Episode 283
Charisma Isn't Innate, It's Built: Owen Fitzpatrick on the Psychology of Influence
Most speakers assume their audience is persuadable by good evidence. Psychologist Owen Fitzpatrick, who trained under NLP co-creator Richard Bandler and has travelled to over a hundred countries, including North Korea, Afghanistan and Iran, studying how belief actually forms, argues that's backwards. People believe what feels right, fits their identity, and keeps them inside their tribe. Evidence comes after, as justification.
Owen built his reputation on charisma work (his book The Charismatic Edge argued charisma is an impression you create, not something you're born with) before moving into belief and propaganda with his new book Inner Propaganda, out 4 August. In this conversation, he lays out his DELP model (an expansion of Aristotle's ethos, logos, pathos to include demos — understanding your specific audience), explains why intelligent, critical-thinking people are often the most convincing propagandists to themselves, and draws a sharp line between persuasion, manipulation and propaganda that every speaker standing on a stage should sit with.
We also get into why spontaneous, unscripted delivery reads as more truthful than polished delivery (with Martin Luther King's "I Have a Dream" as the example), and why AI's tendency to flatter you is quietly making this problem worse, not better.
In this episode:
- Why charisma is built, not innate, and why it matters more now than when Owen wrote The Charismatic Edge in 2013
- The DELP model: demos, ethos, logos, pathos
- Why perceived authenticity beats actual authenticity, and why spontaneity reads as truth
- Why critical thinking doesn't protect you from bad beliefs (argumentation vs investigation)
- Motivated reasoning, naive realism, and sacred values: why smart people hold ridiculous beliefs
- The difference between persuasion, manipulation and propaganda, and why every speaker is, to a degree, a propagandist
- Owen's practical tools: the belief audit, the feels right/fits in/makes sense framework, and E-Prime language
Connect with Owen on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/owenfitzp/
The book and the special workshop are available at https://innerpropaganda.com, and you can discover more about Owen and his work at https://owenfitzpatrick.com
FAQ
What is Owen Fitzpatrick's DELP model?
The DELP model is Owen Fitzpatrick's expansion of Aristotle's rhetorical triad of ethos, logos and pathos. Owen adds demos, the requirement to understand the specific audience being addressed, alongside ethos (credibility and positioning), logos (logical structure and evidence) and pathos (emotional impact).
What is Owen Fitzpatrick's book Inner Propaganda about?
Inner Propaganda is Owen Fitzpatrick's book, to be released on 4th of August 2026, about how individuals generate their own propaganda internally through feelings, self-narratives and motivated reasoning. It argues that people convince themselves of beliefs the same way state propaganda convinces populations, through internal versions of state media, indoctrination and truth engineering.
What is the difference between persuasion, manipulation and propaganda, according to Owen Fitzpatrick?
Persuasion is the ethical attempt to change beliefs, attitudes or behaviour while genuinely caring about what the other person wants. Manipulation uses deception and serves only the persuader's own interests. Propaganda combines both, using every available tool of persuasion and manipulation to construct an entire reality for the audience.
Why doesn't critical thinking protect people from believing false things?
According to Owen Fitzpatrick, critical thinking and intelligence make people better at constructing airtight arguments (argumentation) rather than at genuinely investigating what is true (investigation). Motivated reasoning, a concept from psychologist Ziva Kunda, refers to people reasoning toward conclusions they already want to be true.
What is naive realism?
Naive realism is the belief that one's own perception of reality is objectively accurate and shared by anyone reasonable. Owen Fitzpatrick argues this prevents people from applying the same critical scrutiny to their own beliefs that they readily apply to beliefs they disagree with.
What is E-Prime language and why does Owen Fitzpatrick use it?
E-Prime is a form of English that eliminates the verb "to be," originally developed by David Bourland based on Alfred Korzybski's work on language and semantics. Owen Fitzpatrick uses it as a belief-flexibility tool: replacing "this is true" with "this seems true to me" builds in the possibility of revision.
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Transcript
Here's an uncomfortable question.
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:If you are smart, does that make
you harder to fool or easier?
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:Most speakers assume their
audience's beliefs are rational,
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:evidence based up for debate.
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:They're not.
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:People believe what feels right, what
fits their identity, and what keeps
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:them in their tribe, and no amount
of good data changes that on its own.
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:My guest today is a psychologist
who trained under NLP Co-creator
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:Richard Bandler has travelled to
over a hundred countries, including
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:North Korea, studying how belief and
propaganda actually worked, and whose
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:new book Inner Propaganda is out.
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:On the 4th of August.
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:We get into why charisma is di
and born, why intelligent people
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:hold ridiculous beliefs and where
persuasion tips over into manipulation.
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:My guest is Owen Fitzpatrick.
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:Welcome to Professional Speaking the
show for people who are serious about
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:speaking and becoming none book and paid.
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:My name's John Ball, professional
speaking coach, keynote speaker,
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:standup comedian and sci-fi nerd.
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:I'm here as your guide on the journey
to a successful speaking career.
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:Owen Fitzpatrick.
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:Welcome to the Professional Speaking Show.
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: Thank you so much, John.
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:Delighted to be here.
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:John: I've actually just been listening
to a lot of your content recently.
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:your podcast Inner Propaganda, which is
also the name of the book that you have
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:coming out And it's been very interesting.
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:I just, I was just listening to
your recent episode with, Nir
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:Eyal is very interesting guy.
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:He is.
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:he wrote a great book recently called
Beyond Belief, which is really good.
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:it's very aligned with the book, inner
propaganda that, that, that I've written.
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:and that'll be out in August.
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:And, beyond Belief is along the exact
same lines about how we need to be,
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:the power of beliefs and how we need
to be able to change those beliefs
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:and some ways to be able to do that.
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:So it was really nice
having him on the podcast.
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:John: It's a, it was a very
interesting episode, which I would
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:recommend anyone to check out.
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:so on, on that topic, what's one
belief you've genuinely changed your
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:mind about in the last 10 years?
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: take your pick.
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:there's been so many, I think
the world itself has changed
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:dramatically in the last 10 years.
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:And I think that, we tend to see
the world in a particular way.
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:We have a set of beliefs about
ourselves, about, what goes on around
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:the world about how politics works.
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:and a massive amount of
those beliefs have changed.
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:But I suppose also specifically for me
moving to the states, which I did in
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:2019, I'm originally from Dublin, Ireland,
very proudly, Irish and the experience
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:of moving to a different country.
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:I think one specific belief I got as a
speaker actually is the importance of
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:promoting yourself and being able to
talk about yourself with confidence.
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:Where I come from, new intellectually
that, you're supposed to promote
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:yourself and let people know about you.
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:but I've always struggled with it.
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:Maybe it's the Irish, I think it's
definitely the Irish influence.
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:but when you go to the states, you
notice that you're surrounded by people.
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:And people of, at least in New
York, people have no hesitation.
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:Were telling you about themselves, telling
you about their successes, telling you
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:about their qualifications, tell 'em
about telling you about what they've done.
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:And that was a, a, a
belief that I had to shift.
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:I had to believe that it was okay to share
some of the things, that, that I've done.
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:because I was, I kept hearing
from colleagues and friends, oh my
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:goodness, I never realised X and Y
and Z and I've known you for so long,
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:and then I found out you did this,
you did that, and you did the other.
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:And I'm like, yeah, that's on me.
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:so I think that's probably, as a speaker,
that's one of the beliefs that I think
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:we all need to, cultivate in ourselves.
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:it's not that I didn't believe in
myself, it's that I felt, or I believed
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:that letting people know about it was
somehow, detracting from my presence.
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:And I definitely have
changed in that, that
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:manner.
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:John: that's definitely
an interesting one.
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:One, one I can relate to in a
different way as being, as a Brit
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:who moved to Spain 14 years ago.
