How to Write Speeches That People Will Remember (Speechwriting Secrets from Political Speechwriter Rob Noel)

John: 00:00:00

If you've ever wondered how to make your speeches not just heard but

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remembered, you'll want to stick around.

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By the end of this episode,

Rob Noel shares how even small

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shifts in your structure can

radically transform your impact.

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Whether you are convincing

the boardroom or the nation.

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So if you want speeches that truly stick,

listen through to the end, you'll thank

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yourself next time you take the stage.

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Welcome to Professional Speaking,

the show for people serious about

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speaking and delivering their

best in business and on the stage.

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I'm John Ball speaker.

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Stand up and your guide on the

journey to speaking success.

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Very happy to, welcome to

the show today, Rob Noel.

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Rob Noel: Thank you very much, John.

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John: I, I've been looking forward

to speaking to you because it's not

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very often that I get speech writing

experts onto the show, and you have,

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you have some real credentials in

terms of speech writing, which,

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which we will get to no doubt, but I.

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I'd like to start things off with a

question I often ask my ask my guests,

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which is whether you have an opinion, a

point of view, or some whether there's

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something you often find yourself saying

that you don't hear other people saying

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very often, or that it's maybe a bit

counter to what the general consensus is.

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Rob Noel: well, you're

starting with a tough one.

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you know, I, I.

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I'm a speech writer.

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and so I know a lot of speech writers

and one opinion that I have, that

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certainly goes against the green is

that I think it's sometimes better

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to never write your speech at all.

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I think it's sometimes better to,

you, you certainly want your speech

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to sound as if it was never written,

so it can be written in advance, but

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you don't want it to sound that way.

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You don't wanna seem like

you're reading a speech.

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and so I think that's certainly

contrarian in my field because, we're

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all about writing our speeches down.

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but that's not always true.

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I mean, certainly if you're the president

of the country or a CEO going on a uh,

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John: Who knows what you'll end up talking

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Rob Noel: something, you wanna

know exactly what you're gonna say.

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John: You'd hope so.

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Rob Noel: alright.

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John: You'd hope so.

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Yeah.

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I can certainly see in, in terms

of political speech writing

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particularly that generally we, we

expect that, those speeches are like,

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read off auto cues or, or notes.

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And, for the most part, at least

they're, they're pretty well planned

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and, and scooped, or at least

we expect them to be that way.

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Rob Noel: Well, but but only

in certain circumstances.

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I

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mean, I think that's,

that's changed recently.

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Like you look at Trump, you

know, he certainly loves to go

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up without a script and riff.

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I think that's one of the things that

makes him effective is that he holds

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an audience's attention because you

never know what he is gonna say next.

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when he's reading a

speech, people get bored.

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and that's true for a lot of people.

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But if you're giving a state of

the union, you don't have a choice.

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if you're giving, you know, a,

a speech on a topic you're not

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familiar with, you have to read it.

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John: The stuff that you just have

to make sure that you say right.

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Rob Noel: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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John: so one, one of the things when,

when we first chatted, one of the things

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I thought was very, gonna be potentially

interesting for us because I think most of

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my audience, maybe even all the audience,

really are probably not going to be in

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the area of political speech writing.

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I, I could be wrong.

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I, I hope somebody will

correct me on that, as to.

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What their points of crossover might be

or what the relevance of, somebody with

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your experience would be as a speech

writer outside of the political arena.

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Would you say it's, much the same,

really, the, the principles and everything

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else the same, or is there a particular

style that you tend to find more in the

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political world than not in other areas?

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Rob Noel: There are areas of overlap,

and then there's areas that are

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distinct depending on the discipline

that you're in when you're a speaker.

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in politics, just like in

everything now, it's all about

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stories, all about storytelling.

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You see this all the time with

politicians, it's, they all have

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an origin story, a reason that

they're running for office, a reason

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that they have the convictions

and opinions that they do have.

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And telling that story to voters is a

big part of what makes them, you know,

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what makes their brand as a politician.

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and then the ways that you structure

speeches are often very similar

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across the private sector, the public

sector, you know, influence coaches,

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have a way of speaking that's very

similar to TED Talks and that can.

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Have a lot of crossover into politics.

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So we can talk about all

of that in, in more depth.

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But then there's, there's also plenty

of, plenty of areas that don't overlap.

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I mean, when you're talking

policy as a politician or as a

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government leader, you're getting

into different modes of persuasion

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than what you would want to use.

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you know, as a more in the coaching area,

which is I think what you specialize in.

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but tell me if I'm wrong there.

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Are you,

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what do you.

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John: can, I can actually see, I can

actually see what you're saying and,

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and I'm curious as to whether you

would think the, the things that make

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somebody a good political communicator

would be the same things that make

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someone a good communicator in general.

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Rob Noel: Yeah, I think that what, what

you see with people who are really great

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is that they, they're, they're original.

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They're totally themselves.

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that's true of any form of art and

speaking as an art, much more than it's

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a science, although we can do our best as

practitioners to reduce it to a science.

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But, really it, it's an art.

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And so when you bring your own

flare to it and you have your own

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way of being that is confident and.

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Distinct.

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that's what captures attention

and what makes you, I think,

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effective as a speaker.

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so there's that, but there's also,

I think, just, just love of it

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that, that I see in really great

politicians and really great speakers.

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So people who just, they're

there because they like to do it.

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They're energized by.

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Sort of plunging into a crowd and

speaking, you know, in front of

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big audiences, gives them that sort

of, that energy that you need, I

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think, to be really good at it.

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So those are two, two areas.

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John: I've, I've always thought

that since, since ancient times,

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the ability to speak effectively

has been one of the, if not the top

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leadership tool or ability that you,

that you really need to have do it.

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It, I still think that's the case.

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But do, do you also agree with that?

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Do you think that's still one of

the key things, like a, a good

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leader has to be able to have that

level of communication ability?

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Rob Noel: I think there,

there's a lot of truth to that.

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Certainly the leaders that

we know the best throughout

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history are great speakers.

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When you think of Churchill

or, even Caesar, even though

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we have no videos of him,

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you know, we have his quotes and

know him to be a great orator.

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and that's true of Kennedy and, and

others, you know, US presidents.

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But then I think there's

also other kinds of leaders.

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There's, you know, if you think of

a company, there's your CEO, which

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probably needs to be a good speaker,

but then you're, there's your COO,

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there's your, you know, head of HR

that are all good at different things.

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That's true in government as well.

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You know, you've got your

legislators, your statesmen.

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That speaking isn't as

integral to what they do.

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although it's certainly still

useful if you can be good at it.

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but we certainly ha it can, can

point to many examples of great

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leaders who aren't great speakers.

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and that also gets back to, I

think just, just being yourself.

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Like you look at the difference between,

Steve Jobs and, someone like, Bill Gates,

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you know, take Bill Gates, for example.

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So this is someone who's more shy,

not as comfortable as a speaker.

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A little more, reserved, but

still a very effective CEO,

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John: Yeah, absolutely.

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I, it's, it's interesting that, you know,

even at those examples you give, I mean,

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people refer to talks and communication.

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They nearly always refer to

Steve Jobs over for Bill Gates.

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Right.

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So in interesting, because I, I think.

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The way he presented stuff was, was kind

of special and different and, and very

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connected with people in, in a unique way.

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And I said, that's what, that's what a

good speaking has, has the power to do.

