From Invisible to Influential: Mastering Brand Clarity with Sapna Pieroux

John: 00:00:00

Welcome to Professional Speaking.

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I'm John Ball.

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This is the show where we explore what

it really takes to become a speaker

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people remember, recommend, and book.

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Not just someone who gives a good talk

and then disappears back into the noise.

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And that noise is part of the problem

because plenty of capable speakers are

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still struggling to be seen clearly.

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They may have the talent, the

ideas, and even the experience.

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But if the market is confused about

who they are, or what they stand for,

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they often remain less visible, and

less influential than they should be.

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That's why this episode matters.

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My guest is Sapna Pieroux, a personal

and business brand consultant, author,

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and speaker who helps entrepreneurs

and business leaders get genuine

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brand clarity, stand out and grow.

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Together we unpack what brand actually

means, why branding is only one

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part of the picture, how to think

about your public persona without

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becoming performative, and what

speakers can do to build visibility

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and trust in a crowded marketplace.

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So if you've ever felt like

your work deserves to travel

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further than it currently does,

this conversation is for you.

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Let's get started.

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I am very happy to welcome to

my little virtual studio on the

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internet here as Sapna Pieroux

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Sapna Pieroux: Thank you very

much for having me, John.

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John: it's a real delight to connect and,

and we, took a while to get connected, but

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when we actually did, it was completely

worthwhile because the stuff that you

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talk about and how you help people

is very, very relevant to my audience

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because you're already helping people

with their branding, with being seen.

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Can you give us a bit of background,

what is it you actually do?

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Who do you help?

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Sapna Pieroux: So I am a personal

and business brand consultant,

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author and speaker, and I help

entrepreneurs and business leaders

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to get real brand clarity on who they

are, stand out in their industry and

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supercharge their business growth.

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John: oh yeah, that's what I need

supercharge a bit of my business

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growth, thank you very much.

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what are the things that we should be

really thinking about in order to do that?

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how do we, start being able to be

seen and have some brand awareness or

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some actual branding for our business?

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Sapna Pieroux: So it's

funny you should ask that.

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am I allowed to plug my book?

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John: Oh, go ahead.

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Sapna Pieroux: I've just done it anyway.

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I just asked the question

and then did it anyway.

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So let's get Visible is the book

that I wrote, I've sort 30 years

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experience building brands.

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Started off, in advertising, like in

marketing and advertising, working

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for big brands, Salis Radio Group

and EMAP Advertising, et cetera.

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And some of my clients were like

L'Oreal, Sony Erickson, Mercedes.

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So I know a lot about brand.

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Then post kids.

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I started my own business from home

and started creating solopreneurs,

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entrepreneurs, business owners.

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2019 I wrote my book, which came out in

: 2020

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what it is I do and how I do it.

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So I have a vision process

which I've created.

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vision process is six steps

to building your brand.

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And, and this works for, it was written

for a, from a business brand point of

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view, but I've since adapted it and

it works for personal brand as well.

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a broad brush, strokes, vision

stands for visualize in a brand

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standout image, output, and nurture.

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So the first three steps.

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Are all strategic about getting

your strategy and getting your

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ducks in a row, as you said.

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VV for visualize is about

understanding your brand vision.

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Where, how is it that you want to be seen?

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What do you want to be known for?

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I get my clients to do, a little

exercise, which I call the fab

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exercise, five aspirational

brands, and to look at five brands.

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Now, if you're, if you're thinking about

yourself as a speaker, then you look at

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maybe other speakers, or other people

in, with a profile and you kind of go,

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well, I'd like to be seen as like them.

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No, it's not about copying them,

it's about being influenced.

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And that's why I I five, you're not

just like blatantly copying one of

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them, but you can be influenced and from

others that are ahead of us in the, so.

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Have a look at them and kind of

go, well, what are they doing

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to build their personal brand?

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Let's learn from them.

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How are they showing up?

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What's their messaging?

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How do they, what are they

doing it through video?

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Are they doing it through writing?

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Are they doing it through

podcast appearances?

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What's their, what's their method of

actually getting their message out there?

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we look at five of those and,

and it's about creating a recipe

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that works for that individual

and what you want to achieve.

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we kind of get that all together and go,

well, okay, if you wanna be seen in this

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certain way, then maybe you should be,

if they're putting out video once a week

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or, showing up on Instagram, or maybe you

need to build some of that into your plan.

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So that, that's visualize is,

is like that, that the big.

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Brand aspiration.

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Then we look at the company vision,

where you are now in your company.

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could be the company of one or your, your

actual company, and where do you want to

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be in the next three to five years time?

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because any brand that we build has to

work for you, at least for the next three

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to five years time, so that you're not

having to, change lanes or rebrand or,

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you, you've gotta have that consistency

so people can get to know who you

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are, and what, what is you stand for.

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Obviously your business will evolve and

your brand should be able to move with

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it, but it's good to have an intention

as to where you're going in order to

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build that brand to help you support you.

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John: Yeah.

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I can fully, fully

appreciate those things.

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I think if we don't have, a path laid

out for ourselves, we don't have any

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idea which direction we want to point

ourselves in, how on earth are we

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gonna know what we're gonna get to?

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It's undoubtedly it changes

along the way, right?

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I mean, it's Yeah,

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Sapna Pieroux: yeah,

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John: yeah, yeah.

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Life changes, right?

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Like yeah.

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But it's like, put yourself in this

direction and let's see where you end up.

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Yeah.

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Sapna Pieroux: And let's go.

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Yeah.

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Because it has to be, if I, especially

if I'm creating a brand, because

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I, I not, I don't do the strategy.

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I also design, we kind of need to

know, not just where you're going,

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but also the, the third part of

the visualized, process is, or the

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visualized step is your customer vision.

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So it's like, who are your ideal clients?

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Where are they before they work with

you or before they hear your message?

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And how do you want them to feel

as a result of, or how is their

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life gonna change as a result of

working with you, hearing you speak,

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reading your book, whatever it is.

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So that's the, the third part of

visualize, and these are all the

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big picture things, but also what

are they gonna be saying about you?

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What's your reputation going to be?

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What's your, and then let's

take that less fur further,

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what's your legacy going to be?

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How are you gonna be remembered?