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:And, I heard the different social mores
and different ways of relating to people.
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:Some which have caused me to
change, I think in some positive
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:ways, but also some shifts that are
noticed, oh, did I really want that?
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:yeah.
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:It's very interesting to think about,
your, for you, your work seems to have
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:gone from NLP to charismatic edge to
belief leadership now to inter propaganda.
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:What's actually changed in
how you think about influence?
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: I think I've always
been fascinated with influence, but it
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:started off when I was a teenager, I
struggled with my mental health, and
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:that's where the whole, journey began
for me in terms of looking at beliefs.
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:And NLP was one of the
conduits towards that.
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:So I was so fortunate to, work with,
the amazing Brian Culbert, who's, NLP
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:Trainer, master Trainer in Ireland.
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:And also, very importantly to
get to know and work with Dr.
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:Richard Bandler, co-creator of NLP.
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:And myself and Richard
worked on some books.
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:He's a great mentor of mine,
a great friend of mine.
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:So that definitely baded
me in this notion of NLP.
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:But at the same time, I was also,
I had a master's in psychology.
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:I was a psychologist.
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:And I guess where both of them met
was me trying to understand more about
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:how we influence ourselves and then
also how we influence other people.
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:And at the time as well, as a
teenager, I was studying cults.
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:I was studying propaganda.
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:Even back then, I have
a degree in history.
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:I was like fascinated with Nazi
Germany, still to this day trying
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:to understand how it works.
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:So for me, that's where the journey began.
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:And then charisma was a
natural outpost on that.
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:I did my master's thesis on gurus
and how they become charismatic
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:and how they are able to influence,
like my master's thesis was on how
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:gurus influenced their followers.
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:And a big part of that was charisma,
which is what drove me into that area
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:or that lens, which also obviously
helped with regards to the speaking.
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:And then I started travelling a lot more.
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:I travelled to more than a hundred
countries, including places like North
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:Korea, Afghanistan, Iran, Rwanda,
looking and trying to understand how
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:influence works in that, at a scale
right throughout, throughout the world.
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:And the more I learned, the
more I understood more about
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:how beliefs are manufactured.
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:And primarily they're
manufactured in our head.
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:And my main thesis or idea is that
they're manufactured because a
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:belief will change only if it feels
right, if it fits in with who we are.
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:And only then does it make sense.
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:And that became the impetus
for my book, inner Propaganda.
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:It's what, drove me to, I suppose
lured everything I could about
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:the neuroscience of influence,
the neuroscience of belief change.
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:and that's where I am now.
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:And it's honestly the most enjoyable
experience I've ever had was
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:working on the recent book because
to me I'm fascinated with beliefs.
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:So fascinated by how we persuade ourselves
and how we persuade other people.
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:And so I dove into that
as much as possible.
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:And, I just don't get tired of it.
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:I don't get tired of it at all.
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:I could talk about beliefs
and influence forever.
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:John: I can relate to that.
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:It's one of my favourite topics.
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:And really what got me on the path
that, that I'm on now of, just of seeing
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:all these invisible mechanisms that
playing us, thinking all this stuff
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:that influences, and we have often
no idea what's influences influencing
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:us or how it's influencing us.
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:And I would say that's even what led
me more to, in diving into professional
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:speaking has been the key topic, because
I didn't even realise when I started
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:my show at first, which was more about
influence and persuasion, then how
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:rhetoric tied in with things and and
how important influence and persuasion
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:is from platforms and things like that.
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:Inner Propaganda is coming out
on August the fourth, so very
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:soon that's gonna be released.
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:But your previous book, which was the
Charismatic Edge, you said in charisma is
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:an impression that you deliberately create
in someone's mind, not something innate.
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:Is this still exploring the same
phenomenon on a bigger scale?
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: I think that if you
look at the idea or my theory around
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:charisma, that was based upon, removing
the myth or misconception most people
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:have about charisma, which is charisma is
something you either have or you don't.
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:And my point is that all babies
or toddlers are charismatic.
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:You never see a boring baby.
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:You'll never walk past the baby and go,
oh my goodness, they've got no, energy.
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:They've got no stage presses,
they've got no, personality.
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:They all are full of it.
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:And along the way, we get fears of
rejection, failure and an embarrassment
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:that hold us back and limit us.
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:And so it's really the impression
you create in the mind of other
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:people matters of mass amount.
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:But for me, when I look at influence,
I suppose I look at four elements.
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:So if you take what Aristotle
used to talk about, he would talk
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:about ethos, logos, and pathos.
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:So ethos is how credible you
are, a positioning, an impression
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:of you in the mind of others.
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:So that might be a analogous to the
notion of charisma as I talk about it.
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:Then we have, logos, which is the
logical appeal of the argument, how
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:well structured your argument is,
the use of data, the use of evidence
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:to be able to back up your claim.
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:Then we have pathos, which is
to me the most underrated in
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:the corporate world, certainly.
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:But even generally in the world,
it's the impact of emotions on
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:whether or not people will believe in
whatever it is that they'll believe.
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:And I've added a, that I
call this the DELP method.
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:And basically the, the Delp method is,
demos, ethos, logos, and pathos and demos
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:is actually to do with people themselves.
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:So it's trying to understand
the people you're talking to.
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:So as a speaker, if I'm going out
into the audience, obviously I need
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:to position myself, be as charismatic,
be as engaging as possible.
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:I need to ensure that my messages
sound logical, that I'm communicating
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:really useful ideas and insights
that make sense to people.
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:I need to ensure that I'm impacting
the way in which the audience feels.
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:So it feels right to them and
it fits in, but it needs to fit
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:in with who they are as well.
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:And in order to do that, the, the
fourth element, this demos piece, the
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:people, means we need to understand
the audience we're speaking to.
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:Who is my audience?
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:How do I ensure that my audience
hears everything that I say in a
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:way that fits in with who they are,
with, who they believe they are
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:with, who they believe they wanna be?
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:How do I make sure that fits in with what
they already think and connects with them?
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:How do I make sure that I give
them what they're looking for?
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:And I think that's one of the things
that I really lean into as a speaker, is
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:trying to understand the audience that
I'm speaking to as well as possible.
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:I try to dive into their world and I
might not know all the vocabulary of
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:vernacular that they use, but all I have
to know is exactly how they're seeing
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:themselves, the kind of things they
need, the kind of struggles they have.
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:'cause the more I do that, the
more I can, create an impact.
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:So yes, charisma's one element to
it, but I think there's some other
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:aspects we need to master as well.
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:John: I don't know for sure,
but I don't think Aristotle
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:would've disagreed with that.
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:I think he would've probably been
quite happy to take that on, but it's
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: I'd hope so.
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:John: yeah.
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:and it's certainly something that I,
professional speakers will often say,
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:but perhaps have never fully formalised
as well as you have that How important
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:would you say charisma is now for
someone walking onto a stage or into
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:the camera, whatever media compared
to when you wrote Charismatic Edge.
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: I think
now it's table stakes.
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:I think back in the day, there was an
opportunity, and again, remember, I,
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:I wrote, I wrote the Charismatic Edge.
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:it came out in 2013, but I wrote
a, I think an Italian version of
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:a, a couple of years before that.
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:And one of the things that I think exists
now that didn't exist then is literally
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:we've, all the information we need,
we don't need any more information.
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:We can get information.
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:Now, not all that information
is going to be accurate, but we
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:can get whatever information we
want, at the touch of a button.
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:And to a degree, we had Google of
course, but now with ai it's just, you
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:can ask whatever question that you want.
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:So information isn't the issue.
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:Inspiration I would argue
isn't even the issue.
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:Whereas speakers, to me, inspiration
information are table stakes.
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:back in the day when I wrote Charismatic
Edge, I think there was a need for
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:folks to be able to be charismatic, but
it wasn't as important as it is today.