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And do, do you think, well, in terms

of a good speech, and out outside, I

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mean outside of the political arena,

whether that's in corporate or any

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other area, what, what do you think are

the components that really have to be

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there for it to be a top notch speech.

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Rob Noel: well, I'd be interested in,

in your take on that too, with the

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types of people that you work with.

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But there has to be what I call

a threat of steel that connects

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the entire speech together.

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So it's one single organizing idea.

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Sometimes it can be as simple as a phrase.

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With Obama, it was, yes, we can, you

know, with MLK, it was, I have a dream.

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That connected, that, that speech and

the different sections of it together.

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but more often it's gonna be

a sort of thesis statement.

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One thing that you're arguing a point, an

insight, and you want it to be simple and

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you want it to be powerful, not obvious.

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and you're stating that at the beginning,

and then you're referring back to it

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constantly throughout your speech.

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So that's the, the

thread of steel, was key.

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I mean, you've gotta have.

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Attention grabbers all

throughout a speech.

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So that's another area.

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Attention spans have never been

shorter than, than they are today

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because we've never had more content

competing for our attention at

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any given moment than we do now.

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and you're not just competing with

other speakers, you're competing with

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Netflix and Instagram, and algorithms

that are designed to hold attention.

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as a speaker.

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There's so many different ways

that people can spend their time

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besides listening to you and even

when you have a captive audience.

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There's no such thing

as a captive audience.

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John: Not anymore.

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Rob Noel: wander to whatever, whatever

they want to be thinking about dinner

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or, what they're gonna do that night.

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So holding intention is critical in speech

writing and stories are a way to do that.

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rhetorical questions are a way to do that.

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Shocking statistics.

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there's all sorts of different devices.

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John: Yeah.

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I think I agree on how important it's

to hold people's attention and, and.

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One of the things that I will usually

say to clients and, and in general

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conversation as well, is how, how

essential the entertainment factor is as

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a speaker these days that you have to be,

You don't have to come out and be like tat

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dancing and juggling and all those things,

but you know, you do need to have some

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level of entertainment in the way that

you deliver because dry delivery makes it

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harder for people to stay tuned into you.

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the humorous delivery, or you know,

the lack of stories or stories that

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don't really go anywhere or make sense.

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It's like there's all

stuff that will get people.

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Tuning out.

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But this entertainment factor is

that I, I feel like, you know,

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people often call speaking,

professional speaking, particularly

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outside of the political arena.

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More of a field of edutainment is like,

it's educational and it's entertaining.

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And so we've got the portmanteau of those

two words together quite commonly used.

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But I do think that that's.

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Critical and not addressed enough when

I still see so many speakers, trying to

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just pack information into their talks.

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And, you know, some, a lot of people I

work with have books out, for example,

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and they're trying to condense the

content of a book into a 45 minute

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Rob Noel: Right, not a good idea.

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John: Yeah.

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Gem, generally not a good idea.

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So I think, you know.

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It's similar to what you're saying,

but not maybe just different, maybe

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the same thing in different words, but

but maybe some differences as well.

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Rob Noel: Yeah, I think that, I, I

sometimes compare it to, if you have

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a dog at home and you're ever trying

to give them a medication, you're

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gonna wrap the, the pill in a piece of

bread or in a, in a piece of Turkey or

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whatever.

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you've got your.

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Your medication, your, your, spinach

that the audience needs to eat, and

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then you need to package it in a way

that's gonna have that entertainment,

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that's gonna make it digestible and,

it's gonna make it go down easier.

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And so that's the entertainment

that you need to bring to a talk.

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And you really, you, you're not gonna

get 'em to take that message that you

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need 'em to take if you don't have

the entertainment, side of it as well.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I, I feel that.

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One of the things that, especially in

the corporate world, tends to suck all

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the joy out of speaking is this idea of

that being funny or being, entertaining

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or even being particularly, emotional

and storytelling and things like that.

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You know, you're supposed to

keep on this sort of level.

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Level playing field emotionally, where,

this is the professional way to show up.

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You're supposed to look and

sound like a professional.

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And we have this weird concept that

that's what a professional looks like.

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Someone who doesn't get overly emotional,

somebody who doesn't, you crack jokes

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all the time or whatever else is

like, who's supposed to be business

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focused, unemotional, you know, all,

all, all those kinds of things that we

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associate with, still to some degree

associate with business leadership.

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Rob Noel: yes.

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I think there's a balance to be

walked, particularly depending on the

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role that you're in of bringing your.

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Your sort of private personality

to, to the public face

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that you present to people.

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and that's, I think maybe back to

being an art rather than a science.

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I don't know exactly how, how to

articulate what that balance is.

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but there's, you kind of know it

when you see it, of when something

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crosses from being, oh, this is

relatable and engaging and funny.

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To then crosses over to being

inappropriate or awkward in some way.

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so I, I think great leaders sort of

know that instinctively and other

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people need to sort, experiment a

little bit in order to find what

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works and what doesn't for them.

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John: I, I particularly liked what

you were saying before about the iron.

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I, I, was it iron thread?

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You said

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Rob Noel: Thread of steel

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John: thread of steel.

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Sorry, steel close.

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I was close.

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the thread of steel running

through this, like, I think I see

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that more in standup comedy acts

than I do in a lot of talks that,

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Rob Noel: how, so like,

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like what's an example from standup?

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John: I, I, it's hard to think of a

specific comedian as an example here,

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but just, just as, to more generalize

it, that a lot of an act will be,

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I say it's from, from my own act,

but other comedians I see as well,

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a lot of it'll be threaded through.

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It'll be on a theme.

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On a particular theme.

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This is what you're talking about,

but there'll be these callbacks.

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Callbacks to something you said

earlier of being back or maybe

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even a catchphrase as one.

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I think people are a little

afraid to use catchphrases.

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or the things that we maybe would

seem like a catchphrase, like you were

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mentioning, you know, Martin Luther

King or Winston Church or whoever,

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who had those phrases that would be

in their speeches that made them very

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memorable with the bits that people do

remember from them, that I think people,

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people shy away from them and

don't use them nearly enough.

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Probably more, people do use them more,

more likely in political communication,

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but I think those things are still very

effective in any kind of communication.

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They're effective in, in a comedy act.

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They're effective in a keynote.

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They're, they're effective

pretty much anywhere.

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Rob Noel: I know exactly

what you're talking about.

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I've seen this in comedy where,

where someone will tell a joke and

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then go on to the next topic that's

seemingly unrelated, and then that

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topic will end with a, a callback.

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Or a reference to the previous joke.

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Yeah,

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there's something about

that I think for audiences.

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It's a, something about the way

our brains work that we like that,

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that sort of symmetry enclosure.

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and that is a speech writing

1 0 1 trick of bringing a

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callback from your introduction.

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Back to the conclusion.

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So you refer back, some people

call it the circular ending.

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Some people call it call

back in your ending.

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but it, yeah, starting with a story

or an anecdote, and then in the end

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you're, you're circling back to it

in a way that brings closure and, and

306

: 00:15:55

creates a bookend to the speech and

the idea that you're communicating.

307

: 00:15:59

It's very powerful.

308

: 00:16:00

John: Yeah, you, you've been a, a

speech writer for some, some known

309

: 00:16:05

political figures, and you, I know you

have a lot of great experience there.

310

: 00:16:09

And, for, for our audience, they might

be interested to know some of the

311

: 00:16:13

people who you've written, written

for, who they might be familiar with.

