Episode 238

Influencing the Irrational: Lessons from a Former Hostage Negotiator

Mastering Negotiation: From Hostage Tactics to Everyday Deals with Susan Ibitz

SUMMARY

In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball interviews Susan Ibitz, an expert in international hostage negotiation, interrogation, and behavioural analysis, about applying real hostage negotiation strategies to everyday situations. Susan shares practical tactics for establishing instant rapport, navigating irrational behaviour, and negotiating without scripts. She discusses the balance of warmth and assertiveness in communication and the importance of understanding both your own and others' irrational behaviours. The episode also highlights the value of strategic negotiation in various contexts, from personal relationships to high-stakes business deals, and encourages listeners to embrace their authentic selves to find their true tribe.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction to Hostage Negotiation Techniques

01:51 Meet Susan Ibitz: Hostage Negotiator and Behavioural Analyst

02:24 The Importance of Authenticity and Finding Your Tribe

03:25 Susan's Journey: From Personal Struggles to Professional Success

08:53 Communication Techniques for Building Rapport

13:21 Understanding and Managing Irrational Behaviour

32:46 Reflecting on Fashion Choices

34:01 The Challenges of Public Speaking

35:07 Introverts vs. Extroverts in Public Speaking

40:57 Finding Your Happy Place

42:46 The Importance of Negotiation

52:48 Overcoming Obstacles for Personal Growth

01:01:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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Transcript
John:

What if you could borrow from real hostage negotiation tools to win

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fair deals, calm tense conversations,

and connect fast with anyone.

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Most of us rely on scripts or talk

too much or get hijacked by other

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people's emotions or even our own.

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These things cost, trust,

sales and opportunities.

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My guest today, Susan Ibitz, breaks

down practical tactics that you can use

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today from her Me Too moment for instant

rapport, warm plus assertive framing,

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and how to negotiate without scripts

and how to navigate irrational behavior

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at work, at home, and even on stage.

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Now, I'll say this, this episode

may not be for everybody.

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If you really don't like to step outside

of the norms of society, if you're

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the kind of person who prefers to

fit into the molds that are presented

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for you and live by the archetypal

images that society has ready for you,

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then this may not be the episode that

you are gonna get the most out of.

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If you are someone who likes to

at least understand irationality

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and maybe see where there might be

opportunity within that to let your

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freak flag fly to embrace the oddities,

quirks, weirdness about ourselves?

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And maybe you will leverage that to help

you find your people, your tribe, the

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places where you are going to resonate

and make the biggest impact rather

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than trying to please everybody in this

episode might be very much for you.

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Now, I apologize in advance.

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There are some audio issues, not least

that Susan has about six cats that were

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running riot whilst we were recording,

and I've done my best to try and,

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uh, edit out that background noise.

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But there is still some of it in

the episode, so you will hear it.

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You'll also hear it referred

to by Susan as we speak.

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Also, I did my very best to make the sound

quality as good as possible, but there was

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a limit to what I could do, so hopefully

you will at least find it listenable.

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I would say this is absolutely worth

sticking with what may not be perfect

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audio to get what Susan has to share.

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Now.

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Also, Susan trained in

international hostage negotiation.

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Much like you may have

come across Chris Ross.

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We talk about him a

little in the episode two.

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She's worked across interrogation,

political consulting,

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and behavioral analysis.

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She now teaches leaders how to

influence ethically and effectively.

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If you're still with

us, enjoy the episode.

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Welcome to Present Influence, the

show for speakers, coaches and

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expert business owners who want

to deliver more impact, influence,

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and inspiration in their message.

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My name's John Ball, keynote

speaker, communication coach,

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and your guide on this journey to

mastery level communication skills.

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Susan, welcome to the show.

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I've really been looking

forward to speaking to you.

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We're gonna get into some interesting

topics today, and we're gonna

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be looking much more, I guess,

on the influence side of things.

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But, uh, first of all, welcome,

great to be speaking with you today.

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Susan Ibitz: Thank you for

having me, John, because when I

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approached to you, I know my email

was not conventional, introducing

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myself and it says it's perfect.

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Like, great.

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You need to find your people

first, then define your business.

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So you're my people.

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Love it.

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John: It's the stuff that stands

out that gets attention, right?

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I get so many pitches from people that all

look the same or they don't really tell

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me anything, or they just tell me how good

their guests are or how good they are.