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:Because today what differentiates
you is what makes the difference.
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:Back in the day, if you had a really
cool idea that would perhaps get you
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:onto platforms, you didn't have to be,
I saw a lot of speakers that weren't
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:very charismatic, but they got onto
stages and they were getting paid and
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:there were, professional speakers.
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:Now the competition's increased.
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:Now there's a lot more
people, that are vying for it.
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:And a lot of people that are winning
are the folks that actually do
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:come across as more charismatic
than, than previous times.
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:Because once again, you'd say the same
information 'cause everyone is saying
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:the same information a lot of the times.
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:What makes you different is
your personality, uniqueness,
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:and, pure charisma.
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:John: Yeah, I've heard others put it
along the lines of this really is about
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:your ability to connect and I think
charisma is a huge element in that.
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:I don't wonder if you'd agree with that.
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: I think so, I
think when I talk about the fear of
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:rejection, failure, embarrassment,
that hold us back from being ourselves,
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:I always used to look at charisma
as about, it's about being you more,
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:and it's about being more of you.
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:And that means being authentic,
but also being expressive.
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:And so I think in many ways when you're
able to express yourself authentically,
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:people connect with that 'cause.
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:They go, oh, I recognise
that is real and true to me.
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:And I think that connection is of
course an important beast to it.
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:But I also think that there's
something to be said for this
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:desire we have for realness.
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:I think we need authenticity more than
ever in a world full of deception,
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:full of disinformation, full of
misinformation, full of confusion,
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:full of ambiguity, full of volatility.
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:We need to feel that the person in
front of us is legit, is real, is
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:authentic, is saying it as it is.
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:And I think you can see that in
terms of even politically, people who
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:are perceived to be more authentic
tend to be doing a lot better than
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:those who are perceived not to be.
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:And I'm saying perceived because
that's what it's all about.
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:It's about perception.
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:But the same is true in terms of speakers.
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:The
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:perception of authenticity.
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:The perception of realness,
I think matters so much.
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:So I think we connect more when
we're real, even if we're different
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:to the person listening, if they
feel that they're connecting
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:with a real human being.
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:I think we're starving for that
because in a world of social media,
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:we're seeing all of this, but we
don't know what's really true.
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:We don't know who the celebrities or who
the influencers are in the real world.
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:That's why we're
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:fascinated with celebrity
culture for so many years.
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:And I think when you demonstrate that
realness or authenticity, I think
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:people connect very much with that.
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:John: Yeah, it's interesting that you do
emphasise this is the perception of that.
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:So it may not always necessarily
be authentically the case, but
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:if it comes across that way,
that's what's really serving you.
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:So whether it's genuine or
performed, perhaps doesn't matter
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:as much as what the end result is.
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:Owen Fitzpatrick: exactly.
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:And I'll give you an example.
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:So I'll give you two examples actually.
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:One is, there's a, a, a great book
by Robin Reams, and I think it's
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:called The Ancient Art of Thinking.
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:critically, I'm definitely messing up the
thing, but Robin Reams, or OBIN, reams.
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:And in it she talks about, I think it's
the ancient art of thinking for yourself.
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:And in it, she talks about
this notion of truth.
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:And she says that our understanding
of truth is that truth is either true
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:or false, and the opposite, true is
false, something that's not true.
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:But she said back in the days when,
so Sophists and Sofas were those
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:folks that were around and even
before Socrates and whatnot, in
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:fact, he had arguments with them.
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:And the sofas were amazing at being
able to convince people of anything.
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:They were great at using rhetoric
to persuade anyone of anything.
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:Georges is a famous one.
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:He had this, speech he, he did about
Helen of Troy, where he changed
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:the impression that most people had
of Helen, of Troy from the whole
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:Trojan War stories and whatnot.
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:The other, from the,
stories of that, that time.
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:And one of the things that, Robin talks
about is she talks about the opposite.
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:The truth for them was often hiding.
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:So truth was unhinging was letting people
see behind the curtain was revealing.
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:And in many ways, even the metaphor, the
Play-Doh uses of the cave, you walk out
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:of the cave and now you're enlightened.
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:you see what's really there.
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:You're no longer looking at the cave.
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:that's the play's.
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:allegory, I ca and this idea that the
truth is what's revealed as opposed to
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:the truth is what's true or accurate
based on evidence is an interesting one.
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:And what she does is she talks about
how, often speakers that tend to
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:demonstrate more spontaneousness
or, being more extemporaneous in
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:the way in which they sh they speak.
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:So in other words, not using
a teleprompter, not preparing
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:notes, just speak it off the cuff.
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:That tends to feel true
to a lot of people.
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:So even they could be lying
spontaneously, but yet people will
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:instinctively go, yes, that is true.
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:That feels true.
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:And when someone is using the
teleprompter, even if they're speaking
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:the truth, it feels almost like they're
hiding something because they're,
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:they've prepared this or they plan this.
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:And so there's a very strong reaction
I think we have whenever a person
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:is prepared or plan versus, a more,
spontaneous form of communication.
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:And to me, I think a lot of folks can
see this happening in the real world.
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:When someone is just speaking off
the cuff, we naturally tend to,
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:a lot of people naturally tend
to trust whatever they say more
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:because they tell it as it is.
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:They're saying what's true.
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:and the same thing is true even if
you take, for example, the greatest
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:speech of all time and the most
amazing Martin Luther King, right?
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:One of the most interesting parts of the
I Have A Dream speech is that while he
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:talked about the dream before and he used
similar sentences than before the actual
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:speech, when he gave that famous I Have
a Dream speech, he was talking for a long
338
:time, again, talking through the sort of
notes of the speech, and then somebody
339
:from the audience shouted up, tell him
about the dream, Martin, tell him about
340
:the dream, which is again, a sort of a
version of that where he had talked, I
341
:don't know, a few months back, when he
started talking about, I Have a Dream.
342
:And in that speech spontaneously,
he started going in.
343
:So if you look at it, there's a difference
between the beginning of that speech
344
:and that actual piece where he starts
talking about, I had a dream that
345
:one day, and you see him, transform
and it's just so like effortless and
346
:natural because he's not reading off it.
347
:This is something that's coming
from him, from, the idea that he's
348
:had for a long period of time.
349
:So even one would argue, I certainly
would argue the greatest speech that
350
:has ever been said, incorporated that
spontaneous, flavour and as a result
351
:and not just as a result of that,
the actual speech itself is fire.
352
:the, the actual notion is terrific.
353
:But I think that, it's interesting that
the best speech of all time wasn't that
354
:part, wasn't scripted in that moment.
355
:John: but it was from material
he'd used in other speeches that
356
:he was able to bring into that.
357
:And I see that in many different sort
of performing settings that the people
358
:who are best at extemporaneous speaking,
improvisation are the ones who have
359
:practised who are well rehearsed,
their staff and have their material
360
:down pat enough to be able to bring
up or make the shift when it needs
361
:to be made and have that, flexibility
and deafness really, which is quite
362
:something, in interesting for you to
bring up, critical thinking skills.
363
:So because it's, I know it's
relevant part two to your book, in,
364
:Inner Propaganda that's coming out.
365
:and I've seen on your podcast
as well that you have some stuff
366
:on your podcast about that.
367
:it something I've looked into
myself a lot as well, and it does
368
:seem that intelligence doesn't
protect us from believing things
369
:that are complete rubbish.
370
:but why not?
371
:Owen Fitzpatrick: Because we are
really good when we're intelligent.
372
:We're really good at
forming arguments, right?
373
:One of the things about logical reasoning,
if you look at, Aristotle obviously, gave
374
:us a great way to be able to structure
and understand, how we use logic.
375
:We got the syllogisms and whatnot,
and we got deductive logic and
376
:inductive logic and abduct.