312

: 00:16:17

Rob Noel: Sure.

313

: 00:16:17

Well, my first speechwriting job

was for Marco Rubio in the Senate.

314

: 00:16:22

he's of course now Secretary of State.

315

: 00:16:25

But, I started with him in the Senate and

then he ran for president in: 2016

316

: 00:16:29

was his speech writer for that as well.

317

: 00:16:32

he had never had a speech writer before,

318

: 00:16:34

John: Oh.

319

: 00:16:34

Rob Noel: He's had, you

know, several since.

320

: 00:16:37

But, that was a learning experience

for him and for me, to, to kind of

321

: 00:16:41

figure out how to have that mind meld.

322

: 00:16:44

With another person, and, and, you

know, help them be their best self.

323

: 00:16:48

Sometimes I felt like I,

I didn't get that right.

324

: 00:16:51

sometimes I felt like I used the

phrase like, killing the Mockingbird.

325

: 00:16:54

He was such an amazing extemporaneous

speaker that he never needed a writer.

326

: 00:16:58

And then once he had a writer,

he was sometimes felt wooden

327

: 00:17:02

on a script, or it felt like it

took away what made him special.

328

: 00:17:05

But I think as we continued in that

relationship, we both got better at

329

: 00:17:09

it and, and certainly learned a lot.

330

: 00:17:11

After that, I went to the US Chamber of

Commerce and I wrote for Tom Donahue, who,

331

: 00:17:17

was a bit of an institution in Washington.

332

: 00:17:19

He actually passed away last year,

but I, he remained a client of mine.

333

: 00:17:23

up until the very end.

334

: 00:17:24

He had been in that role as CEO of the

chamber for about 20 years, and so he.

335

: 00:17:30

Worked with presidents of every party.

336

: 00:17:33

going back to, you know, Bill

clinton or I think maybe before

337

: 00:17:36

and, was just an incredible guy,

but very different from Rubio.

338

: 00:17:40

He had, he was sort of, Irish Catholic,

Brooklyn born, tough as nails.

339

: 00:17:46

Sort of never kind of used any, emotion

or pathos too much in his speech as,

340

: 00:17:51

it was, it was much more kind of hard

fact-based, so very different from Rubio.

341

: 00:17:56

then from there I went to

the, to the State Department.

342

: 00:17:58

I wrote for Mike Pompeo, who

was the secretary of state.

343

: 00:18:02

and, that was a great experience too.

344

: 00:18:04

I mean, he was incredibly,

I respected him a lot.

345

: 00:18:07

He was from, you know, had been

top of his class in West Point.

346

: 00:18:10

He had gone to Harvard.

347

: 00:18:11

He had led a tank

battalion in the Cold War.

348

: 00:18:14

he had been a business leader,

had been, head of the CIA and then

349

: 00:18:18

had gone to the State Department.

350

: 00:18:20

So incredible resume and person to

get to work with and learn from.

351

: 00:18:24

in the process of writing for him,

and of course got to travel and all

352

: 00:18:27

that fun stuff and that job as well.

353

: 00:18:31

John: I, I'm curious, I, I, I

think may, maybe the listener will

354

: 00:18:34

be somewhat curious on this as

well, but, if you can give us some

355

: 00:18:37

insight into what that is like.

356

: 00:18:41

In what way do, how, what way do you

need to get to know people to be able to

357

: 00:18:45

write for them and to be able to write in

a way that's gonna sound like it's them

358

: 00:18:49

and, and what, and what's the point at

which you kind of feel or get the sense

359

: 00:18:53

that you've got, you've got things right.

360

: 00:18:55

You've got their voice, you've

got the right kind of style

361

: 00:18:58

for them in their speeches.

362

: 00:19:02

Rob Noel: I mean, I sometimes compare it

to, to character writing in a, in a book.

363

: 00:19:06

If you've ever tried to write a

novel, or, or any sort of creative

364

: 00:19:09

writing, you know that you have to.

365

: 00:19:11

To sort of, put your mind into

the, the character's head and

366

: 00:19:15

understand the way they see the world

and the way they look at things.

367

: 00:19:19

and so getting to know that person, having

compassion for them and, and interest in

368

: 00:19:23

them, I I is certainly really important.

369

: 00:19:26

And that's one of the hardest things to do

when you're young and just starting out.

370

: 00:19:31

You get into speech writing and you

see these people as larger than life,

371

: 00:19:34

but they aren't, they're just people.

372

: 00:19:35

you come to learn that there's just as

much diversity, in terms of personality

373

: 00:19:40

at the top as there is at any other level.

374

: 00:19:43

And, so getting to know the unique

personality of the principle that

375

: 00:19:46

you're writing for, is really important.

376

: 00:19:49

It's ideal to get to spend time with them,

but you don't always have that luxury.

377

: 00:19:53

you know, did with, with Rubio

did not as much with Pompeo.

378

: 00:19:57

He was just too busy, too scheduled.

379

: 00:19:59

and so getting, you know,

one-on-one time with him was just

380

: 00:20:02

not something that we often did.

381

: 00:20:04

But, you can substitute for that in other

ways and sometimes we'll, transcribe

382

: 00:20:08

interviews or unscripted, appearances like

podcasts, you know, exactly like this.

383

: 00:20:15

And you get a sense of the way the

person organizes their thoughts, the way

384

: 00:20:18

their speech has a kind of cadence to it

that's like a fingerprint unique to them.

385

: 00:20:22

so you can pick up on those things

that word choices, the way it words

386

: 00:20:26

that they do use and come back to

a lot and others that they don't.

387

: 00:20:29

So all of those are, are tricks,

but really it starts with, with

388

: 00:20:32

understanding and, caring about the

person and the, I think the role of a

389

: 00:20:36

speech writer is kind of secretarial.

390

: 00:20:38

You know, you're, you're in a service

role to an individual and, and you

391

: 00:20:42

have to block everything else out.

392

: 00:20:43

You're not in a, you're not

in a role to an organization.

393

: 00:20:47

You know, you're, you know, your, your

fidelity is to that one person, and

394

: 00:20:50

often speaking is very vulnerable.

395

: 00:20:53

People are nerv.

396

: 00:20:54

E even accomplished, people are

nervous going in front of crowds.

397

: 00:20:58

They, they are very particular

about the way they come off.

398

: 00:21:02

And so you have to have the

compassion to want that person to

399

: 00:21:05

be and feel like their best self.

400

: 00:21:07

And, and you're the person

tasked with making that happen.

401

: 00:21:12

John: So, so one thing that, that may be

particularly relevant to add to that for

402

: 00:21:16

people is that something, so now there are

people who will hire speech writers, not,

403

: 00:21:21

not in the political area, but to help

them with keynotes and the like as well.

404

: 00:21:25

and so you wanna make sure, I guess

you wanna make sure that your voice

405

: 00:21:29

is, is still coming through, but do

you think that with a good enough

406

: 00:21:34

speech anyone could deliver it?

407

: 00:21:36

Or do you think speeches do need to be

tailored to the person delivering them.

408

: 00:21:42

Rob Noel: They have to be tailored

to the person delivering them, and

409

: 00:21:45

they also have to be practiced.

410

: 00:21:47

I mean the, the very best speakers, I, I

mentioned Rubio, he's an example of this.

411

: 00:21:52

If you go back to early in his

career and you look at speeches that

412

: 00:21:56

were never written, he would maybe

jot out a few notes on a legal pad

413

: 00:22:00

page before and he would go up and

give it and it would be beautiful.