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And all of that comes in.

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That's very big part of the vision

process, which is visualize,

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John: it seems like a really big thing

to grasp, but grasp our heads around.

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But I mean, it is good that we're

breaking it down into smaller, smaller

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chunks here to work smaller chunks.

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Yeah.

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To work through it.

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I wonder like for, for our listener,

that sometimes there's some

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confusion around brand and branding.

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Sapna Pieroux: mm.

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John: Could, could you

just clarify that for us?

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Like we're talking about brand

here rather than branding.

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Sapna Pieroux: Yes.

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branding is part of the vision process

as well, but that doesn't come until

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step, just the, the fourth step.

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So this is all about

getting brand clarity.

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quickly, if I can just do the

I and the s that will, that

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will help us on this as well.

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So the I is literally about finding

and defining your brand values, your

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brand personality, and your brand voice.

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Now, as a speaker, the brand personality

and voice is gonna be very, very closely

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aligned to you, yourself, obviously.

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But it's a curated, it's about curating

who that, what that speaker persona

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is, because we're all very different

people when we're with our partners,

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with our children, with our parents,

with our friends down the pub.

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not everybody has to see

all of that on stage.

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So it's about curating the side of

you, the professional side of you and

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persona of you that you are putting

out there in your brand communications.

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We can't put our whole

messy self out there.

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It's too confusing, and overwhelming.

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And then s for stand out is how are

we gonna get you to stand out in your

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industry from a personal brand point of

view that is, what awards met you when,

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or, books that you read or podcasts that

you appear on, or what are the, the things

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that people are gonna remember you for?

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collect your claim to fames if you like.

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but when I'm look working on a

business brand, it's also about how

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is that brand going to stand out.

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So we look at the branding

of other companies.

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So the difference, to go back to your

question between brand and branding

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is brand is the whole experience is

every single touch point of you and

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your business is part of your brand.

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The branding is how we

make it visually tangible.

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John: Yeah.

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Sapna Pieroux: So it's

the visual aspect of it.

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if you are saying that you are

professional, and at the highest.

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Point of your game, and then people

go on your website and it's a bit

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dated and it takes ages to load up.

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photography's four, four years out of

date, you've lost that hair or it's

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a different color, and the logo's a

bit crap then that is not actually

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putting across professional vibes.

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So there's a disconnect between Yeah,

there's a, there's a Venn diagram in

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my book, which is about do say, see

it's like everything you do, everything

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you say and everything you see have

to align in order to build trust.

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Yeah.

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And if one of those is out of kilter,

then it, it actually just destroys trust.

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John: Right.

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Like, like your Tinder date with

a 10-year-old photo that shows

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up looking completely different,

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Sapna Pieroux: right?

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Absolutely.

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Right.

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Absolutely.

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you're not who you said you were.

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John: misrepresentation.

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Yeah.

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Sapna Pieroux: Misrepresentation.

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But it's the same as a speaker.

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And I've kind of, I, I work with

stylists and, not just for myself

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personally, but also with clients.

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a stylist called Kay Korsh and

she talks about, yeah, she's.

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She's been on.

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Yeah.

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Great.

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I thought 'cause she is a stylist

for speakers, which is why I

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mentioned her in particular.

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the fact that if you look dated, people

will assume your ideas are dated as well.

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If you want to be seen as forward

thinking in your, in your ideas and,

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and being seen as a thought leader,

you can't be wearing dated, outfits or

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things that just don't, don't, don't

give you that professional modern look.

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And it's the same with your branding,

the visual representation of your

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brand, visual touch point when you

go on your LinkedIn and on your

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website and any brochures you give

out your business card, anything has

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got to look professional as well.

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John: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I sadly had to retire my bow

ties after speaking with Kay.

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But yes, it's, it's a very,

it is a very important aspect.

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lemme ask you this, you said something

that, that really hit from you because

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this is something that I've said as

well and I've had pushback on, and maybe

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you have as well, about having this

curated version of ourselves online.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because we hear so many people talking

about, you've gotta be authentic,

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you've gotta be your real self.

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You can't be true to who you are.

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And, and then we're kind of saying,

well, you actually need to curate a bit.

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We don't wanna put everything out there.

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you need to hold some stuff

back, and you need to decide

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how you want people to see you.

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And some people really don't like that.

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They think it's dishonest or, or that

you are creating, creating a character

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rather than being true to who you are.

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Now, I don't think, I don't think

that at all, but I wonder what

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your perspective is on this.

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Sapna Pieroux: I call BS on that.

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people kind of go, oh, you're

gonna be your authentic self.

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And it's funny 'cause I've just come off

another podcast recording and she was

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like, you are really a authentic, I'm

apparently really authentic because when

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you meet me in real post, in real life,

I'm pretty much as you'd see me net right

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now, but, if you went into an office,

and I know most of the people that we,

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that you, you deal with are entrepreneurs

and, and don't have to go into an office.

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But certainly when you go into an office,

there's a certain way of behaving, which

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is called a professional way of being.

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Like you, you go in there and

you're, you are being professional.

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And I think that's, that's all I mean

by a curated version of yourself is

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that you remember who it is that you're

talking to and you use the appropriate

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language and behaviors that is gonna

connect with that target audience.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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not about, not not being authentic.

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It's about, I'm a different

person when I'm with my children

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than I am when I'm on stage.

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And, and it's, we switch up, we,

we switch personas all the time.

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When you're with your parents, you

are a completely different person

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than when you're with your partner.

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When you're with your

friends down the pub.

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Like I said, it's just, we all do it.

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as soon as we kind of call it out and

say, well, you have to curate your per,

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people are gonna go, oh, never do that.

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I always show up as my whole self.

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If you did your whole self, there'd

be about five or six different

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personas you'd be bringing to stage.

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I guarantee if you brought all the

parts of you, you don't need all

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the parts of you for every single.

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It's like, think of yourself

as like a Swiss Army knife.

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I've never used this analogy before,

but you're not gonna use all the

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tools to do all, every single job.

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So why would you do that with

your personality as well?

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John: Yeah, they're all aspects of you,

but they don't all work at the same time.

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Yeah, right.

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Sapna Pieroux: Exactly.