377
:We got all of these different forms of how
we could become really good at ensuring,
378
:that reason is something that we stick to.
379
:The problem really is that if you're
really good, really intelligent,
380
:or even if you're really good at
critical thinking, and this is the
381
:piece a lot of people struggle with,
because critical thinking is often
382
:seen as the antidote towards, falling
for things, the antidote towards
383
:believing things that are not true.
384
:The problem is, critical thinking is a
really great skill to help us to challenge
385
:beliefs, to be able to understand
how there's two sides to every story.
386
:To be able to look at things and to be
able to find poke holes in a logical
387
:reasoning, to be able to identify
logical fallacies or whatnot, right?
388
:So it's an incredible array of tools.
389
:Being intelligent means you've got an
awful lot of skills at being able to
390
:come up with ideas, be able to remember
information, remember data, whatnot.
391
:The problem with that is that both of
those skills are enabling you to be
392
:really good at a form of using logic,
which we call argumentation, right?
393
:And argumentation is
different to investigation.
394
:I try to identify, to me there's two
forms of using logical reasoning.
395
:One is argumentation where you are
able to put together a really airtight
396
:argument, but you're arguing to
achieve what it is that you want.
397
:This is sort of oftentimes connected
with a, an aspect of psychology called
398
:motivated reasoning by, Ziva Knda.
399
:And the notion is that we often will
reason based upon what we want to be true.
400
:And we use techniques like confirmation
bias where we, look for evidence to
401
:prove our conclusions are true, and
we dismiss evidence, the country
402
:exit, but motivated reasoning drives
our ability to make these arguments.
403
:So we are
404
:really good at making arguments.
405
:So effectively, that's why you can see
someone who's a brilliant thinker, right?
406
:A genius really, or someone who's
an expert in some space, and you
407
:believe everything they say about
that area because they really
408
:have their finger on the button.
409
:And then they've got a crazy
take about something politically
410
:like wild, completely different.
411
:And you ask yourself, how can
someone so smart be so stupid?
412
:How could they be so
dumb in this one area?
413
:And it's because they have a
phenomenal capacity to convince
414
:themselves of that particular idea.
415
:Now that presupposes that we know what's
smart and dumb ourselves, but we are
416
:all experiencing in this form what
we call naive realism, where we all
417
:think that, look, the way I see reality
is true the way John sees reality.
418
:I don't know.
419
:And this is a myth that this is a,
a, a belief that we hold this naive
420
:realism, which stops us from actually
challenging our own assumptions.
421
:Because once more we use critical
thinking, but the critical thinking
422
:we use is always conveniently to
critique or to challenge or to
423
:criticise the beliefs that someone else
holds that are different to our own.
424
:The other approach is investigation.
425
:And investigation is
about asking questions.
426
:It's about trying to figure,
it's what scientists do.
427
:At the very best, it's
what, engineers do, right?
428
:It's what
429
:people are doing in order to
figure out what's really going on.
430
:The problem is in society, in the
social world we live in, when human
431
:beings are involved, it's really
difficult to figure out what's
432
:actually going on because everything is
interpretive, everything is subjective.
433
:Whenever someone says a particular
thing, they could say, oh, you
434
:took it outta context, and maybe
you did and maybe you didn't.
435
:But once again, we're living in a
story war where everyone tells a story
436
:about what this means or what that
means, and therefore to actually figure
437
:things out, you have to be able to
use investigation to try to figure out
438
:what is the steel man on both sides.
439
:And so to me, if we wanna be better,
we need to recognise that every single
440
:idea that we buy into is a belief
that either we've sold to ourselves
441
:or someone else has sold to us.
442
:But regardless if we don't challenge
both sides, if we don't look at the
443
:steelman of the opposite perspective
as well as our own, we're never gonna
444
:get the freedom to be able to figure
out whether or not we're believing it
445
:because we just found ourselves that way.
446
:Or whether we've really taught
it through and figured out,
447
:is this something legitimate?
448
:Is this something real for me?
449
:And to me, that's why smart
people can actually have really
450
:terrible takes, about things.
451
:I know myself, I'm biassed
in certain areas of my life.
452
:I'm very aware of it because I'm just
clouded by my feelings, clouded by what I
453
:want to be true, clouded by my identity.
454
:And I think we need to recognise that
and form that sort of intellectual
455
:or cognitive humility so that
we do give ourselves a chance to
456
:be able to change our own minds.
457
:John: I remember, I think my first
introduction to critical thinking
458
:skills was Rolf Dobelli's book
and the Art of Thinking Clearly
459
:and it was an eyeopener for me.
460
:a book I valued greatly and started
challenging a lot of my own cognitive
461
:biases and recognising some of
the logical Fanta in my own life.
462
:But even when that work is done,
but there's still so much to do.
463
:it doesn't end.
464
:do you think we all have blind
spots that we just won't touch?
465
:or do you think maybe many people
aren't even willing to really
466
:challenge their cognitive biases or
be woken up to, logical fallacies?
467
:Owen Fitzpatrick: I think
there is definitely areas.
468
:there's a notion called sacred
values, Scott Aron's work.
469
:and the notion that we have certain
values that logic won't penetrate,
470
:nothing will get through to it.
471
:And also, remember, whenever we
believe something, often belief is,
472
:the membership fee, we pay to be
part of a tribe or part of the group.
473
:So you will believe whatever it is your
friends believe, or the people around you
474
:believe, we often will choose to believe
whatever everyone around us believes.
475
:And what that means is that when
they start to deviate from, when
476
:someone deviates from the norm
of the belief, immediately they
477
:risk being, thrown out and they
risk being abandoned by the group.
478
:And you can see this
politically all the time.
479
:this is just, all of a sudden someone
doesn't conform to what the Republicans
480
:say or what the Democrats say in
the states, and before you know it,
481
:they're, thrown out and then they
move to the other side of it, right?
482
:This has happened multiple times
over the last few years, and
483
:it just shows you the power.
484
:How can someone's entire way of thinking
about the world change so dramatically?
485
:that's the power of what
happens when we shame people.
486
:We think when we shame people, they
will be shamed and then they will
487
:turn around and, start to play ball.
488
:and it doesn't work like that
because when you humiliate someone,
489
:where are they supposed to go?
490
:And this is happening quite a lot.
491
:Some of the influencers that necessarily
are leading, you know, young men, for
492
:example, down the garden path and,
influencing them in the wrong kind of way.
493
:Once more.
494
:It's because, the other side, anything
that the, these young men do, that
495
:isn't perfect according to what's
expected, immediately ashamed for it.
496
:and the goal behind the shaming is,
look, we don't want this kind of
497
:behaviour in society, but to me it's
all about how do you make them feel?
498
:And so I think that to your point, to
your question, I think often when we
499
:touch on something that feels really
important to a person or it's part
500
:of who they are, they're not going to
allow themselves to use investigation.
501
:I'll take, when you read the book, one of
the reasons why the book made a difference
502
:to you when you started using it is
because, and I'm guessing here, but you
503
:see yourself as someone who is a critical
thinker, at least wants to be more.
504
:And therefore, that identity that you
have, John, that identity of you caring
505
:about what's actually true and what's
going on, even if you don't always want
506
:to know it, that's something that drove
you to be open to using the material where
507
:someone else could read the same book
and immediately point and go, I knew it.
508
:I knew they were using these tactics.
509
:I'm gonna use this to destroy them.
510
:Someone takes a book up
and uses it as a weapon.
511
:Someone else like yourself
takes the book up and uses it a
512
:tool to help you to get better.
513
:And the same information, the same
skills are there, but once again,
514
:this motivated reasoning comes in.
515
:And I think that people underestimate how
valuable that is, how powerful that is.
516
:All you gotta do is look around
the world, see how people feel
517
:very strongly, and they won't
even think about the other side.
518
:and that's what I always look for.