414

: 00:22:03

He could bring people to tears.

415

: 00:22:04

And then, you could take

that same exact speech.

416

: 00:22:08

You could transcribe it and give it

to him, print it out on a piece of

417

: 00:22:11

paper, and it would be half as good

or, or or less because he's reading

418

: 00:22:18

it because it's not, he hasn't put the

practice into delivering from a script.

419

: 00:22:23

And then there are other people like

Obama, who was extraordinarily gifted

420

: 00:22:28

at delivering from a script so he could

take, the speech that was written.

421

: 00:22:32

He had never read it before.

422

: 00:22:33

You could put it into a prompter and he

could hit every single line, every mark.

423

: 00:22:38

He could make the audience feel exactly

what they were supposed to feel.

424

: 00:22:42

That's a gift in and of itself, but

often those circles don't overlap.

425

: 00:22:45

You know, the, you have the gift of

speaking, but you don't have the gift

426

: 00:22:49

of performing a speech that's written.

427

: 00:22:52

So, both of those have to be practiced

and built up as independent, skill sets.

428

: 00:22:57

John: Yeah, I, I think that's a

really important thing for anyone

429

: 00:22:59

to take away from this conversation.

430

: 00:23:01

because there are times where we might, we

might think about, either being the speech

431

: 00:23:05

writer for someone else or, or hiring

somebody to write the speech for us.

432

: 00:23:09

As a, as someone in the political

world, I'm, I'm guessing you have a

433

: 00:23:14

reasonable knowledge of rhetoric and,

the, the whole principles behind that.

434

: 00:23:19

and I think we, it's something we tend

to see probably more in, in the political

435

: 00:23:24

and legal world more than anywhere

else, but those tools are not the sole

436

: 00:23:30

propriety of, of those, those areas.

437

: 00:23:33

And, and I wonder because

I think, I think a lot of.

438

: 00:23:35

a lot of people who I, you know, my

contemporaries in coaching, people who are

439

: 00:23:40

speakers don't ever cover these things.

440

: 00:23:43

Some completely unaware of them.

441

: 00:23:46

And, and I wonder what you feel that

the general relevance of, of rhetoric

442

: 00:23:51

rhetorical tools is, in, in the more

general board of keynote speaking.

443

: 00:23:59

Rob Noel: Yeah, I, I think this is when

I'm actually a teacher of, speech writing.

444

: 00:24:04

I, I'm a professor, at a, at a

college here in dc and I have found it

445

: 00:24:10

difficult to know exactly how much to

emphasize these like ancient rhetorical

446

: 00:24:14

techniques, how relevant are they today?

447

: 00:24:17

and I think, you know, they're

the easiest thing to teach.

448

: 00:24:21

But there's sometimes overemphasized

or students end up getting stuck on

449

: 00:24:26

them and feeling like they have to be

filtering them into their speeches,

450

: 00:24:31

when really you don't see 'em crop up

all the time anymore because speeches

451

: 00:24:35

are just so different now than they

were, in the BC era, you know, ancient

452

: 00:24:40

Greece or, or wherever they came from.

453

: 00:24:42

But, I think one area that they're

particularly useful is if you're

454

: 00:24:46

trying to come up with memorable lines.

455

: 00:24:50

Lines that are gonna stick, lines that

are gonna sound like they, are important.

456

: 00:24:55

Like they could be, you know,

tattooed or put on a bumper sticker.

457

: 00:24:59

Those are, are very learnable, almost

sort of formulas of, of phraseology that

458

: 00:25:06

you can teach and you can learn them.

459

: 00:25:07

and they're, once you learn them,

they're actually not that diff difficult.

460

: 00:25:10

So an example is, Chiasmus,

which is repeating similar

461

: 00:25:16

concepts in in reverse order.

462

: 00:25:18

So you see this with Kennedy, ask

not what your country can do for you,

463

: 00:25:22

but what you can do for your country.

464

: 00:25:24

So the, the first clause of the sentence

ask not what your country can do for

465

: 00:25:28

you, is then just repeated in reverse

order what you can do for your country.

466

: 00:25:33

at the end.

467

: 00:25:33

It sounds extremely profound and

it is, but it's not as hard to

468

: 00:25:37

come up with as you might think.

469

: 00:25:39

The idea behind it has to be.

470

: 00:25:41

It has to be big, but the actual

writing of that phrase is, is not

471

: 00:25:45

that difficult Once you have the idea.

472

: 00:25:47

Another example is like, you forget

what you wanna remember, but you

473

: 00:25:50

remember what you wanna forget.

474

: 00:25:51

I think that was Cormick McCarthy,

you know, but that's a, a

475

: 00:25:53

great example of chiasmus too.

476

: 00:25:57

I can, I can go on.

477

: 00:25:57

But that, that sort of thing is,

very, I think, helpful when you're

478

: 00:26:01

trying to write memorable lines.

479

: 00:26:03

John: Yeah, the I and i, I think

that is a key element that I think

480

: 00:26:08

often gets skipped in a lot of talks.

481

: 00:26:10

I, I can't even think how many

talks I've listened to, that don't

482

: 00:26:15

have those memorable lines in.

483

: 00:26:17

At all.

484

: 00:26:18

And when, when you, when you, as you're

saying, when you at least know how

485

: 00:26:22

to construct those, you can probably

make sure at least one line in your

486

: 00:26:27

torque is particularly memorable

and is gonna stand out for people.

487

: 00:26:31

It's like, all right, it will hook

in the brain and, and stay with them.

488

: 00:26:34

and chiasmus is a, is a

great example of that.

489

: 00:26:37

I, I know there are a number of.

490

: 00:26:39

Probably not all the rhetorical tools that

we need to know and use, but there are

491

: 00:26:42

some that probably would be helpful for

us in general in, in our speech writing.

492

: 00:26:48

One of the particular areas that I think,

often gets underplayed and, and under

493

: 00:26:53

misused as well, would be, metaphor.

494

: 00:26:57

I wonder particularly what, what

you, what your take is on, how to

495

: 00:27:01

use or the right way to use metaphor.

496

: 00:27:04

In, in a speech, in speech

writing and, and in delivery.

497

: 00:27:09

Rob Noel: metaphor can be very powerful.

498

: 00:27:11

They're difficult, I

think, to come up with.

499

: 00:27:13

so unlike these lines where

you learn the formula and then

500

: 00:27:16

you can, you can replicate it

pretty easily, a really original.

501

: 00:27:21

Metaphor, something that just, just

works and clicks with a universal

502

: 00:27:27

audience, is, is really tough.

503

: 00:27:29

But if you've got one, they drive

home a point extremely effectively.

504

: 00:27:34

I'm curious what you're, what

you're, thinking of here when you

505

: 00:27:36

ask this question, like, do you

have examples of metaphor that

506

: 00:27:41

you found powerful or.

507

: 00:27:42

John: Look, I, I, I rem I'm remembering

a conversation I had with, with another

508

: 00:27:47

political speech writer, Simon Lancaster.

509

: 00:27:49

and one of the things that he was saying

about Metaphor was about how, If you have

510

: 00:27:54

a particular theme to your talk or your

speech, if it's, if it's like we need to

511

: 00:27:59

batten down the hatches, there's a, you

probably want to run through a metaphor.