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John: That's a very

good, very good analogy.

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Yeah.

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I just made

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Sapna Pieroux: it up, but I

think I'm gonna use it again.

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John: I think you should.

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I think it, it wears very well for

understanding that I, I might well borrow

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it off you and, and, you are allowed if

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Sapna Pieroux: you can

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John: credit me at the amazing.

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Exactly.

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Absolutely.

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'cause I, I really like that.

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and I do think it's important.

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You we're not the same person.

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and I, when I go, I do

comedy stages and stuff.

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When I go up on a comedy stage, I'm

not the same person as I'm delivering

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a keynote on a delivering keynote.

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I'm not the same person.

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I'm on a coaching call.

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You know, it's that different aspects.

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Does it make who?

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Sapna Pieroux: Q inauthentic.

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It doesn't make you inauthentic,

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John: right?

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Yeah.

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Different energies.

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It's just d different appropriateness,

propriety and all that kind of stuff.

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Yeah.

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And, yeah, I think that that's,

this is what gets lost, gets

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lost in the conversation.

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It's still you being you, but I think

maybe it's sort of come from some of

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the aspects of, and we know people.

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Sapna Pieroux: yeah, I mean,

I think that's a great formula

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if you are just getting started

and you dunno where to start.

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It's that it for me, when you just

said that, I felt very restricted.

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I was like, oh, just five.

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And like, and I've got

to do it in this order.

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about sharing a little

bit about who you are.

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You can't not bring your personality

into your business because ultimately

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people connect with people and you're

not gonna connect with someone who

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doesn't show their personality.

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If you're just there talking about

facts and figures and, just stats.

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And I, I wanna know who

I'm gonna be working with.

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: 00:14:21

Are you, are you a nice human?

317

: 00:14:23

Are you a nice, what are your values?

318

: 00:14:24

like, do you Right.

319

: 00:14:26

if you are, if you are like, a neo-Nazi,

I don't wanna be working with you.

320

: 00:14:29

Not that anybody's gonna be talking

about that on, on LinkedIn, but

321

: 00:14:32

John: same here.

322

: 00:14:33

Yes.

323

: 00:14:33

Sapna Pieroux: Right.

324

: 00:14:34

But there's like, there's aspects of

the person I wanna know that somebody is

325

: 00:14:39

inclusive and that wants a farer world.

326

: 00:14:42

And, that's, that's just one example.

327

: 00:14:44

I wanna know that they love animals

and that they, they're not like kicking

328

: 00:14:48

puppies down the street or anything.

329

: 00:14:50

I just wanna, I wanna know these

aspects of them because it gives

330

: 00:14:53

me a hint as to whether they're

a decent human being or not.

331

: 00:14:56

John: Mm-hmm.

332

: 00:14:56

Sapna Pieroux: Just simple as that.

333

: 00:14:57

So I, I like that.

334

: 00:14:58

John: Yeah.

335

: 00:14:59

Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.

336

: 00:15:00

John: Let me, let me ask you something,

'cause this is kind of, following

337

: 00:15:02

video may be a little tangent, bit

tangential to the conversation,

338

: 00:15:06

but I think it might be, we love a

339

: 00:15:07

Sapna Pieroux: tangent.

340

: 00:15:07

We love a

341

: 00:15:08

John: tangent.

342

: 00:15:08

Oh, good, good.

343

: 00:15:09

I hope you'll like this one.

344

: 00:15:10

I, I have the opinion that.

345

: 00:15:13

Who you associate with

professionally does matter.

346

: 00:15:16

And this kind of relates to what we were

just saying, like if people, if there are

347

: 00:15:19

people who you are pr who maybe you don't

really trust professionally or you think

348

: 00:15:24

they're a bit dodgy or slimy or, super

salesy or anything like that, or they're

349

: 00:15:29

not, they don't hold the same values

that you do, but they may be considered

350

: 00:15:33

successful, they do really well.

351

: 00:15:35

And so you do events and

you associate with them.

352

: 00:15:39

I just can't, I think you can't help

but be, people will make the assumption

353

: 00:15:43

that you are like them because they

are part of your circle, even if it is

354

: 00:15:47

just a professional circle, even though

you could be completely different.

355

: 00:15:51

So I do have this thing of like, well,

who, for me, it's very important, like

356

: 00:15:54

who I connect with, who I work with, who

I work for, that they have these things

357

: 00:15:59

in, in that I, I feel comfortable with

that because if I don't, I'm gonna.

358

: 00:16:05

Pull away, I'm gonna distance

myself because I don't Yeah.

359

: 00:16:08

And I've done that many times.

360

: 00:16:09

I don't want to associate, I, I don't

want people to associate me with them.

361

: 00:16:14

Is that kind of a, where you

would go with that as well?

362

: 00:16:17

Sapna Pieroux: absolutely.

363

: 00:16:18

I mean, I think I, I only associate with

people that I, I like, if I find out,

364

: 00:16:25

sometimes I get drawn into somebody's

web and, and you kind of like, they

365

: 00:16:30

lure you in and then you realize, yeah.

366

: 00:16:32

When they, when you're behind

the curtain that they're not

367

: 00:16:35

actually a very nice person.

368

: 00:16:37

they're a bit mercenary and their

motivation isn't quite where

369

: 00:16:43

you'd want to align yourself.

370

: 00:16:44

And then I just pull away.

371

: 00:16:44

I don't, I don't, you don't have

to be, there's so many decent

372

: 00:16:47

human beings on this planet.

373

: 00:16:50

Ultimately it comes down to trust.

374

: 00:16:52

And I don't personally feel that

I want to work with somebody

375

: 00:16:55

that I have to doubt their trust.

376

: 00:16:58

If it's like, do I give this person

my money or do I take money from

377

: 00:17:02

this person and can I trust them?

378

: 00:17:03

I'm not sure then that's,

that's a red flag for me.

379

: 00:17:06

John: I think this relationship part

or being clear on who we're is super

380

: 00:17:11

important in connecting with the people

who we are going to want to work with.

381

: 00:17:16

But here's where my question comes now,

finally, How do we actually get who we

382

: 00:17:22

are out in front of the people who we

want to be connecting with, so that, so

383

: 00:17:27

that we can connect with them and they

can see, hey, I'm one of the good guys.