519
:I always look when if I'm to trust
someone on a, an issue, I want to hear
520
:them articulate both sides, convincingly.
521
:If they do that, I'm way more open.
522
:Unfortunately, it's few and far between.
523
:To find people that actually do
that, most of the time they'll
524
:steelman their own argument and
they'll strawman the other side.
525
:They'll say, of course they
would say that they believe this.
526
:And to me, that's missing the point.
527
:We need more nuance in the world and
528
:that's a lot of the work that I try
to bring to the table is try to help
529
:people to go, Hey, the world is not
as simple as we make it out to be.
530
:Our brains make it this way.
531
:We need to fight back because if we
don't, we're gonna be living in a, this
532
:simplified world that dumbs us all down.
533
:John: It's like we look for
our beliefs and decisions.
534
:We decide what they are, and
then we look for ways to prove
535
:them rather than disprove them
536
:Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
537
:yeah.
538
:John: the scientific, we don't
take the scientific approach
539
:with all of these things.
540
:I was fortunate enough to, have a
conversation some years back with,
541
:sto philosophy expert Donald Robertson
now if you've come across him
542
:Owen Fitzpatrick: Yeah.
543
:Yeah.
544
:John: but one of the things that he said,
which I found was very interesting, we
545
:were talking about this sort of topic
really of, what world be a sort of, heaven
546
:idyllic, intellectual haven if everybody
had critical thinking skills and, acted
547
:more along in line with stoic philosophy?
548
:And his answer was very much not the case.
549
:That there wasn't any sort of utopia
to look forward to with that actually
550
:the world would become ungovernable.
551
:would you agree with that or would you
say would be, you have a different take.
552
:Owen Fitzpatrick: No, I mean
I don't think he's wrong.
553
:I think ultimately speaking, I think
we, if you look around the research,
554
:and I know there was, books out there,
Han Rosalyn, I think there was Stephen
555
:Pinker talking about how the world
is so much more civilised and so
556
:much better than it was in past time.
557
:So are we making progress overall?
558
:For sure.
559
:But all you gotta do is spend 20 minutes
on social media to look at the influence
560
:of, I'll give you a real example.
561
:I recently had a, a Instagram
post that did quite well, that
562
:did actually went viral, right?
563
:been seen by hundreds of
thousands of people and of quite
564
:a, relatively small platform.
565
:And it took off a lot and
had hundreds of comments.
566
:And the main thesis was that, and I was
g this study that was done in:
567
:emotionality and rationality and language.
568
:So there was a study done in 2021,
where what they found was that they
569
:studied like newspapers and books
since:
570
:And they found that, rationality
increased in language up to,:
571
:then it turned a corner and emotionality,
like emotional language started
572
:appearing a lot more up until 2007.
573
:And then it got even worse.
574
:So it got really emotional by
even worse, way more emotional
575
:language used, in, books and
newspapers and media and whatnot.
576
:And.
577
:My main point of that was to recognise
that, so the main point I was
578
:trying to make was recognise this
emotionality and language, figure
579
:out how it might be influencing you.
580
:because I know that there's
a multitude of factors.
581
:There's a multitude of causes, right?
582
:There's lots of different reasons,
but so many of the comments where
583
:people telling you it's these people's
fault, it was almost like they were
584
:proving the point of the study itself.
585
:Everything was so emo, like the
responses were so full of emotion
586
:where they were pointing out to
a nice, convenient scapegoat.
587
:and maybe sometimes they would be hit
the nail on the head in terms of it.
588
:Certainly that's a factor.
589
:That is part of it.
590
:But I think it's so easy for us
just to reduce everything down
591
:to villains and heroes and a
simple villain, a simple hero.
592
:We've been programmed in
with that story, for so long.
593
:And I think nowadays it's
particularly bad in that context.
594
:So I think in many ways the world
is so much better than it was.
595
:But this not notion of this utopia,
Habermas talked about the public
596
:sphere and defended the ability we
have to, you know, discuss things.
597
:If everyone, taught like Socrates and
really tried to figure things out, that
598
:would cause its own problems, right?
599
:Because Socrates was very good at
showing you why you might not be true,
600
:or what you believe might not be true.
601
:but necessarily this notion where we
hold or exalt reason as being the only
602
:thing we could do that all day long.
603
:And it certainly helps us in, feels
like science or engineering to ensure
604
:that we're able to create these.
605
:And I say we, the amazing people who
create these amazing inventions, but
606
:ultimately when it comes to human
beings, you can't ignore the emotion.
607
:behavioural economics came along
and showed the way we feel and the
608
:biases we have, our cognitive biases
influence our decisions, right?
609
:That's not complicated to, to see.
610
:We could see it everywhere, but
if we don't recognise that we're
611
:never gonna understand human
beings, even effective realism.
612
:The fact that, again, from, the Lisa
Felman Barrett, the amazing neuroscientist
613
:in a lot of her research, it shows
that the way in which you see the world
614
:is filtered through your feelings.
615
:So we can, this, this arrogance,
we have to think that we are all
616
:rational creatures and we are all
have the capacity to be able to
617
:see what's real and what's true.
618
:I think that's, A problematic assumption.
619
:And it doesn't mean that the world is
subjective, there is objective reality.
620
:But so much of our, the way we
describe things is we take a truth.
621
:We wanna believe or what we feel is true
or what we agree with people is true.
622
:And we give it the label objective truth.
623
:and we haven't proved anything.
624
:All we do is well, because
me and John agree with it.
625
:It must be because I feel it's true.
626
:It must be 'cause I remember it.
627
:True.
628
:It must be I want it to be true.
629
:It must be that's to me, one of the
that I'm to help people to recognise.
630
:and doesn't mean we don't be about
but it just means we figure out
631
:everything a state of probability
we can revise update our beliefs.
632
:And I think that's we need to do more of.
633
:'cause I don't know if a utopia
around ever, but I think that the
634
:goal of beings to move towards
that is a, is a good goal to have.
635
:I think that in ways,
we're better than we are.
636
:Sorry, that was a really long
answer to a short question.
637
:What I.
638
:John: It is, but it's a, a good one
because this is something that I wanted
639
:to come to as well because I did see that
video and I found it very interesting.
640
:And to think about, certainly agree,
hyper hyperbole that we see in media
641
:Rage, bait and all also out there
is like, everything is about getting
642
:the clicks, getting eyes on, sorry.
643
:It's all about triggering the
emotional responses to things
644
:because that's what affects things.
645
:It's not data or facts that people
are so interested in general.
646
:It's the stuff that triggers
the emotional responses.
647
:that, with that in mind, do you think
that the, that will just continue to
648
:get worse or do you think there might
actually be pushback to that and things
649
:might move in a more rational direction?
650
:Owen Fitzpatrick: I think ultimately
speaking, we have the opportunity to
651
:be able to work on ourselves if we can
recognise our own humility, our own
652
:intellectual or cognitive humility.
653
:So I think if we can give ourselves
the opportunity to be able to
654
:challenge our assumptions, to figure
out what was going on in our own
655
:inner propaganda, then we have a
shot at being able to change things.
656
:But I think that needs to happen first,
and that's one of the reasons I wrote
657
:the book, is because I want us to
be better at being able to do this.
658
:I know myself, I've struggled with my
own mental health, and when I've gone
659
:through that, when I've experienced
that, one of the problems with it
660
:is that I find myself falling into a
sort of a spiral of negative cognitive
661
:distortions where I catastrophize or
whatnot, and they're not rational, but
662
:I'm able to use logic in that moment
to make it worse, to make it more crazy
663
:or over the top because I'm, my, my
brain has the capacity to argue that
664
:things are as scary as they might seem.
665
:And I think understanding that we
are the generators of so much of the
666
:propaganda that we buy into, we are the
generators of so many of the limiting
667
:beliefs, we're the generators of these
stories, means that we can turn around
668
:and look at those stories and recognise
they're just stories, they're not truth.