512

: 00:28:03

I, I forget which ones he exactly he used

now, but you might use like, a, a weather

513

: 00:28:07

metaphor or, and there's certain speeches

where you might want to use fighting

514

: 00:28:11

metaphors and, and things like that.

515

: 00:28:13

The, the, the language you

use is very particular.

516

: 00:28:15

But he said what often

ends up happening is.

517

: 00:28:18

People just pull in all sorts of different

metaphors you say, whereas it really, in

518

: 00:28:23

his opinion, at least, it was important

that the same theme of metaphors runs

519

: 00:28:29

through, that kind of principle of speech.

520

: 00:28:32

Whether there's, whether there's

other stuff gets incorporated

521

: 00:28:34

or not, is less, less important.

522

: 00:28:36

That is that the style or the reason

for delivering the speech might inform

523

: 00:28:40

the kind of overall metaphorical devices

that you want to insert into your talk.

524

: 00:28:46

Rob Noel: Yes.

525

: 00:28:47

I mean, I think the, What he's probably

warning against there is, is mixed

526

: 00:28:51

metaphor, which is a big no-no, it's

a, a sign of sort of lazy writing.

527

: 00:28:55

but having, having a single

metaphor, a metaphor could, could,

528

: 00:29:00

could be your thread of steel.

529

: 00:29:02

I've seen it used, before, and there's

a metaphor that, I saw recently

530

: 00:29:07

referring to, to modern western

civilization as a, as a cut flower.

531

: 00:29:13

And so the, the idea being that, the

flower is severed from the roots that

532

: 00:29:18

that originally nourished it, and it's

gonna hold its shape for a little while,

533

: 00:29:22

but eventually it's gonna wither and die.

534

: 00:29:23

And so that, that cut flower.

535

: 00:29:26

Was used as a, a, like

an organizing device all

536

: 00:29:29

throughout the speech

and referred back to.

537

: 00:29:31

So that's a, that's very powerful.

538

: 00:29:33

But again, that's, that's hard to

come up with, you know, cut flower.

539

: 00:29:35

That's brilliant, brilliant metaphor.

540

: 00:29:37

but, but a really good one,

and there's so many kind of

541

: 00:29:40

cheap metaphors out there too.

542

: 00:29:41

And, and ones that can border on cliche,

people talk about self licking ice cream

543

: 00:29:47

cones and things like that, that are

544

: 00:29:48

just like, and you start to hear

'em over and over again and they

545

: 00:29:52

sound, cheesy or, or, you know, lame.

546

: 00:29:54

So I, I think if you can do it well, and

you've got a good one, then go for it.

547

: 00:29:59

but, but otherwise I would,

I would use them sparingly

548

: 00:30:01

and certainly not, mix them.

549

: 00:30:03

John: and, and metaphor or, or or other,

what are some of the speech writing

550

: 00:30:10

cliches that you often come across

that you would suggest people avoid?

551

: 00:30:20

Rob Noel: I don't know.

552

: 00:30:21

I mean, you know, a really great.

553

: 00:30:23

Really great speakers.

554

: 00:30:24

The ones you're will, will, will

never use the the bald faced kind of

555

: 00:30:29

cliches that you hear in other places.

556

: 00:30:31

But I mean, one that comes to mind

is when a speaker comes out and they

557

: 00:30:34

say, how's everyone doing today?

558

: 00:30:37

And they say, oh, we

can do better than that.

559

: 00:30:39

How's everyone doing today?

560

: 00:30:40

You know, you hear this kind of

thing trying to rev the audience up,

561

: 00:30:42

but it's like, oh my gosh, I feel

like I'm at a school assembly,

562

: 00:30:45

you know, in, in middle school.

563

: 00:30:47

that sort of thing is, is just cheesy and

kind of, implies that the person is, is an

564

: 00:30:52

novice, doesn't know what they're doing.

565

: 00:30:54

Then I think there are types of, of

speeches like TED Talks where the, there

566

: 00:30:59

is such a tried and true formula to them.

567

: 00:31:03

Like they, they'll use a cold, open

story, so they'll just come out and

568

: 00:31:08

with no context launch into a story.

569

: 00:31:11

that has become overused and tired, I

think, to the point of cliche and some of

570

: 00:31:16

the structures that you see in Ted Talks.

571

: 00:31:18

now whether the average person

notices that or cares, I'm not

572

: 00:31:21

sure, but, I, I do as a speaker.

573

: 00:31:24

John: Yeah, it's, it's, it's always

interesting to me how, how many people

574

: 00:31:28

who, who come to me either they've done

TEDx nearly, I, I only know a few people

575

: 00:31:32

who've actually done proper TED talks.

576

: 00:31:34

but, more either they've done

TEDx or they want to do TEDx.

577

: 00:31:38

And, and, and I'm just not convinced

of the value of it anymore.

578

: 00:31:42

and may maybe, maybe you are

579

: 00:31:45

Rob Noel: Why not?

580

: 00:31:46

John: vote.

581

: 00:31:46

Because, because I think that they have,

I, my opinion is that they've cheapened,

582

: 00:31:52

cheapened, their brand is, by a lot

of the TEDx talks that have been able

583

: 00:31:56

to, because they're not really done.

584

: 00:31:59

They're not, they're not decided

from a central body anymore.

585

: 00:32:01

They're decided from the people who put

on, who get the licenses to put on the

586

: 00:32:05

TEDx events, and so they can end up with

topics that you would never see in a Ted.

587

: 00:32:10

Talk or you'd never see from the

central organization, some of them

588

: 00:32:14

complete pseudoscience, religious rub,

rubbish, you know, stuff that, would

589

: 00:32:19

never make it into a professional.

590

: 00:32:21

Keynote or, or TED talk presentation,

that has been allowed to be, a cons,

591

: 00:32:27

even conspiracy theories and stuff

that has made its way into TEDx.

592

: 00:32:31

I feel that those are the stuff and

there's these, these sort of cliched

593

: 00:32:34

structures that people use and people

have made businesses outta teaching

594

: 00:32:38

people how to do them as well, to

do, to deliver those TED talks in.

595

: 00:32:43

For me, it feels like they, they've

cheapened their brand, but when I talk to

596

: 00:32:47

people, I, I, as you said, I feel, I feel

like most people are unaware of that, so,

597

: 00:32:51

so it is maybe like a, some people are

gonna have that sensation, but the wider

598

: 00:32:56

world probably is, is ignorant to it.

599

: 00:33:00

Rob Noel: Yeah, no, I know what you mean.

600

: 00:33:01

I, I think I saw a TED talk that was a.

601

: 00:33:03

About how to, how to wash your

hands and use paper towels.

602

: 00:33:06

It's like,

603

: 00:33:07

we need this.

604

: 00:33:09

yeah.

605

: 00:33:10

Well, John, I was thinking about your

first time we talked, you were talking

606

: 00:33:14

about your interest in hidden influence

and different kinds of ways that that's

607

: 00:33:20

used and how influence can hide itself.

608

: 00:33:23

So I'm curious to maybe

talk a little about that.

609

: 00:33:26

John: Yeah.

610

: 00:33:27

Yeah,

611

: 00:33:27

Rob Noel: found, what are

your big, takeaways from that

612

: 00:33:29

research that you've done?

613

: 00:33:31

John: Oh boy.

614

: 00:33:32

I, I think that, my, my, my first

insight into that was, reading a book

615

: 00:33:38

about marketing that was really well,

about how the unconscious levers

616

: 00:33:43

are at play in a lot of marketing.