384

: 00:17:32

Sapna Pieroux: Oh, wow.

385

: 00:17:32

Okay.

386

: 00:17:33

again, that comes down to

reputation, doesn't it?

387

: 00:17:36

I mean, being a decent human being is one

of the, and aligning yourself with other

388

: 00:17:41

decent human beings, I think, the company

you keep is a good indicator if you, if

389

: 00:17:47

you are not that well known, make sure

that you, the people that you are aligning

390

: 00:17:51

with are known, at least even if they're

not well known and known for delivering a

391

: 00:17:57

or use, are known for coming up with the

goods, are known for being trustworthy.

392

: 00:18:01

and make sure that you are as

well, because you don't wanna

393

: 00:18:03

be tarnishing their reputation.

394

: 00:18:05

these things aren't built overnight.

395

: 00:18:07

Trust isn't an in

instantly doing the work.

396

: 00:18:10

Like, when I talked about the aspirational

brands and looking at the people that you.

397

: 00:18:15

That you follow and that you

wanna be more alike, but then

398

: 00:18:18

you, it's not just about facade.

399

: 00:18:19

You've actually gotta be it and do it.

400

: 00:18:21

And again, back to do, say, see is

everything you do, everything you say

401

: 00:18:25

and everything you see have to align.

402

: 00:18:27

You can't say that you are professional

and trustworthy and then not be it,

403

: 00:18:32

because that's where the disconnect is.

404

: 00:18:34

you can't say you're professional and

then have a crappy looking brand and

405

: 00:18:38

turn up, in rags for your, or like

torn stuff or stuff with food stains

406

: 00:18:42

on and say that you are a professional.

407

: 00:18:44

So all of these things align and you've

just got to do it consistently in

408

: 00:18:49

order to build that trust over time.

409

: 00:18:51

But, trust is built, especially

now we're bombarded with so many.

410

: 00:18:55

I, I did some, I was looking

at some research the other day

411

: 00:18:58

in terms of, how we stand out.

412

: 00:19:00

We are, we scroll the height of Mount

Everest every 20 days on our phones.

413

: 00:19:08

John: Wow.

414

: 00:19:08

Sapna Pieroux: And so

that's a lot, isn't it?

415

: 00:19:11

it takes people 40 days on average to get

to Basecamp and they've trained, but also

416

: 00:19:16

our thumbs are doing better than that.

417

: 00:19:18

but it's, it's more about the fact

that this, we've got so many messages

418

: 00:19:22

bombarding us, that consistency.

419

: 00:19:25

If you are a personal brand and you're

showing up with a consistency of message

420

: 00:19:30

over and over again, that's where

people's gonna help people trust you

421

: 00:19:33

because they know what you stand for,

knowing what you stand for, and not,

422

: 00:19:38

changing your mind every Yes, we, our

thoughts can evolve and change a bit

423

: 00:19:42

like we talked about our brand journey.

424

: 00:19:44

And evolve over time.

425

: 00:19:46

But to just suddenly go off on

a tangent and then not know when

426

: 00:19:49

people dunno what you stand for,

they're not gonna build trust.

427

: 00:19:51

So consistency and knowing who you are,

knowing what you want to achieve, knowing

428

: 00:19:56

where you wanna go are all parts of being

able to know what's right and actually

429

: 00:20:00

tuning in and understanding your values.

430

: 00:20:02

this is the work that I do with

clients, helps 'em tune into their

431

: 00:20:05

values and actually what they want.

432

: 00:20:06

And then it helps them know,

is this, is this actually

433

: 00:20:09

aligned with where I want to go?

434

: 00:20:11

Is this gonna help me with my North

Star or is it gonna take me off off?

435

: 00:20:16

should I really be doing this work If

it doesn't align with my values, that

436

: 00:20:19

makes it a lot easier to, to say no to.

437

: 00:20:22

John: It does, and, and in a world

where there's so much noise online and

438

: 00:20:26

so many people trying to get attention

and be noticed, what are the things you

439

: 00:20:32

think we can do to cut through so that

we're not gonna just feel like we're

440

: 00:20:36

shouting into the void is sort of saying

you don't have to, necessarily always

441

: 00:20:40

pay for the attention, but, but we can

actually be seen and being consistent

442

: 00:20:44

because I think sometimes there's a

danger, for people of not getting enough

443

: 00:20:48

progress in the time space that they

would hope to make progress and then

444

: 00:20:52

think that they have to change everything.

445

: 00:20:54

but it often, it is the case that they

just haven't stuck with it long enough or

446

: 00:20:57

they haven't been doing the right things.

447

: 00:20:59

So what, what would be your recommendation

for, like, where, where should they

448

: 00:21:05

be aiming to make themselves visible?

449

: 00:21:09

Sapna Pieroux: I would say it goes

back to that visualized thing.

450

: 00:21:11

Look at what you wanna achieve first.

451

: 00:21:12

It's gonna be a different answer

for every single individual.

452

: 00:21:16

but if you look at your fab brands,

look at your five aspirational

453

: 00:21:19

brands, the people that are out there

doing it, like you want to be seen.

454

: 00:21:24

Show.

455

: 00:21:24

See, look at what they're

doing and analyze it.

456

: 00:21:27

Write it all down.

457

: 00:21:27

Where are they showing up?

458

: 00:21:28

How are they showing up?

459

: 00:21:29

What are they doing?

460

: 00:21:30

Are they producing video?

461

: 00:21:31

Are they producing written content?

462

: 00:21:32

Are they doing live speaking?

463

: 00:21:34

try and map that out for five

individuals that you look up to and

464

: 00:21:38

see what they're doing and learn from

that and put your own plan together.

465

: 00:21:41

All work with me and I'll help you.

466

: 00:21:43

But this is what I help people do

to kind of formulate like, okay,

467

: 00:21:46

how are we gonna be showing it?

468

: 00:21:47

And then that once you've got a

plan, rather than trying to do all

469

: 00:21:49

the things you are doing, the, the,

the things that we've mapped out for

470

: 00:21:54

you, you don't have to do all the

things when you've got clarity of

471

: 00:21:56

your message as well, and clarity

as to what you want to be known for.