669
:And when we are able to identify the
difference between those two, I think
670
:we can go in the right direction.
671
:So are we, doomed?
672
:Are we going in the wrong direction?
673
:I think that we have been, and I hope
and believe that we can go the other way.
674
:However, we also are dealing with
our grappling with artificial
675
:intelligence, which can amplify a lot.
676
:I think if you want artificial
intelligence to build your confidence,
677
:I think it's great for that, right?
678
:It's, quite sycophantic.
679
:When I was writing the book,
one of the things I would do is
680
:I would send the, the chapters
along to, chapter GPT at the time.
681
:And, I would say, what do
you think of this chapter?
682
:And I'd say, you're a genius.
683
:This is the greatest thing I've ever read.
684
:This is like, you're like Hemingway.
685
:And I'm like, all right bro.
686
:and it feels good, but you
know that it's not true, right?
687
:It feels nice, it feels lovely,
warm and fuzzy for, for you to
688
:be getting this compliments.
689
:But we need to recognise the
difference between the fact that,
690
:yeah, I wanna believe that it feels
good, but it's not actually true.
691
:And I think the more we get to that
conclusion, the better we'll deal with it.
692
:But I think that has to be what,
that has to be our approach.
693
:That has to be our strategy.
694
:That has to be what we do next
if we are to move through it.
695
:Because the algorithms, artificial
intelligence, social media, they're
696
:not interested in making the world.
697
:You could argue in some ways they're
interested in making the world a
698
:better place because of the tools
that what they can allow us to do.
699
:But doom scrolling is
getting worse than ever.
700
:It's harder than ever to tear
yourself off because the algorithms
701
:know what you care about.
702
:what, what you'll click on,
what you'll stay watching.
703
:They are phenomenal at being able to
get guess, what will appeal to you.
704
:And so I think we need to update our
own ability to be able to navigate our
705
:way through this and be able to stop
ourselves from falling into that trap.
706
:So I think the, enemy's getting
stronger, but I believe that
707
:we can get tougher as well.
708
:And by the enemy, I'm not like vilifying
an entire, social media owners or
709
:artificial intelligence owners, right?
710
:I it they're complicated people, right?
711
:And I think it's easy for us to
just go, these are the enemies.
712
:But I think the nature of the way
these things work aren't helpful for
713
:a lot of people with regards to the
impact on mental health and whatnot.
714
:And we need to have the resources in our
own mind to deal with and cope with that.
715
:and that's what I'm trying to do
and that's what a lot of the great
716
:speakers out there are doing.
717
:The speakers, as a speaker, your job
is to share ideas that transform lives.
718
:And to me, the more speakers that
can do that in an impactful way, the
719
:more we can provide people with the
tools they need to get on better with
720
:life, which is really what our job is.
721
:John: I'm glad you said that 'cause
that's exactly what my work's
722
:all about and one of the reasons
why I got into speaking as well.
723
:so in, in terms of that emotive language
and powerful language, even a word like
724
:propaganda is perhaps a little hyperbolic.
725
:was that the, the case with using it
or was there a very specific reason?
726
:Was it more like a wake up, this is like
with your inner propaganda, or did you,
727
:it was just something you saw that was
like, this is what we do to ourselves.
728
:Owen Fitzpatrick: when I, over the
years, obviously, I've been diving into
729
:how depression works and anxiety and
how we talk to ourselves, and lots of
730
:talk about the inner critic self-talk
and the inner critic and whatnot.
731
:And the other critic, I've used it
before, but it never really sat that
732
:for me, because whenever you hear
a critic, my natural tendency is to
733
:argue or to look at the other side.
734
:I don't always believe a critic just
because the critic says what they say.
735
:But when you're in the throes of
depression, and again, I could speak
736
:from experience, at least in my
experience, when I'm in the throes
737
:of depression, the reality is wrong.
738
:it's not that I'm oh,
I'm thinking negatively.
739
:I believe negatively.
740
:I see the world in a negative way.
741
:I see everything as wrong.
742
:It feels true to me that
things are not looking up.
743
:It feels true to me that I'm no good.
744
:It feels true to me, these
things, and it's, I'm convinced.
745
:And so when I was in North
Korea, and this was about nearly
746
:15 years ago, I was in there.
747
:Surrounded by propaganda,
like real obvious propaganda,
748
:listening to a news station
that was very much on, on
749
:message, only one point of view.
750
:and when I came out of, North Korea,
someone said to me, it must have been
751
:crazy over there, an American friend.
752
:And I said, the difference between
North Korea and America is in North
753
:Korea, you've one point of view
in America, you've got two, right?
754
:And I was being glib, but the notion
is that we are almost convinced that
755
:we have the truth, but yet when you
go into a place, everything around
756
:you tells you something else is true.
757
:And then I started to reflect on
my own experiences, struggling with
758
:depression or anxiety or whatnot.
759
:And when I'm in those states,
I am convinced it's true.
760
:It's not an inner critic, I would argue
it's more like an inner dictator that's
761
:talking to me as if this is the reality.
762
:And that's where the notion
of inner propaganda came from.
763
:The, the word propaganda isn't just a,
oh, this is a nice gimmick or a nice name.
764
:It's exactly what it feels like to me.
765
:I don't believe for a second that
we just talk to ourselves and then
766
:we evaluate what our thoughts are.
767
:And, oh, I feel negative now.
768
:So I'm thinking that I don't, at
least that's not been true for me.
769
:I think we convince ourselves of things.
770
:We see it as a reality and as a
result of that, I think that, we build
771
:beliefs that often will hold us back.
772
:And those beliefs then mean the next
time we're feeling bad, that inner
773
:dictator gets, gets power once more.
774
:And I think when you understand how
this works, when you understand the
775
:mechanisms of how this, let's say
dictatorship or inner propaganda
776
:itself works, you recognise it's
not about being free from it.
777
:You're going to have to deal with
the dictator inside your head.
778
:You're gonna have to deal
with the inner propaganda.
779
:But the more you understand it,
the more you understand its tricks,
780
:the more you see through its lies,
the more that gives you respite.
781
:And it doesn't mean that you're
gonna turn around and go from being
782
:depressed to being happy overnight.
783
:But what it means is that you're no longer
as certain that your life is ruined.
784
:You're no longer as certain
that you're no good.
785
:You're no longer as certain
that things won't work out.
786
:And I think that's the key.
787
:Sometimes it's not about building a belief
for people, sometimes it's just giving
788
:people a little bit of a doubt, a seed of
doubt in what they previously believed.
789
:And I think that's the notion of
inner propaganda is to me, a lovely
790
:metaphor to help us to recognise,
hang on, this is propaganda.
791
:It makes, it means I'm not just
listening to my inner critic.
792
:It means that I, this feels real to me and
therefore I could do something about it.
793
:And again, that's why
I wrote the book on it.
794
:John: Yeah.
795
:And so it is like, being able to identify
this and be able to see what's going
796
:on much in the same way as a lot of
critical thinking path allow you to do.
797
:Just having that awareness is enough
to wake you up to a lot of things.
798
:But do you also have, frameworks, ways,
methodologies in your book that are
799
:designed to help people, overcome that?
800
:Or is it primarily like the
awareness will do that job for you?
801
:Owen Fitzpatrick: No, I certainly
have frameworks as well.
802
:I'm more of a frameworks person
than, I would've liked to admit.
803
:I believe that we need
practical tools as well.
804
:I think the awareness is the
most important piece, though.
805
:I think recognising that your brain
is a double agent and it creates
806
:a version of reality for you.
807
:and again, inner propaganda occurs.
808
:That's a big critical piece after that.
809
:I think one of the, for example,
tools I have is called the
810
:belief audit, where instead of
going, okay, what do you believe?