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And, uh, I don't want that.

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I want someone who's actually gonna

be able to talk, having interesting

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conversation with, and talk about

some interesting things, and you

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definitely fit the bill for that.

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So, uh.

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Definitely, I think this is

gonna be a, a great episode.

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So let's get into some really interesting

stuff 'cause you have such an amazing

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background and not gonna, I'm not

gonna ask you to list it all off.

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Hopefully people have listened

to the introduction to the show,

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but, um, but I will, will ask.

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One of the things that I think was

very much striking and stood out for

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me when we spoke and, and in your

pitch as well, was that you have been

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involved in hostage negotiations.

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Uh, and I can't imagine that

there's a more, more vital area

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for influence skills than that can.

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Can you share a little bit about what that

experience has been like and maybe what

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have been the key elements of influence

and persuasion for you working there?

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Susan Ibitz: I says you cannot talk

about pain if you don't have the pain.

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I don't say it, a doctor need

to have cancer to understand

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consultations, but I feel hostage

of my own persona for a long time.

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Like we were talking, I was yellow.

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I was, I wanna fit in everybody's,

uh, box and I don't fit in any box.

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Um, I have Asperger, I dyslexic.

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I was born in Latin America.

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I have a huge accent due to my dyslexia,

and I understand I was hostage of

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what people was expecting from me.

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So when I was in my late thirties, I

went to London to study, uh, love London.

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That's where I used to live before they

bring me to United States when I was 29.

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I was doing this master and I found out

that some of the people in the master

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was spotting for people that were

special to bring to some units in London.

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So they approached me and says,

we think that you have aspergers.

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Like, oh, because I don't have

anything else in my life, my life

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to go with this actually is great.

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Uh, six.

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Every 10 of our profilers

have what you have.

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So in your IQ is we think is higher

than normal, can we test you?

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They test me and they find out it's true.

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I says, wait a minute,

there's nothing wrong with me.

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So I went back to United States.

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I politely denied that opportunity.

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I need to let go, and I start studying.

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Someone contact me and says,

I think that you will be great

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to be a hostage negotiator.

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Why?

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It's not because you belong to any

forces is because what you can bring

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to the table is the understanding

that, you can influence people

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and understand how to influence

people through the words they use.

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More important, what they don't use.

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That's how they caught the, so I

studied hostage negotiator one and two.

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I was allowed to be level three.

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That's most of the hostage

negotiator and graduate as a

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international hostage negotiator.

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Please don't be in a plane with me and

a white Japan and somebody take it.

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Just I don't want to.

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I love it.

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Let's hope

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John: not.

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But how, how did you feel when, about,

about the whole thing when, when

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that was suggested to you, will you

just straight away like, yep, that's,

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that's for me, that's what I wanna do?

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Or what, what came out for you there?

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Susan Ibitz: Okay.

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As a five years old to have

free pass to Disneyworld.

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What everybody wanna be one of them,

like when you says that, like when I

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don't wanna talk about me and says, oh,

I'm a former civilian hostage negotiator

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trained by, uh, military interrogation

and 18 years political consultant.

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They don't care.

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What is my name?

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Just go for it.

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Everybody want, I was telling you people

watch serial killer series to relax.

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Like it's fascinating not for dating.

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Uh, so I went through the

process, but more important, I

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understood how we are judgemental.

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So we says, oh, this person is trying

to commit suicide because you have

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two kinds of hostage negotiator.

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The hostage taken, that is an

active shooter that become a hostage

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situation where you negotiate 99.9%

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on the phone, sometime the team, not even

from the same state or the same country.

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And after that you have barricades.

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Barricades is when somebody

tried to commit suicide.

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And your job is try,

I'm sorry for the noise.

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I have six, six cats.

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Then I cannot keep holding.

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So it's not your, it's not John's

fault, it's my cat's fault.

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Um, and you need to try to that

person not to commit suicide.

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You cannot lie.

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You cannot say yes, no, and

then you cannot lie, right?

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Because that person is gonna be in

two weeks on the same position and you

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are gonna be hold for that position.

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So without lying, how

you convince someone?

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So those so desperate, two requ, you

have two positions and cost a negotiator.

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I put a bullet between your eyes or

you come up out and handcuff you.

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So understanding how that

work, give me a parameter.

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I'm like, I don't need to be judgmental.

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I need to forget my biases.