617

: 00:33:45

that stuff is being designed to get you

to feel a certain way or, tug certain

618

: 00:33:50

emotions or respond to certain things.

619

: 00:33:52

I think, you know.

620

: 00:33:53

Clarity came further with

reading Cialdini's books and

621

: 00:33:57

other books since then as well.

622

: 00:33:59

Understanding that there, that there

are just these things that because

623

: 00:34:03

we so often mono automatic, they'll

just trigger something, a certain

624

: 00:34:06

way of thinking or a certain natural

response or, a certain responsiveness

625

: 00:34:11

to other people that, we can

absolutely use them to, to our benefit.

626

: 00:34:17

And so there are, these are the kinds

of tools that con artists naturally use.

627

: 00:34:24

They don't necessarily need to be

talking, they usually figure them out.

628

: 00:34:27

but the stuff that magicians

will often use them as well.

629

: 00:34:30

especially mentalists and, and just

that, just having this sense of

630

: 00:34:34

there's all these ways which we can

be not mind controlled really, but

631

: 00:34:38

manipulated and or led in certain

directions that we completely unaware of.

632

: 00:34:43

And seem like magic, but when you have

the awareness of them, I think there's a

633

: 00:34:48

level of control that sort of comes back.

634

: 00:34:50

it's one of the things that drove

me into, looking into, learning

635

: 00:34:54

more about cults and how cults

work, to understand how like.

636

: 00:34:58

Controlling the sort of information or

emotional control or behavior control

637

: 00:35:03

or those aspects that the more of

those you have, the more, the worse.

638

: 00:35:07

The cult is kind, but it's like

people can be maybe not completely

639

: 00:35:12

brainwashed, but to, to a point

where they can completely lose their

640

: 00:35:18

identity and, and lose themselves.

641

: 00:35:20

It's like the, these tools are tools.

642

: 00:35:24

They can be damaging and, but they can

also be empowering depending on how

643

: 00:35:28

they're being used and who's using them

644

: 00:35:30

Rob Noel: Do you remember any

of the tools in particular?

645

: 00:35:32

or did any of them stand out to you?

646

: 00:35:34

John: for, for cults or cini or

647

: 00:35:38

Rob Noel: either, I mean, just,

just ways that people wield this

648

: 00:35:42

magical power of hidden influence.

649

: 00:35:44

John: So, yeah.

650

: 00:35:45

well, a cult is an interesting one.

651

: 00:35:47

So, one, one of the techniques, of

cults and a cult can be a group,

652

: 00:35:52

and it can be one person as well.

653

: 00:35:53

But is this, this technique

called love bombing?

654

: 00:35:55

Have you heard about this before?

655

: 00:35:57

Rob Noel: is it sort of flattery.

656

: 00:36:00

John: Kind of, yeah.

657

: 00:36:01

So it's a bit like, oh yeah, you

feel like, oh, you are wonderful.

658

: 00:36:04

You are amazing.

659

: 00:36:05

All these compliments coming your way.

660

: 00:36:06

So yeah, it is kind of

buttering you up with flattery.

661

: 00:36:10

But you know, it might also be

hugs and physical affection.

662

: 00:36:14

It might also know, must be, Not just

telling you how wonderful you are,

663

: 00:36:17

but it could be gifts as well, and it

could be all sorts of things that just,

664

: 00:36:21

all the attention is coming to you.

665

: 00:36:23

You are, you are being bombed with

positive attention and, and that then

666

: 00:36:28

becomes this thing of like, it's giving

you this level of security and flattery

667

: 00:36:31

and attention that builds you up, but

it will be taken away at some point and

668

: 00:36:37

you're gonna feel like you want it back

because it was so nice when you had it.

669

: 00:36:41

And that actually pulls people in

because they kind of want to get that

670

: 00:36:44

back, but they're not gonna get it back.

671

: 00:36:45

Yeah.

672

: 00:36:46

Rob Noel: Creates like a addictive cycle.

673

: 00:36:49

Yeah.

674

: 00:36:50

John: Def definitely does that.

675

: 00:36:52

That's a very, very powerful

manipulative technique that, really

676

: 00:36:56

is sort of exclusive to sociopaths

and cults and, but in, in the

677

: 00:37:00

more general world of influence.

678

: 00:37:02

Even as something as simple as using

the word, because in a sentence,

679

: 00:37:06

this is from Cialdini's word.

680

: 00:37:08

can even if, even if the, because that

you say makes no sense, people respond to

681

: 00:37:13

the word, oh, could you do this for me?

682

: 00:37:15

Because they res they

respond pos more positively.

683

: 00:37:19

If you use that word, then if you

don't include it in your request.

684

: 00:37:23

Rob Noel: Oh, that's interesting.

685

: 00:37:25

Well, I'll have to think about that.

686

: 00:37:26

Yeah, maybe it's, it's something to

do with, the kind of cause and effect

687

: 00:37:29

and how people like that and, it.

688

: 00:37:32

John: This idea that there's a

justification there, even if the

689

: 00:37:34

justification is meaningless.

690

: 00:37:36

I think one example that sticks in my

brain from Gerald in was, they were

691

: 00:37:41

doing, they were doing testing this

on, people cutting the queue to make

692

: 00:37:44

copies when people still had to make

lots of copies in their offices and,

693

: 00:37:48

saying, oh, can I, can I cut in the.

694

: 00:37:51

I have to make copies.

695

: 00:37:52

It's like, well, so does everyone else.

696

: 00:37:54

It's like, but they're saying

even, even though the even though

697

: 00:37:57

the, because makes no sense.

698

: 00:37:59

You were giving a justification.

699

: 00:38:01

and people just say, all right.

700

: 00:38:02

Yeah.

701

: 00:38:02

Okay.

702

: 00:38:03

More often than not.

703

: 00:38:04

Yeah.

704

: 00:38:05

Rob Noel: It creates an illusion that

there's a logical reason behind what

705

: 00:38:07

you're doing, even if there isn't one.

706

: 00:38:10

Yeah, that's, that's really interesting.

707

: 00:38:12

I, I, I think that what we're

talking about here is sort of

708

: 00:38:16

the, the dark side of influence.

709

: 00:38:19

John: Oh, very much.

710

: 00:38:20

Rob Noel: but there are.

711

: 00:38:22

There's probably overlap with

the, the bright side of it too.

712

: 00:38:25

I mean, the way that leaders operate

and out in the open, good leaders

713

: 00:38:29

that we admire, it's still how do you

use, how, how are you tuned into the

714

: 00:38:35

psychology and the needs of people, and

channeling that into something good.

715

: 00:38:40

I mean, every great leader

throughout history, whether

716

: 00:38:43

it's Churchill or Lincoln, or

Martin Luther King has done that.

717

: 00:38:47

And, I think part of it, I, I like

the, there's this phrase that what's

718

: 00:38:51

most personal is most general.

719

: 00:38:53

Have you ever heard this?

720

: 00:38:54

John: I haven't.

721

: 00:38:55

Rob Noel: So, so basically the, the

things that we experience in our

722

: 00:38:59

lives that we think, well, no one else

would, would understand this or get

723

: 00:39:02

this, are actually, they capture very

general human experiences, that are

724

: 00:39:08

much more relatable than we think.

725

: 00:39:10

So we're, we're, we have much more common

with other people than we think we do.

726

: 00:39:14

And I've read about how great

leaders use that principle in their

727

: 00:39:18

speeches to both relate to audiences.