811
:And then what evidence do you have?
812
:Or, challenging the logic instead,
it's what is it that you believe
813
:and what is that doing for you?
814
:it's starting to look for the function.
815
:We start to look at beliefs,
beliefs, not necessarily
816
:factual, but they're functional.
817
:And whenever we go, whenever we just lean
into all of the different, tools that we
818
:have to be able to challenge the belief in
terms of finding the evidence, what we're
819
:doing is we're forgetting about the fact
that the belief fits in with who they are.
820
:And it's a part of how
they feel about themselves.
821
:And therefore, it doesn't matter
how much you challenge the logic or
822
:evidence, they'll dismiss it using,
again, the tools of motivated reasoning.
823
:So what I'll ask is, what is the belief
for what do you believe about this?
824
:And then they'll say it and I'll
say, what does that do for you?
825
:Or what do you want it to do for you?
826
:Like, why choose to believe this?
827
:And it's presupposing that it is
a belief as opposed to the facts.
828
:and what I'm trying to get at is that the
beliefs that we hold, and al back to Al
829
:in his great book, beyond Belief, he talks
about how beliefs are tools, not truths.
830
:and the question is this a useful tool?
831
:Are you using a useful tool in
this situation or in this context?
832
:So that's one example.
833
:Another one is the feels right, fits
in makes sense framework, which is, I'm
834
:believing this, but am I believing this?
835
:Because it just feels right.
836
:is it an emotional truth?
837
:Am I believing it?
838
:'cause I want it to be true?
839
:Is it a desired truth?
840
:Am I believing it because it helps
me fit in with other people, or it's
841
:a shared truth, or am I believing
it because it's a objective truth?
842
:And that's these are what I call
the five, different forms of truth,
843
:which is also, a useful tool.
844
:And one other one, which I think is
quite helpful, is the ability to be able
845
:to qualify the, the language we use.
846
:So there's a, a form of, language,
that, that came about in the:
847
:or so called ePrime 1940s or fifties
848
:called ePrime.
849
:yeah.
850
:By David Blan.
851
:And it's based upon the work of,
Alfred Kazinsky and science and
852
:sanity and stuff about language and
semantics and meaning and all that.
853
:But in a nutshell, it's
English without the verb to be.
854
:And so instead of me saying, this is true,
I need to say, this seems true to me.
855
:And you can also index it as well.
856
:You can say, this seems, true to me today.
857
:So it's very different as
saying, I'll never succeed.
858
:It seems that I'll never
succeed to me today.
859
:And that instantly indexes it
in a world where all of a sudden
860
:there's much more flexibility in it.
861
:You challenge it, a lot more.
862
:And again, this aligns with another
form of reasoning called Bayesian
863
:reasoning by Thomas Bayes and,
incredible, the incredible insights
864
:that are behind a lot of the
scientific inventions we have today.
865
:It's the notion that you hold the belief,
but then you're willing to revise it.
866
:It's what we call a prior, and then you
revise the prior, and as you do so, you
867
:recognise that a belief is just relatively
loosely held that you can change it and
868
:that creates more flexibility as well.
869
:So I think all of those, there's just
some examples of tools in the book.
870
:but my main goal is to help people and
equip people not just with critical
871
:thinking skills, which I think are
really important, but also to get them
872
:to understand how they can change the way
they feel and they can identify their own
873
:identity and they can cultivate something
that allows them to grow into the people
874
:they wanna be, as opposed to holding
themselves back by limiting themselves
875
:with the, the beliefs that, that keep them
trapped in who they think that they are.
876
:John: Great.
877
:Let me, lemme see.
878
:I wanna definitely one throw you time
because I know we're already a little
879
:over the 45 minutes, which need said, have
you got time for one more question or,
880
:Owen Fitzpatrick: of course.
881
:yeah.
882
:No problem.
883
:Yeah.
884
:John: So, my question for you,
because coming in two parts, but
885
:they are very connected, where does
persuasion end and propaganda begin
886
:and how would speakers avoid becoming
propagandists with better stories?
887
:Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure.
888
:Great question.
889
:So we'll talk about persuasion,
manipulation, and propaganda maybe, right?
890
:So persuasion is the ability you have to
change attitudes or change behaviours.
891
:change perspectives.
892
:It's the ability to create
change in somebody else, right?
893
:To change beliefs, change
attitudes, change behaviours.
894
:Manipulation is whatever you can
do to get the results that you want
895
:and dominating the way in which a
person thinks in using deception,
896
:and only caring about what you want.
897
:So people often ask the difference
between influence, ethical influence or
898
:ethical persuasion and, manipulation.
899
:And I always say it's two things.
900
:Number one, it's your intention.
901
:Are you trying to get what you want
and you don't care what they want?
902
:and on number two, are
you using deception?
903
:So to me, the key to effective persuasion
is understanding what the other person
904
:wants and finding a way to get them
what they want while simultaneously
905
:getting what you want as well.
906
:And to me, that's persuasion or ethical.
907
:Persuasion, and not using deception.
908
:In doing so.
909
:When you take propaganda is using
tools of persuasion and manipulation
910
:and whatever you can get your hands
on to be able to dictate the way in
911
:which a person's entire world is.
912
:So propaganda is about,
to me, creating a reality.
913
:And I talk about three
aspects of propaganda.
914
:You've got state media, which is
dominating the airwaves, deciding, exactly
915
:what you want the person to believe and
ensuring that you cover all the bases,
916
:whatever they hear, whatever they see.
917
:It all goes to this state media.
918
:Then there's indoctrination where
you ensure that you master their
919
:identity, who they are as a person.
920
:You make sure that they feel that they
are part of this country and they will do
921
:anything for this country or this nation.
922
:And as a result of that, you are forming
the tribe that you want to lock them
923
:into so that you trap them in that.
924
:And therefore, whatever the tribe
does, they will align with that.
925
:And then finally, truth engineering.
926
:This is the ability to create truth in
real time, to be able to use stories,
927
:narratives, be able to use logical
reasoning again to these folks that
928
:are exposed to state propaganda,
to expose to the state media.
929
:And then that dominates it.
930
:That's where inner propaganda looks
at the fact that we've got internal
931
:state media, which is the feelings
that we feel dictate what we explore
932
:and what we put our attention on and
what we are likely to be open to.
933
:We've got internal indoctrination where
we cultivate beliefs about ourselves,
934
:and again, we align with those beliefs.
935
:And then we've got truth engineering,
which is how we use making sense of the
936
:world and how we use all those tools.
937
:So along the journey of propaganda,
dominating the state, media,
938
:indoctrinating folks into, who they
want them to be, and using truth
939
:engineering, all of that is using
tools of persuasion, using tools of
940
:deception, using tools of manipulation,
using whatever tools that they can
941
:to be able to put across an message.
942
:And the ancient of, I suppose
the, definitely not ancient, but
943
:the definition of propaganda.
944
:I think it was a pope that first
talked about propagating the message
945
:that the notion is of spreading the
message and making sure people aligned
946
:with it and got the message out there.
947
:But it became hijacked and it started
to create a lot of very negative
948
:connotations, especially, during World
War ii, where gobbles being nominated
949
:as the Minister for Propaganda.
950
:But
951
:what we need to recognise is that as
speakers, in order for us to go out.
952
:We are to a degree all propagandists.
953
:Not because we're deceiving or
because we're manipulating, but
954
:we are trying to create a reality
for the folks in that room.
955
:And we are trying to get a point across.
956
:We're not just providing an insight,
we're trying to change their world.
957
:And to me, the best thing we can do as
speakers is to give them ideas, give
958
:them a perception of the way that they
think that can help them to cope with
959
:the challenge that they face in life.
960
:And to a degree, we're not just inspiring
them, we're not just informing them.