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I need to forget what I think

about it, and I need to ask more

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questions and I need to understand.

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Doesn't mean that I get where you ended

up there, but I need to understand

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why your story get you there.

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We have three stories, the

person's story, my story, how

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I am there, and the story we.

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Put together to make sure you

leaving from that situation.

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So it's come from a storytelling that

people who does public speaking, they

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need to understand you need to be a story.

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Doesn't mean that your story is

important, but the story where

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you're gonna get people there.

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And that's will host negotiation.

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Give me and after that, going to Harvard

to start study negotiation with lawyers.

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I not the most proud time of my

times because I have fun having

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fun with them because I was one

step ahead with them, the lawyers.

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So, but yeah, that's how much

and deep get to that topic.

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John: Cool.

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And I, I expect most of us will never

be in a position where we are required

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to do that kind of negotiation.

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But I So you say story was a

critical part of understanding

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this work and doing this work.

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Are there any of the sort communication

techniques that you are able to

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share that might be helpful for

other areas of life as well?

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Susan Ibitz: When you talk about

communication technique, because I

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gave a workshop two weeks ago about.

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Public speaking public and people public.

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And I did it on purpose to understand,

okay, what is public speaking?

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You go to the market and you wanna know

what is the fresh fish on the market.

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You need to establish a communication with

others because what is your role to have

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a fresh fish so your guests are not sick?

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So in order to get that, you

need to establish rapport.

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John: Yeah,

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Susan Ibitz: to establish rapport.

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You cannot be cold.

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But you need to warm and

assertive, warm and assertive and

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says, Hey John, how you doing?

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So you play the piano.

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I'm horrible playing piano, but I can

tell you I love to go to the concert.

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I know about what Mozart

rashman enough so.

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I care about your surroundings, I care

about something that you care about

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to be showing, and I acknowledge my

ignorance on the topic, giving you the

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expertise and give you the upper hand.

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But another way it says that I know enough

to appreciate what you're gonna tell me.

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I have the assertiveness to know that

what you are gonna share with me is

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gonna be appreciated because I have the

background to understand what you said.

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I would define communication in that way.

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Make sense?

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John: Yeah, absolutely.

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So there's a degree, it sounds, at

least you can correct me if I'm wrong,

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that there is, um, an element of,

with the rapport you are creating that

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likability factor and common, common

points of interest that say that we,

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we are similar at least in some way.

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Susan Ibitz: The Me Too is not a team

me too movement, it's the me Too moment.

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Then I start with this 20 years

ago and got kind of de de and

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people says, change the name.

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No.

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I start first.

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I have a Godfather rule.

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Everybody have something in common?

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You're from London.

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I, my last time was London.

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I love London.

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I was planning to retire this in England.

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England.

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I love England.

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I love the food, I love the accent.

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I love the, nobody care about your accent.

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I love the, at 5:00 PM

we're going for a pint.

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I love that the elevator is,

uh, live, that you call it flat.

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I love everything about all

London, even the weather.

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Because I'm ait, so it's

an excuse not to go out.

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So that is the me too.

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So in everybody have something in common.

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I have talked to interrogators that

says, well, we are in the same room.

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That is the thing that you have in

common in a relationship, why you

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are relationships and as adult,

well, we look for a partner.

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You look for the Me too.

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We like dogs, we love cats.

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We hate the government.

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You never know.

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What are the things

that bring you together.

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So sometimes that I says, the

enemy of my enemy is my friend.

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That is my me to, uh, moment.

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Why?

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Because we have something in common.

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Never be fake.

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We need why lies to

lubricate relationships.

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But a good one lie, need to be 75% True.

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I can says, how you doing?

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Like, oh, doing great.

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I have a shitty day.

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I didn't sleep.

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I have a fight with my relationship.

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Yeah, I'm having a good day now

because I'm talking with you.

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You don't need to know the

other 25% that it's not working.

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So when people meet you on a networking

or meet you in a place where they expect

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from you to be social love again and

bely, don't make it too complicated.

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Be careful what you're sharing

and not sharing over sharing.

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You have people that can be a liability

and you have people who can be an asset.

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If every time then I pick up

the phone and says, oh God is

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Margaret, what is the drama today?

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I don't have nonwhite.

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Sorry, Margaret.

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Go to the voicemail.

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Well, I'm getting ready to go to a

place and suddenly I asking myself,

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what the heck I'm doing here?

