people.

839

:

That can teach other people, or at

least show others that there can be

840

:

a better way of acting and behaving.

841

:

Not that we should become doormats to be

walked over, but that we should be kind in

842

:

our actions, but firm as well with others.

843

:

That we should have healthy

boundaries with people.

844

:

We should be unafraid to say

no, unapologetic for being true

845

:

to ourselves and more besides.

846

:

And if you've been listening to

this show for a while, you'll know

847

:

that these are important elements.

848

:

On Friday, I'm gonna be

sharing with you something new.

849

:

I'm gonna be sharing with you a

coaching call that I recorded , with

850

:

someone who is a listener to the show.

851

:

And I am looking for more people who want

to do this as well, because I do think

852

:

it's gonna give you great insights into

things that are gonna help you develop

853

:

your communication skills, whether that's

as a professional speaker and looking to

854

:

do more keynotes, or whether you just want

to improve your communication outright.

855

:

If that's you and you would like

to be improving your communication

856

:

skills or stepping up your keynote,

or maybe even adding a bit of humour

857

:

into what you do, then get in touch.

858

:

The coaching sessions themselves

are gonna be around 30 minutes.

859

:

They are gonna be free.

860

:

The catch is that they will be

published on the show, so other

861

:

people will be able to watch and

listen to your coaching sessions.

862

:

They will not be private.

863

:

If you do actually want private coaching

calls, and that's something you'd like

864

:

to speak to me about, those aren't

free, but you can get in touch with me

865

:

to find out more about what's on offer

or go and visit present influence.com

866

:

and take a look at the different

coaching packages there.

867

:

Before I go, so that's on Friday.

868

:

Next week I'll be speaking

with Mentalist Keith Kong.

869

:

Really cool guy.

870

:

And he was a winner of Penn and

Teller's Fool Me show, if you've ever

871

:

seen that, Penn and Teller fantastic.

872

:

Love them.

873

:

And if you've ever been to Vegas,

you may have seen them as well.

874

:

And there's certainly been on a lot of tv.

875

:

He won that as basically kind

of a magic or trick show.

876

:

He, he, he's a professional mantalist.

877

:

done shows mostly in the US and he sat

down to talk with me about mentalism,

878

:

how to entertain as a mentalist and

some insights into how mentalism

879

:

works and to how he can influence

crowds and audiences from the stage.

880

:

Really fascinating conversation

and Keith is such a nice guy.

881

:

So I hope you'll come and

join me for that next week.

882

:

For now, wherever you're going,

whatever you're doing, have

883

:

an amazing rest of your day.

884

:

See you next time.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence
The podcast that helps professional communicators learn the skills that increase influence, impact and authority.

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for John Ball

John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.

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