472

: 00:22:00

All of this stuff boils down to

just doing it over and over again.

473

: 00:22:04

You have to repeat the same

messages over and over and over

474

: 00:22:08

again before people get it.

475

: 00:22:09

You can't, there's no point just putting

out one, two, or three posts and then

476

: 00:22:12

going, oh, nobody, nobody bought my thing.

477

: 00:22:15

Nobody hired me.

478

: 00:22:17

but I think people give up too soon

because we all buy into this, well,

479

: 00:22:22

we don't buy into it, but we see an

awful lot of overnight successes and,

480

: 00:22:26

people who went viral and and then

this exploded and, and it's like, it

481

: 00:22:30

doesn't happen like that for most of us.

482

: 00:22:32

It's like hard graft

over not months, years.

483

: 00:22:36

and showing up and being

consistent and being trustworthy

484

: 00:22:38

and delivering for the goods.

485

: 00:22:39

And it's everything.

486

: 00:22:40

And it's a lot, and maybe some people

aren't cut out for it if they think that

487

: 00:22:43

that's, that it's just gonna be, I say

I'm a speaker and then I get booked.

488

: 00:22:48

That's just not how it works.

489

: 00:22:50

John: Sometimes some of the issues that

I see speakers encountering are along,

490

: 00:22:56

are kind of along the lines of they, they

have a, an idea of what they want to take

491

: 00:23:02

out to the world, into, to the market.

492

: 00:23:05

but it's sometimes what they

want isn't what is needed.

493

: 00:23:10

and, and I think this is, maybe you've

encountered this as well, like people

494

: 00:23:13

get a bit hooked in on like, well,

this is what I want to give people.

495

: 00:23:16

This is what I wanna talk about

and take out into the world.

496

: 00:23:19

but people aren't buying.

497

: 00:23:21

And usually that to me is that that's

one of the biggest disconnects.

498

: 00:23:24

Like, well, they don't understand

why they need it, would be the thing.

499

: 00:23:28

or they don't see the need.

500

: 00:23:30

They just, at the moment they

501

: 00:23:30

Sapna Pieroux: don't the,

they don't see the benefit.

502

: 00:23:32

I mean, it may, it may be that

what you're peddling is actually a

503

: 00:23:35

crock of, it might be a bad idea.

504

: 00:23:37

It might be a bad idea.

505

: 00:23:38

Or you might have just not

framed it, it correctly.

506

: 00:23:42

And again, knowing your brand, knowing

what you want to try and achieve, and

507

: 00:23:46

understanding your audience again,

well in that visualized bit, what,

508

: 00:23:49

what's the thing that they want?

509

: 00:23:52

framing it like that, the amount, even

when I'm doing people's branding and

510

: 00:23:55

it's like, say, what have your, what

do your clients think of your brand?

511

: 00:23:59

the amount of people that go, I

hadn't even considered what my

512

: 00:24:01

clients thought about my brand.

513

: 00:24:03

I hadn't even considered it.

514

: 00:24:04

I would imagine it's the same with a

lot of people who want to speak and

515

: 00:24:07

spit, want to speak about their thing.

516

: 00:24:09

I hadn't even considered that.

517

: 00:24:10

People might not want to hear it.

518

: 00:24:12

It's me.

519

: 00:24:12

It's really interesting.

520

: 00:24:13

So yeah, finding out actually

what your, what your client

521

: 00:24:16

needs might be a good point.

522

: 00:24:17

And then it, it might be the same

talk, but it's about how you frame

523

: 00:24:20

it to make it appeal to them.

524

: 00:24:24

John: Yeah.

525

: 00:24:24

It's like sell, sell them what

they want, then give them what they

526

: 00:24:26

need, which is, which is usually

a, a good philosophy to have.

527

: 00:24:31

Yeah.

528

: 00:24:31

I, I wonder this, like from, from your

experience of working with people,

529

: 00:24:35

what are the aspects of the process

that you, that you take them through

530

: 00:24:39

that are usually most surprising for

them or where they get the biggest

531

: 00:24:42

like aha moment kind of things?

532

: 00:24:47

Sapna Pieroux: it is that visualized

bit is the fab brand exercise where they

533

: 00:24:51

kind of, where we just break things down.

534

: 00:24:53

Because I think where when people

kind of go, I wanna be, I wanna

535

: 00:24:57

be a successful speaker, or I want

to be, it's like, well, but how do

536

: 00:25:00

we, how do we eat that elephant?

537

: 00:25:03

How do we actually, let's

start, let's start breaking

538

: 00:25:05

that down into the components.

539

: 00:25:07

Oh, let's look at successful

people and see what they've done

540

: 00:25:10

to do that, because nobody woke up

541

: 00:25:12

and became famous, overnight, nobody,

very few people, unless you were born

542

: 00:25:17

into, I suppose, I suppose Prince

Andrew got quite famous, didn't he?

543

: 00:25:21

Um, for all sorts of reasons.

544

: 00:25:23

But, yeah.

545

: 00:25:23

but you have to kind of break it down and

then kind of go, well, how, if I wanna

546

: 00:25:28

be up here, how am I going to do that?

547

: 00:25:30

And what are the steps

that I'm gonna take?

548

: 00:25:32

And that's, planning out your path

and then sticking to that path.

549

: 00:25:37

And yes, as I say, we can have a couple

of years off there, as life might take

550

: 00:25:41

us, but just putting one foot in front

of the other and keeping directionally

551

: 00:25:45

correct are the things that are

gonna get you closer to your goal.

552

: 00:25:49

John: Right.

553

: 00:25:50

I'm not sure

554

: 00:25:50

Sapna Pieroux: if that's answered.

555

: 00:25:51

John: No, it does because it, it, it

really just sort of reinforces the,

556

: 00:25:54

the message that's been in there

that you've been saying, path has

557

: 00:25:57

already been trodden ahead of you.

558

: 00:25:58

Yeah.

559

: 00:25:59

It's that other people, other people

have already done this successfully.

560

: 00:26:04

so take a look at a bunch of

them and look what they've been

561

: 00:26:06

doing to get there successfully.

562

: 00:26:08

Get that right

563

: 00:26:09

Sapna Pieroux: and

564

: 00:26:10

John: try doing some of that.