728

: 00:39:22

To help audiences find that common

purpose, that shared purpose

729

: 00:39:26

that then unites them towards

an action that, you know, moves

730

: 00:39:30

a country or a society forward.

731

: 00:39:32

so, so that's interesting.

732

: 00:39:35

I also think you, you and I have talked

about, this, how stories are more

733

: 00:39:40

powerful than statistics and data.

734

: 00:39:43

do, do you wanna tell a little bit

about what you've read in that regard?

735

: 00:39:48

John: this would, this would come down

to a lot, a lot of influence books

736

: 00:39:51

that I, that I read and it's, it'd

be hard to pinpoint some of it down.

737

: 00:39:54

I think 1, 1, 1 lady who he may or may not

be aware of, a lady called Lee Carter, she

738

: 00:39:59

often appears on, on, on Fox News, being

interviewed by Maria Barter, I think,

739

: 00:40:05

But, she wrote a book on influence a

while back, and I had her on the show

740

: 00:40:08

and, and, and in her book it was, it

there, there was, an interest, some,

741

: 00:40:12

some interesting elements coming up

about, really just about how emotions

742

: 00:40:17

are more important than logic and data.

743

: 00:40:20

Like ultimately, whilst some there

is some logic level of decision

744

: 00:40:25

making, most of the time it is, it

is ultimately this emotions that,

745

: 00:40:30

that make the decisions for people.

746

: 00:40:32

and I certainly, I've had that

with, when I've studied NLP

747

: 00:40:35

neurolinguistic programming and

things like that in the past as well.

748

: 00:40:37

And hypnosis, When they've done

experiments or research on people who,

749

: 00:40:42

you know, have specific, specific kinds of

brain damage that damage their emotional

750

: 00:40:46

center, or, people who've had like, that

surgery that splits the hemispheres,

751

: 00:40:51

Rob Noel: Yeah, heard about this.

752

: 00:40:53

John: Right.

753

: 00:40:53

that, they can still live pretty

much normal lives, but often,

754

: 00:40:58

often the ability, you know, for

the emotional centers damaged in

755

: 00:41:01

a particular way, the ability to

make decisions seems to go away.

756

: 00:41:06

They, they, they can't do it.

757

: 00:41:07

It's like, well, you know, you, you,

it's logic in itself generally isn't

758

: 00:41:10

enough for us to make our decisions.

759

: 00:41:14

Rob Noel: I, I, have definitely noticed

this, and I think the people probably

760

: 00:41:19

understand it intuitively that.

761

: 00:41:22

Statistics and data.

762

: 00:41:25

You, you almost feel like you're being

manipulated because it's like the, the,

763

: 00:41:28

I think this has been attributed to

Churchill, but I'm not sure if that's

764

: 00:41:31

it's, it's maybe, said by multiple

people, but it's like there's lies.

765

: 00:41:35

There's damn lies, and there's statistics.

766

: 00:41:37

John: Right.

767

: 00:41:38

Rob Noel: Statistics.

768

: 00:41:39

Every side of any argument has

statistics that support their side,

769

: 00:41:43

so people feel like the wolves

being pulled over their eyes when.

770

: 00:41:46

You're citing the kind of numbers to

them, but somehow we don't feel the

771

: 00:41:51

same way about stories and anecdotes.

772

: 00:41:53

and people will forget the three

points on policy from your speech,

773

: 00:41:58

but they'll remember the story, you

know, and, and how it made you feel.

774

: 00:42:01

And, I think back to one of the

first major speeches that I worked

775

: 00:42:06

on in my career was with Rubio.

776

: 00:42:08

he was giving the, the keynote

address at the RNC convention.

777

: 00:42:12

And he told the story of his parents.

778

: 00:42:15

And when he was a child, this was sort

of his origin story, as a politician.

779

: 00:42:19

And, his dad was a bartender

at Banquets, hotel Banquets.

780

: 00:42:23

so he would be in behind the mobile bar in

the back of the banquet, and he tells of

781

: 00:42:29

how he, Marco would be lang on the, couch.

782

: 00:42:34

He would hear his father come home

late at night after one of these,

783

: 00:42:38

you know, being out at a banquet

all night, bartend, attending bar,

784

: 00:42:42

and he says that he would remember

the keys jingling at the back door.

785

: 00:42:46

And years later after the speech,

people would come up to me and

786

: 00:42:49

they would say, oh, was that the.

787

: 00:42:51

We'd be talking about the speech they'd

say, was that the keys jingling speech?

788

: 00:42:55

So they remember that,

that vivid language.

789

: 00:42:59

And so using vivid language in stories is

the most effective tool of storytelling.

790

: 00:43:05

And vivid language can be defined as

anything that appeals to the five senses.

791

: 00:43:09

And so that one, you know,

appeals to audio, but it's

792

: 00:43:12

also very kind of original.

793

: 00:43:14

you don't hear that a lot.

794

: 00:43:15

It kind of evoking the keys jingling

at the door, but everyone knows.

795

: 00:43:18

What that is, it's a very personal,

but a very general back to what

796

: 00:43:22

I was saying earlier, device.

797

: 00:43:25

And so that was an early lesson for

me and kinda the power of storytelling

798

: 00:43:29

in a vivid language to drive it home.

799

: 00:43:31

John: I, I think you only have to look at

the, all of the world's major religions.

800

: 00:43:35

They're, they're built on

storytelling more than anything else.

801

: 00:43:38

They're, they're not, they're not,

halls of academia for mathematics.

802

: 00:43:42

They, they are stories.

803

: 00:43:44

There are stories that connect with

people in, in emotional levels and that

804

: 00:43:49

have particular meanings for, for people.

805

: 00:43:52

sometimes many different people deriving

different meanings, even from the

806

: 00:43:55

same stories within them, depending

on how they connect with them, but.

807

: 00:43:59

Cer certainly, we, if we look

at is, is storytelling powerful?

808

: 00:44:03

It to some degree it's everything.

809

: 00:44:05

And there are people who would say that

their, their beliefs are everything

810

: 00:44:08

in their lives or well, yeah.

811

: 00:44:10

And that and that for them.

812

: 00:44:12

Those stories are everything.

813

: 00:44:14

Rob Noel: Yeah, definitely.

814

: 00:44:16

I mean, stories are what I remember

from, from speeches and, and

815

: 00:44:20

books and, and good advice for any

speaker, or speech writer is to.

816

: 00:44:26

Take a look at yourself and, what

stands out to you in speeches?

817

: 00:44:30

when you try to remember a speech that you

heard a year ago, what do you remember?

818

: 00:44:35

Is there one thing that stands out?

819

: 00:44:37

You know, the keys jingling

or something else like that?

820

: 00:44:39

And what lessons can you draw from

that to bring to your, content?

821

: 00:44:44

John: I, I, I, I wonder as I, I wanna

start drawing things to, to, to a close.

822

: 00:44:48

You've been very, very generous with your,

your time and, and your sharing today.

823

: 00:44:51

But on the theme of storytelling are, are

there a few sort of key elements that you

824

: 00:44:59

could share with the, with our listener

who that might help them in, in writing

825

: 00:45:03

and pulling together their stories?

826

: 00:45:07

Rob Noel: Well, there's,

you know, the, the basics.

827

: 00:45:11

If you need a beginning, a

middle, and end, you need

828

: 00:45:13

characters that are compelling.