961
:we are propagandising them, but
not from a negative perspective
962
:where we using some of the tools.
963
:'cause just because you can use
the tools to be a propagandist,
964
:doesn't mean you always will.
965
:But ultimately our goal is to impact
their lives, impact their realities.
966
:and again, we need to do that because it's
right for them, because we're trying to
967
:help them see a different perspective.
968
:And we also need to invite
them to criticise and critique.
969
:So we're not dictators from that
perspective, from that lens, but
970
:we're trying to change their world.
971
:And to me, every speaker that stands
on stage has a responsibility to
972
:their audience to make every single
person in that audience live a
973
:little bit better as a result.
974
:And I think when we come in with
that attitude and we focus on doing
975
:that, that's where we can really
make a difference to the world.
976
:John: I wholeheartedly agree.
977
:Owen, it is been a, a genuine
pleasure to chat with you.
978
:I've got at least a hundred or more
questions that we have got time for,
979
:but, I hope I might get the chance
to chat with you again sometime.
980
:you, your book is out on the
4th of August Inner Propaganda.
981
:The podcast is already there
for people to go and listen to.
982
:What's the best way for our listeners to
come and connect with you right now and
983
:find out more about what you're doing?
984
:Owen Fitzpatrick: Sure.
985
:So Inner Propaganda.com
986
:is where you can go, and for that,
you'll get access to not only,
987
:you'll be able to get the book there.
988
:you could buy it on Barnes and
Noble or Amazon or wherever,
989
:and wherever books are sold.
990
:But if you put in your receipt from
wherever, and it doesn't even have to
991
:be an online, it could be somewhere
you buy it offline or whatnot.
992
:But, if you do that, if you
go to innerpropaganda.com,
993
:you get a free masterclass, a 90 minute
masterclass, all about inner propaganda.
994
:you'll also get a field notes guide,
a workbook, which again walks you
995
:through a lot of the exercise, some
the exercises I touched on today.
996
:and it also, there'll be like a behind
the scenes interview that'll be released
997
:a few weeks after launch, as well as,
me popping in there, for, a few times
998
:to be able to connect in with it.
999
:So my launch team, if you
will, that you'll be part of.
:
00:51:51,263 --> 00:51:52,343
So my launch community.
:
00:51:52,343 --> 00:51:53,633
would love people to go there.
:
00:51:53,663 --> 00:51:54,903
I'm also an own owenfitzpatrick.com.
:
00:51:55,883 --> 00:51:57,083
I've got a LinkedIn as well.
:
00:51:57,383 --> 00:51:58,583
I've got an Instagram as well.
:
00:51:58,643 --> 00:51:59,753
I've got a YouTube as well.
:
00:51:59,963 --> 00:52:01,413
So I'm around a bit,
:
00:52:01,551 --> 00:52:02,601
John: Could find you everywhere.
:
00:52:02,643 --> 00:52:02,931
Yeah.
:
00:52:02,943 --> 00:52:03,603
Owen Fitzpatrick: exactly.
:
00:52:04,521 --> 00:52:04,791
John: Good.
:
00:52:04,791 --> 00:52:05,961
I, and I recommend it as well.
:
00:52:05,961 --> 00:52:08,481
I know I've been following you on
Instagram for quite some time, but
:
00:52:08,531 --> 00:52:11,621
I do find a lot of, a lot of other
places your stuff pops up as well now.
:
00:52:11,771 --> 00:52:16,271
Do value it and we'll be highly looking
forward to getting my hands on the book.
:
00:52:16,271 --> 00:52:19,271
I'll be going and checking out the
website for all the extras as well.
:
00:52:19,571 --> 00:52:22,841
I thank you so much for coming
and stopping by the Professional
:
00:52:22,841 --> 00:52:25,841
Speaking Show and I hope we get to
welcome you back again in the future.
:
00:52:25,841 --> 00:52:26,621
Best of luck with the book
:
00:52:26,921 --> 00:52:29,321
Owen Fitzpatrick: Thank you so much
John, and thanks to all the listeners,
:
00:52:29,321 --> 00:52:32,313
but I really appreciate you and keep
up the amazing work with the podcast.
:
00:52:32,592 --> 00:52:32,982
John: Thank you.
:
00:52:33,545 --> 00:52:38,105
A lot of the topics that Owen and I
discussed in this episode are things that
:
00:52:38,225 --> 00:52:42,665
really got me started doing the podcast
in the first place, understanding the
:
00:52:42,665 --> 00:52:49,355
mechanics of influence and how they fit
into the speaking world, and really not
:
00:52:49,355 --> 00:52:56,765
having that much of an idea back in late
::
00:52:57,065 --> 00:53:01,325
But to have this conversation
now to really see how much more I
:
00:53:01,325 --> 00:53:04,985
get and understand about this and
how much Owen was really able to
:
00:53:04,995 --> 00:53:06,885
share that was very elucidating.
:
00:53:07,295 --> 00:53:09,995
I don't think if you listened to that
episode and you didn't come away with
:
00:53:09,995 --> 00:53:15,125
anything useful or valuable or at
least interesting and challenging for
:
00:53:15,125 --> 00:53:18,365
you, then you maybe need to go back
and re-listen to it because there's so
:
00:53:18,365 --> 00:53:22,055
much in there and things in there that
I'm definitely going back and taking
:
00:53:22,055 --> 00:53:25,055
a look at and, and reconsidering.
:
00:53:25,325 --> 00:53:28,115
And that's the joy of being able to
have these kinds of conversations.
:
00:53:28,115 --> 00:53:33,375
That, and it has been one of my
favourite episodes to record and, and
:
00:53:33,375 --> 00:53:35,165
to shame with you in quite some time.
:
00:53:35,165 --> 00:53:38,310
And certainly there's, there's
more to come, there's certainly
:
00:53:38,345 --> 00:53:41,555
more great guests to come, and I
don't want you to miss any of that.
:
00:53:41,555 --> 00:53:44,045
So if you're not already
subscribed to the show now, it
:
00:53:44,045 --> 00:53:45,635
would be a great pun to do that.
:
00:53:45,755 --> 00:53:49,925
And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts
or Spotify or a platform where you can
:
00:53:49,925 --> 00:53:51,935
rate the show, that would be great too.
:
00:53:51,935 --> 00:53:55,385
And of course, if you're on YouTube, if
you're watching the show on YouTube, you
:
00:53:55,385 --> 00:54:00,005
can subscribe and give the show, give
the episode a like, and maybe even a
:
00:54:00,005 --> 00:54:02,345
comment as to what you found most useful.
:
00:54:02,355 --> 00:54:06,015
In the next episode, and then be
talking a bit about keynotes and keynote
:
00:54:06,015 --> 00:54:09,975
structure and what does and doesn't
work like some of the things that I
:
00:54:09,975 --> 00:54:15,395
highly recommend avoiding and very much
touching on Why it best not to write
:
00:54:15,395 --> 00:54:19,925
your keynotes with AI too much at the
moment and some of the problems that come
:
00:54:19,925 --> 00:54:22,835
from doing that that I've been seeing
with clients that I work with with lot.
:
00:54:22,835 --> 00:54:24,935
So hope you'll join us for that.
:
00:54:24,935 --> 00:54:27,215
More guests coming up in future episodes.
:
00:54:27,515 --> 00:54:30,035
I'd love to know what you thought
about Owen's episode today, so
:
00:54:30,035 --> 00:54:31,415
please do share in the comments.
:
00:54:31,715 --> 00:54:33,755
I'll look forward to
seeing you again very soon.
:
00:54:33,875 --> 00:54:36,485
Wherever you're going, whatever
you're doing, have a wonderful
:
00:54:36,485 --> 00:54:38,885
rest of your week and go and do
something worth talking about.
:
00:54:38,945 --> 00:54:39,605
See you next time.