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Why I'm looking for an excuse to go.

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You have a communication with

yourself that is a problem.

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You're not being honest with yourself.

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So how you gonna show up?

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How you're gonna be talking with

Margaret, how you're gonna be

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interacting with our Margaret?

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Margaret gonna think that you're and

not a nice person when in reality the

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problem is you don't communicate with

yourself, yourself to says, Margaret,

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you're not my people, and it's okay.

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John: So there's a, a somewhat

strategic element in, in general

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communication as well that at least

is about bringing more, it, it sounds

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at least bringing more conscious

awareness into what you think, what you

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say, how you say, how, how you show.

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There's a lot of elements to,

to keep in mind whilst you are

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communicating, especially in

those professional situations.

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Susan Ibitz: I think you need

to be strategic all the time.

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When I talk on, people say

I'm extremely transactional.

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I said, it doesn't sound good.

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Why?

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You go to the doctor.

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You pay to the doctor

to have a diagnostic.

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I'm gonna the market, I'm

gonna pay for the bananas.

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So I approach to you because

I wanted to put more exposure.

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My team is put again in my head,

says, Susan, do it, or we gonna do it.

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And okay, I choose how to do it.

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I wanna go places where I wanna be, where

I take the time to listen to the podcast.

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I know we have things in common.

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That is gonna be transactional for both.

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I'm gonna give you a show.

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You're gonna gimme exposure.

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Exposure, and we're gonna have a

conversation where I, we can leave each

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other better than when we find it and we

can give your audience something they can

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take that is transactional and it's okay.

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Yeah.

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So it's nothing wrong to name the

things that, how they are when people

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says what, what is the difference

between influence and manipulation?

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Like, whatever you wanna name it.

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If you're gonna make your kids eat

broccoli because you hide it on this

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spaghetti, or you're gonna put healthy

french fries on the McDonald packet,

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well tell me what is different there.

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Not too much.

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Just how you approach it

is the end goal on that.

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So if transactional wise, I approach

this new saying, okay, this is what

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we both can take about away from that

transactional manipulation influence.

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It's not too different people, I

think you get too hot on the words.

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And not what is the idea of the situation?

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You put it on.

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John: Yeah, I, I think from my

experience and say from my, my own

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point of view really as well, I look

at it and this way I like, it's only

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gonna be those transactional elements.

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It should be, life is,

life is all about that.

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We have to interact and

transact with each other.

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And doing things like a

podcast is, it's inevitable.

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There's gonna be a give

and take there as well.

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But beyond that is also.

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A level of connection that that

comes through there as well.

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Even if the connection is just for

the, um, just for the interview time

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or whether it goes on beyond that, you

feel like there's something more than

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just the, hopefully at least something,

just more than the interaction,

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more than the transactional as well.

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Do, do you get what I'm saying?

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Susan Ibitz: Yeah.

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See, that's what I'm saying is

you can talk tomato, tomato.

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Is red and it's gonna end up in my pizza.

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So it's, it's the end goal.

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You have two ways you care about the

people, care about the destination,

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and people who care about the journey.

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I'm a strategic, um,

completely left brain.

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I go to, like, I don't waste my time.

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I get organized.

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I get things that more people says,

how the heck you manage so many things.

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Because when I need to get

done, I don't think of the thing

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that is gonna happen later.

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So you need to have an end.

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So if you're a journey person, you're

gonna be wasting my time because I

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don't care how many sandwich I have.

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I need to know that I need to

be in two hours in some place.

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Where are we gonna stop?

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Like I don't care.

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I'm sure we're gonna find food.

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We are not, I'm not gonna

be carrying 17 sandwiches.

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So it's not about the journey, it's what

I need to conquer that the reason I'm

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not fixer, that the reason I'm good and

I job that the reason people call me.

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I'm not the traditional person

that you're can approach.

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I have clients who says, I never

would've hired you if I see on the media.

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I only hire because I know who you help.

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Another people says, you are

my style person and it's okay.

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I don't take it personal.

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You have a style and again, narrow

your needs, narrow your audience.

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Pick your clients before you

pick your, uh, your business.

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Pick your audience

before you're gonna talk.

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Pick up how you're gonna be perceived.

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Pick up who you're gonna be

before you put it out there.

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I told you I was trying to be

vanilla in the beginning and I was

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flunking until it says, okay Susan,

you're gonna go full on who you are.

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Take it a lever.