829

: 00:45:15

Those characters need to have an arc

where they change somehow over time.

830

: 00:45:19

but one thing I'll, I'll mention

is there's the, there's a way of

831

: 00:45:23

organizing a speech that uses a story.

832

: 00:45:27

As the spine for the entire speech.

833

: 00:45:30

So you start with, an

initial part of a story.

834

: 00:45:33

You see this in politics

with the origin story.

835

: 00:45:35

So they'll start with a

speech, a story about how.

836

: 00:45:38

You know, they were raised by a single

mother, in a one bedroom apartment.

837

: 00:45:41

And, and they remember the,

the heat getting shut, shut off

838

: 00:45:45

because she couldn't pay the bills.

839

: 00:45:46

And they remember, doing their

homework by the, the, the

840

: 00:45:49

light of the oven or whatever.

841

: 00:45:51

and then they'll use that part

of the story to talk about the

842

: 00:45:55

economy and to talk about the

struggles of everyday people.

843

: 00:45:58

And then about halfway through

the speech, they'll loop back to

844

: 00:46:01

the story and they'll say, how?

845

: 00:46:03

Then they knew that one guidance

counselor in high school, or they

846

: 00:46:06

knew that one professor in college and

education is what changed their life

847

: 00:46:10

and told them like, I belong here in

this room, or whatever the case may be.

848

: 00:46:14

And that's then their introduction to

an education section or you know, some,

849

: 00:46:19

some other sort of policy section where

they then go into education policy and

850

: 00:46:24

then at the very end of the speech they

loop back to it and they say how, you

851

: 00:46:28

know, My mother didn't, you know, didn't

live long enough to see me get sworn

852

: 00:46:32

into office, but, I promised her when

we lived in that one bedroom apartment,

853

: 00:46:36

that if I ever got the chance to, you

know, fight for people like us, I, I

854

: 00:46:39

wouldn't give it up, something like that.

855

: 00:46:41

So it, it creates that callback structure.

856

: 00:46:45

but it's also, you're, you're

using the story as an organizing

857

: 00:46:48

device, like the wrapping, the, the

pill for your dog in the Turkey.

858

: 00:46:52

You know, it's what makes

everything else go down.

859

: 00:46:55

It's what makes everything else.

860

: 00:46:56

Memorable, and stick for people so

that they're with you the whole time.

861

: 00:47:02

you know, the speech isn't, isn't

dying on you as a speaker and it's

862

: 00:47:05

not dying on the listener either.

863

: 00:47:07

It's keeping you engaged the full time

and it's also allowing for an arc for

864

: 00:47:12

your own story or for your character

that you're telling a story about.

865

: 00:47:16

So that's one device, strategy that we try

to use a lot of times in speech writing.

866

: 00:47:22

John: that's really helpful.

867

: 00:47:23

Thank you.

868

: 00:47:23

And, and do, do you feel that

there's always gonna be a need

869

: 00:47:27

and a demand for speech writers?

870

: 00:47:31

Rob Noel: Well, I mean, we

could talk about artificial

871

: 00:47:33

intelligence, you know, as, as kind

of an offshoot of that question.

872

: 00:47:37

but I also think that there, there's a

way to look at it that, Like I said at the

873

: 00:47:41

very beginning, my sort of contrarian view

is that people don't want to be read to.

874

: 00:47:45

They don't want you to

go up and read a speech.

875

: 00:47:48

That doesn't mean that there's

no, room for writing a speech.

876

: 00:47:51

It just means that you don't really wanna

read it unless you have to or in certain.

877

: 00:47:55

you know, situations, but like we've

been to weddings, for example, all of

878

: 00:47:59

us where the, the groom or, you know,

the best man will get up and he'll

879

: 00:48:03

be reading from his phone, right?

880

: 00:48:05

And it's just less engaging

than when someone stands up.

881

: 00:48:09

And it seems as if they're

speaking from the heart.

882

: 00:48:11

But of course we know that

that person has prepared.

883

: 00:48:14

Their, their material, they've written

it down, they're just not reading it.

884

: 00:48:18

So I do think that there will

always be a place for writing

885

: 00:48:21

speeches for speech writers.

886

: 00:48:23

but, it, it changes over time as the taste

of audience changes, and and just the way

887

: 00:48:28

that we consume information and content.

888

: 00:48:31

John: That's, that's great.

889

: 00:48:32

Well, I, I guess we'll see what the

future holds, but I, I agree and

890

: 00:48:35

I, I, I'm hopeful for that as well.

891

: 00:48:37

Rob.

892

: 00:48:37

Rob Noel: How's that for back John?

893

: 00:48:38

Because.

894

: 00:48:39

John: That was nice.

895

: 00:48:40

Nicely done.

896

: 00:48:41

I've got some Nice, I I've

certainly got some nice takeaways

897

: 00:48:44

from, from this episode.

898

: 00:48:45

I'm gonna remember the, the thread

of steel and the personal being

899

: 00:48:48

general and, yeah, so some nice,

some nice stuff coming up today.

900

: 00:48:52

Really appreciate this, appreciate

this conversation while it's been

901

: 00:48:54

really interesting to talk to you and,

Some, some really nice elements that

902

: 00:48:58

is very glad that we got to have this

conversation, and I hope that our, our

903

: 00:49:03

listener at home or where they are has,

got some nice takeaways from it too.

904

: 00:49:06

If, if they, if they would like to connect

with you and reach out, maybe find out

905

: 00:49:10

more about what, what you do, what would

be the best way for 'em to do that?

906

: 00:49:13

Rob Noel: they can find

me on LinkedIn, Rob Noel.

907

: 00:49:15

They can find, my company's

website is Washington writers.com

908

: 00:49:19

and there's a way to reach

out to us, from there.

909

: 00:49:21

But, yeah, I'd love to hear from people.

910

: 00:49:23

John: Great.

911

: 00:49:23

I'll make sure that's all in

the show notes for everyone.

912

: 00:49:25

But Rob Noelle, it's been a

pleasure having you on . Thank you.

913

: 00:49:28

Rob Noel: This has been

a lot of fun, John.

914

: 00:49:29

Thanks a

915

: 00:49:29

lot.

916

: 00:49:30

John: That was Rob Noll showing us

that great speeches hinge on clarity

917

: 00:49:33

structure and knowing exactly what

your audience needs to hear, whether

918

: 00:49:37

it's building a persuasive narrative

or choosing every word with intent.

919

: 00:49:41

We've learned today that even

small tweaks can turn a speech

920

: 00:49:44

from forgettable to impactful.

921

: 00:49:47

Take these lessons, apply them

to your next talk, and make sure

922

: 00:49:51

your message isn't just delivered.

923

: 00:49:53

It's remembered.

924

: 00:49:57

Before you go, if you haven't already

checked out last week's episode

925

: 00:50:00

with Julian Treasure, take a listen.

926

: 00:50:02

It is an absolute treasure, all about

the importance and power of listening

927

: 00:50:06

in speaking, and also you'll find the

coaching episode with Jackson Ogunyemi

928

: 00:50:12

all about making that pivot from small

speaker fees that barely keep you

929

: 00:50:16

going, into those speaker big leagues.

930

: 00:50:18

Moving from less than 3000 per gig up to

10,000 plus, you won't wanna miss that.

931

: 00:50:24

So wherever you're going, whatever you're

doing, have an amazing rest of your day.

932

: 00:50:27

We'll see you next time.