565

: 00:26:11

Sapna Pieroux: And you'll

see a body of work, right?

566

: 00:26:13

You'll see a body of work.

567

: 00:26:15

They'll, you'll see, you can scroll

all the way down to their Instagram

568

: 00:26:18

when they first started it, I'll bet

you they started with zero followers,

569

: 00:26:21

just the same as anybody else, right?

570

: 00:26:23

So anybody who's got like 27

million followers on Instagram

571

: 00:26:27

had to set up that account at

some point and had zero followers.

572

: 00:26:31

go back and you'll see how

rubbish their early posts were.

573

: 00:26:34

And, and it's about that consistency

and showing up that actually you

574

: 00:26:39

hone your message, you get better.

575

: 00:26:41

You look at what works,

look at what doesn't work.

576

: 00:26:43

get to get to know your audience better.

577

: 00:26:45

Start giving them more of what they want.

578

: 00:26:47

It's an, it's an iterative process

and it changes all the time.

579

: 00:26:52

John: but, but I think it can be a

little bit demoralizing for people

580

: 00:26:56

who, maybe do have the, we'd have

something to say and feel like they're

581

: 00:27:00

getting ignored in favor of the

people who, who choose to pay to play.

582

: 00:27:04

but I, I just wonder

from, from your say like.

583

: 00:27:07

I, I don't think we need to

all be those huge brands.

584

: 00:27:10

Where, where do you think someone

really needs to get to, or, I mean,

585

: 00:27:13

what advice would you give someone

sort saying, I'm just getting

586

: 00:27:15

started with this and nobody's

really paying attention to me yet.

587

: 00:27:19

but, I'm gonna, I'm

gonna keep going with it.

588

: 00:27:21

Mm-hmm.

589

: 00:27:21

But, but I feel a bit, I feel a bit

put out that I'm never gonna be as

590

: 00:27:25

big as these people, or that I'm

not, I don't wanna pay to, I don't

591

: 00:27:28

wanna have to do this dishonestly.

592

: 00:27:30

Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.

593

: 00:27:31

John: what would be your words

of advice or encouragement

594

: 00:27:34

Sapna Pieroux: without this turning into

a, a LinkedIn, kind of masterclass, which,

595

: 00:27:39

John: yeah.

596

: 00:27:39

Sapna Pieroux: yeah.

597

: 00:27:39

Everybody has to start somewhere.

598

: 00:27:41

It's, it's better if you are connected

with like a hundred of your ideal

599

: 00:27:45

clients, rather than a million of like

empty followers and bots who ain't

600

: 00:27:51

ever gonna buy your stuff, right?

601

: 00:27:52

So, yeah, just make sure about the quality

of the people that you are connected with.

602

: 00:27:58

and also it's called social media.

603

: 00:28:00

So.

604

: 00:28:01

don't post and ghost and like people

just sort of like post their shit and

605

: 00:28:04

then leave the platform and expect

people to be fawn all over their post.

606

: 00:28:08

Yeah.

607

: 00:28:08

go and support other people's posts,

like follow the people that you, again,

608

: 00:28:12

some of your aspirational brands,

but people that are ahead of you

609

: 00:28:16

comment on their posts, with something

meaningful, not like, yay bro, well done.

610

: 00:28:21

Or whatever, something meaningful

that's adding to the discussion.

611

: 00:28:24

I've noticed that my comments

quite often get more impressions.

612

: 00:28:30

They can go wild, the comments go

well, the comments are actually where

613

: 00:28:33

the impressions are at the moment.

614

: 00:28:34

LinkedIn's not, giving a lot

of people a lot of reach.

615

: 00:28:38

Yeah.

616

: 00:28:38

But I, I can comment on something.

617

: 00:28:40

But yeah, being in the comments

is where new people are gonna find

618

: 00:28:43

you if you are on all these other

influential people's, kind of things,

619

: 00:28:48

commenting away and make it meaningful.

620

: 00:28:50

and also.

621

: 00:28:52

Kind of make it really clear when people

do see your name in a comment, those

622

: 00:28:56

first three words in your bio, your

LinkedIn bio, need to say, need to.

623

: 00:29:00

Don't just talk about what

you, who you are, talk about

624

: 00:29:03

what you do for, for clients.

625

: 00:29:05

So it, it is, again, it's

a, it's a consistency.

626

: 00:29:09

It's showing up, it's being social,

it's commenting, it's adding value.

627

: 00:29:13

there's also a whole DM game as well,

which I don't play enough of, but

628

: 00:29:17

I should be doing more in the dms.

629

: 00:29:19

and when you connect with someone,

like send them a little message,

630

: 00:29:23

just say, thank you for connecting.

631

: 00:29:25

Don't be cheesy.

632

: 00:29:26

Don't try and sell them your shit.

633

: 00:29:28

and then they're naturally

gonna see your stuff come up.

634

: 00:29:32

when, if, when you, when you DM people.

635

: 00:29:34

So this is like little hacks,

but I mean, the algorithm

636

: 00:29:37

is, is, is a bitch right now.

637

: 00:29:39

John: I'm just thinking, one, one of

the things we end up, I think, feeling

638

: 00:29:42

that we may be competing on, especially

for speakers, is that a lot of companies

639

: 00:29:47

or bookers potentially will look at

your following, will, they will look at

640

: 00:29:51

your, your most superficial stack¡¡ts

641

: 00:29:55

and, and, and take that as

to how successful you are.

642

: 00:29:59

And I'm just wondering, are there any

other things, like if you, if you don't

643

: 00:30:01

have that, if you don't have the sort of

metrics that obvious superstar influencer

644

: 00:30:06

online, are there any other things that

you could really highlight to that might

645

: 00:30:10

sort of make, make up for that or, or

give you that sort of boost, do you think?

646

: 00:30:16

Sapna Pieroux: well, any booker that only

goes on that is, probably, probably not

647

: 00:30:20

that it's, it's only one metric, isn't it?

648

: 00:30:22

I think person has a huge

amount to do with it.

649

: 00:30:25

having, having a professional, kind of

show reel, I guess is another thing.

650

: 00:30:29

Just getting to know people.

651

: 00:30:30

Just getting to know them as human

beings and connecting with them,

652

: 00:30:35

doing stuff that makes you stand out.

653

: 00:30:36

Whether it's showing up at the events

that they're at and actually making the

654

: 00:30:40

time to get to know them so that when

you are sending 'em a message, it's not

655

: 00:30:43

like this faceless email or whatever.

656

: 00:30:46

It's just sort of like, it's nice

if, Hey, we met at blah, blah, blah.

657

: 00:30:49

Oh yeah, I can remember that.

658

: 00:30:50

They're actually had great energy.

659

: 00:30:52

You can't get energy, the energy

of somebody from an email,

660

: 00:30:56

especially if you've not met them.

661

: 00:30:58

John: Yeah.

662

: 00:30:58

Sapna Pieroux: so.

663

: 00:30:59

Showing up at those spaces

and getting to know people.

664

: 00:31:02

I know it's expensive and I'm absolutely

exhausted because I've been doing a

665

: 00:31:04

lot of, networking in October and it's,

and it's exhausting, but it, but you

666

: 00:31:09

have to see it as business development.

667

: 00:31:11

It is about getting

visible in a different way.

668

: 00:31:13

I think you have to, certainly

from a speaking point of view, you

669

: 00:31:16

have to take things off digital,

670

: 00:31:18

John: yeah.

671

: 00:31:18

Sapna Pieroux: To make

those connections as well.

672

: 00:31:20

and then having, having assets like, okay,

I've got a book that helps things that

673

: 00:31:26

are gonna help you cut through the noise.

674

: 00:31:29

John: Yeah.

675

: 00:31:29

Sapna Pieroux: I've got a book.

676

: 00:31:31

You may have great show reel.

677

: 00:31:32

You may have won some awards,

testimonials, or another great thing.

678

: 00:31:36

have you got testimonials from

other things that you spoke at?

679

: 00:31:39

and the difference that

you've made to an event.

680

: 00:31:41

So it, it's a lot.

681

: 00:31:43

And there are, there are, the

speaking space is only getting

682

: 00:31:45

more and more competitive.

683

: 00:31:46

I haven't got a magic formula.

684

: 00:31:48

I can give you pointers and hints

and things that you maybe not

685

: 00:31:51

doing that you could do more of,

but it's different for everyone.

686

: 00:31:55

John: Yeah, you're probably not

the only person who will say that.

687

: 00:31:57

but it's super important advice because

I don't think we all do it or actually

688

: 00:32:00

making those personal connections with

people, because I think most of us would

689

: 00:32:04

rather just fire off an email or fire off

for WhatsApp message rather than actually

690

: 00:32:09

get, least get on a voice call or get

on a Zoom call or try and meet in person

691

: 00:32:14

with people because the, there is no

replacement, like the personal connection

692

: 00:32:19

that you have, people, especially when

you do meet them in person, is much

693

: 00:32:22

deeper than you ever get from any other

form of communication and connection.

694

: 00:32:27

So I think it doesn't, it's not one of

those things that goes without saying,

695

: 00:32:30

but it, it, it needs to be repeated.

696

: 00:32:33

Repeated because so many don't do it.

697

: 00:32:36

To

698

: 00:32:37

Sapna Pieroux: a certain degree, you

do have to pay to play to a certain

699

: 00:32:39

degree by paying to be in those rooms.

700

: 00:32:41

Right?

701

: 00:32:41

Right.

702

: 00:32:42

And the people that show up in

those rooms, you've probably paid

703

: 00:32:45

for a ticket to be in those rooms.

704

: 00:32:46

But that's when you get to meet people and

you can meet, tens of people, all at once.

705

: 00:32:51

And, and that's worth so many more

than the emails that, 'cause then

706

: 00:32:54

when you do drop 'em an email,

you've actually got a connection.

707

: 00:32:57

You've got like, you had a,

had a bit of a laugh with them

708

: 00:32:59

or had a drink with them, or,

709

: 00:33:01

John: I remember

710

: 00:33:02

Sapna Pieroux: me.

711

: 00:33:02

Yeah, same speak.

712

: 00:33:02

You've got something in common with them.

713

: 00:33:04

Yeah.

714

: 00:33:05

People like, people like them.

715

: 00:33:07

So put yourself in the same room.

716

: 00:33:11

John: one, one of the things, another key

chance, I know you've been doing, talking,

717

: 00:33:16

being a speaker yourself.

718

: 00:33:17

can you share with us some of the

people who you have looked up to

719

: 00:33:20

and modeled your business growth on?

720

: 00:33:22

I'm assuming you applied, you applied

this process to yourself, but who, who

721

: 00:33:26

would be the people that you perhaps,

or some of the people you've modeled

722

: 00:33:29

on for yourself to grow your business

in, in the direction they have?

723

: 00:33:34

Sapna Pieroux: People that I have

learned from, not necessarily modeled

724

: 00:33:37

myself on, but certainly you can

take hints from, people like Dan

725

: 00:33:40

Priestley, I, I, I, I joined his course.

726

: 00:33:43

that a lot of the stuff that he

does, I don't do all the things and

727

: 00:33:47

he's got massive business, but, and

certainly learned a lot from him.

728

: 00:33:50

yeah, Lucy mcc, who's my publisher,

is an absolute inspiration to me.

729

: 00:33:55

and the fact that she launched Book

Magic, the AI platform in her 70th year.

730

: 00:34:02

it became a tech bro.

731

: 00:34:03

It just kind of, when I think, oh,

God, I'm too old to be going into

732

: 00:34:06

this AI space, I think well give

yourself a good talking to Sapna,

733

: 00:34:09

because that's, that is just like,

you can do this stuff at any age.

734

: 00:34:13

and Lucy is coming up and innovating

and smashing it out the park.

735

: 00:34:17

So she is a massive, guiding light for me.

736

: 00:34:20

people like Robin, wait, who's a friend

of mine, also a client collaborator,

737

: 00:34:24

who's a business coach who has built

his business, very transparently, he's

738

: 00:34:28

incredibly transparent, incredibly honest,

has really good values, is a family man.

739

: 00:34:33

so these are not values

that I, that I learned.

740

: 00:34:36

These were things that I was doing

anyway, but aligning myself with people

741

: 00:34:40

like him, is a good thing, right?

742

: 00:34:42

People know that we're friends.

743

: 00:34:43

They know, they know I did his branding.

744

: 00:34:45

They know that, that we,

we share a lot of the same.

745

: 00:34:49

Values.

746

: 00:34:50

and so yeah, that's, that's, three.

747

: 00:34:52

maybe, maybe Leah Turner is another one.

748

: 00:34:54

I dunno if you've heard of her.

749

: 00:34:55

She's a massive,

influencer on, on LinkedIn.

750

: 00:34:59

but again, she has built a business,

around herself and her lifestyle and, her

751

: 00:35:05

needs, but in serving others and creating

a beautiful community, the Holt, which

752

: 00:35:09

I am a part of, and if anybody wants to

join, get in contact with me because I

753

: 00:35:13

can get you in through backdoor Barry.

754

: 00:35:16

so you don't have to wait

the for the waiting list.

755

: 00:35:18

She has built a beautiful community

of, wonderful human beings just

756

: 00:35:22

by showing up as a beautiful human

being herself with amazing values.

757

: 00:35:26

Yeah.

758

: 00:35:27

So, yeah, people like that.

759

: 00:35:29

John: There's, those are good

people to have in your circle

760

: 00:35:31

and, and your eyeline for sure.

761

: 00:35:33

Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.

762

: 00:35:35

John: Your book you've already

mentioned is called, let's Get Visible.

763

: 00:35:37

Mm-hmm.

764

: 00:35:38

so that people can go

and get that anywhere.

765

: 00:35:39

But for anyone who's sort of

thinking, oh yeah, you shared,

766

: 00:35:41

you shared a lot of nuggets today.

767

: 00:35:42

We had a lot of, fun

interest in fan thinking.

768

: 00:35:44

I'd like to know more.

769

: 00:35:45

I'd like to check in with Sapna.

770

: 00:35:47

What's, what's gonna be the

best way for them to connect

771

: 00:35:50

more, get further with you?

772

: 00:35:53

Sapna Pieroux: LinkedIn

is where I mainly play.

773

: 00:35:55

so LinkedIn, absolutely.

774

: 00:35:56

and then my book let's Get Visible

is available on Waterstones or Amazon

775

: 00:36:00

I'm launching Brand visions.ai,

776

: 00:36:02

which is a, an AI brand

consultant to help you create your

777

: 00:36:06

John: brand.

778

: 00:36:06

Oh, wow.

779

: 00:36:07

Sapna Pieroux: Yeah.

780

: 00:36:07

John: Fantastic.

781

: 00:36:08

So lot, lots of ways to

help help us advance.

782

: 00:36:11

Zach.

783

: 00:36:11

No, you've been, you've been

a delight to talk to today.

784

: 00:36:13

It's been a very fun conversation

and I hope you've enjoyed it too.

785

: 00:36:16

Thank you for coming and being a guest on

786

: 00:36:18

professional speaking

787

: 00:36:19

Sapna Pieroux: Thank you for having me.

788

: 00:36:21

John: Thanks for joining me for this

episode of Professional Speaking, and I

789

: 00:36:24

would say one of the things that stood

out for me in that conversation that I

790

: 00:36:29

didn't fully pick up on the first time

around, but I think is super important, is

791

: 00:36:34

the fact that we need to keep delivering

the same message multiple times.

792

: 00:36:40

Now, as a content creator myself,

I have been very aware of.

793

: 00:36:45

Sometimes you think, oh, I've

already covered that topic.

794

: 00:36:48

I'm not going to come back to it.

795

: 00:36:50

Let's move on to something else that

you have to keep providing fresh

796

: 00:36:53

topics, new information, everything

updated, but if you are creating

797

: 00:36:58

any kind of content, there's a good

chance that not everybody is going to

798

: 00:37:03

have seen what you've already done.

799

: 00:37:05

If you're a podcast creator,

not everyone is going to have

800

: 00:37:08

listened to all of your episodes.

801

: 00:37:10

If you are an article writer,

not everyone is going to have

802

: 00:37:13

read your previous articles.

803

: 00:37:15

work on the basis that someone is coming

to you brand new and isn't going to know

804

: 00:37:18

everything they need to know about you

and that your most important messages

805

: 00:37:24

need to be reinforced and heard over again

in different ways with different stories

806

: 00:37:30

and different ways to back them up.

807

: 00:37:32

This will not only help you get better

at talking about what you do, it's

808

: 00:37:37

also gonna help you find the ways to

cut through the noise and be heard.

809

: 00:37:42

So instead of always trying to create

something new, which might be more

810

: 00:37:45

interesting for you, remember that

a lot of your audience that you want

811

: 00:37:50

to reach are not yet familiar with

your messages and haven't heard some

812

: 00:37:55

of the important things that you have

to say that might sit at the core of

813

: 00:37:59

what you do and how you help people.

814

: 00:38:01

So those messages need

to be repeated often.

815

: 00:38:05

you are always more at risk of getting

bored of your message before your

816

: 00:38:09

audience do so let go of the worry

about that and that it isn't new to you,

817

: 00:38:15

but it's gonna be new to other people.

818

: 00:38:17

And even for the people it's

not new to, they could probably

819

: 00:38:21

stand to hear it again.

820

: 00:38:22

And I don't know about you,

but sometimes when I listen to

821

: 00:38:25

something over again, like this

episode, I hear something different.

822

: 00:38:30

I pick up on something that I didn't

get in a previous go around, and that

823

: 00:38:36

is what you are going to give your

audience the potential to do as well.

824

: 00:38:39

We always learn on new levels

when we are relearning things.

825

: 00:38:44

So if this conversation has given you

something useful to think about you.

826

: 00:38:48

May well want to hear more from me and

subscribe to my LinkedIn newsletter

827

: 00:38:51

called Serious About Speaking, where

I share more practical ideas and

828

: 00:38:56

more considered takes on speaking,

persuasion, credibility, and the business

829

: 00:39:00

of becoming known, booked, and paid.

830

: 00:39:03

You'll find a link in the show

notes, but for now, wherever you're

831

: 00:39:05

going, whatever you're doing,

have an amazing rest of your day.

832

: 00:39:09

See you next time.