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And I pissed off 80% of the

people to have my niche.

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That is the 20% of weirdos.

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As we, and I always say, be

as weird as I am, please.

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That's that is my people.

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So I make it clear you need to be weird.

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And by the way, we is amazing because

the first circus was an animals, those

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people, so people lost crazy people.

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John: Yeah, no, I think

that's really true.

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I think we all want to, I've heard

other people put it on the show, like,

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um, saying like, let let your freak

flag fly and all those kind of things.

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We, we should, you know, I, I do

agree with and whatever the weird

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aspects are about you, that they're

part of you and we should own them

368

:

and not try to just fit in with what

pe we think people want us to be.

369

:

'cause that's where you truly

find your tribe and your following

370

:

and your charisma as well.

371

:

Because I think without, without

those authentic elements, you

372

:

don't really have charisma.

373

:

You just kind of have a, a, a

sort of beige personality that

374

:

is not one thing or another.

375

:

Uh, so, so I think that these elements

are absolutely essential that we should,

376

:

um, to some degree flaunt the stuff

that is maybe a little strange about

377

:

us or different, that it, it does help

us to really find a tribe rather than

378

:

just people thinking, oh, that's nice.

379

:

They're nice.

380

:

Yeah.

381

:

Susan Ibitz: Do you agree that

you need to have the acolytes.

382

:

So if you says you're an expert in

this show that you are an expert and

383

:

that you have the luxury to be weird.

384

:

I want people who wanna pitch

in Shark Tanks or any of the

385

:

shows says, how are doing?

386

:

Like, you look lovely when your steep

job, but so far you are present.

387

:

It doesn't tell me you

have your things together.

388

:

You can assess.

389

:

I don't know.

390

:

I'm gonna ask my accountant.

391

:

You fighting for your life, so you need

to be warm, you need to be assertive.

392

:

You can play crazy when you have

ent, but if you're playing crazy

393

:

for being crazy, you are Ted Bundy.

394

:

By the way.

395

:

It was a genius.

396

:

All these lunatics were genius.

397

:

Yeah.

398

:

So you need to have something,

you need to be good in something

399

:

to be, have the luxury to be

crazy or luxury to be yourself.

400

:

You need to have a base.

401

:

You need to have acolytes, you need

to have a certain pegram, what you do.

402

:

So I'm good in accounting.

403

:

No, I cannot make a check.

404

:

My left depend on it.

405

:

I'm, the bank already knows me, says

Susan is 600 year old or the 900 year

406

:

old, and I'm like, they already know me.

407

:

They call me and I correct the

check and they released the check.

408

:

I know that.

409

:

So like Bronson and many

people is dyslexic, says.

410

:

I decide to be the best in my business and

hire somebody writing the emails for me.

411

:

But I'm good in what I do and nobody can

touch my rear end and what I do because

412

:

I 53 and I embark in another master in

October and actually was approved too,

413

:

neuromarketing and Neuroscience and

London in person, then I cannot travel

414

:

and another one in Barcelona online.

415

:

I gonna do the Barcelona online.

416

:

Are you gonna stop?

417

:

No.

418

:

Why?

419

:

Because you can say a lot of things

about me, but you never gonna say then

420

:

I don't have my things together that

gimme the luxury to be who I wanna be.

421

:

Now, in order to be that, you

need to be something good that

422

:

people can respect your work.

423

:

When people say, oh, man, neuro sign

and study with this and this, like,

424

:

uh, how, what make you neuroscience?

425

:

Well, I read this book and listen

to like, okay, I'm sorry, I,

426

:

I'm sorry for not being sorry.

427

:

But you are not.

428

:

I studied with Paul Ekman,

where I took an along classes.

429

:

He was given the class.

430

:

No, somebody else.

431

:

Well, let me tell you.

432

:

I moved my body to Manchester

for a year study with him, Robert

433

:

Cialdini, and I moved to Arizona

for two weeks to study with him.

434

:

So let's reframe who you're talking to.

435

:

I make the effort to do it.

436

:

I make sure that I'm the only

one in that field because I

437

:

wanna be the person in my field.

438

:

The only place in my

life I'm cocky is my job.

439

:

Why?

440

:

Because I know what I bring to the

table that allow me to be crazy,

441

:

and my clients allow me to be crazy

because they know I'm deliver.

442

:

No,

443

:

John: this is your ethos,

your credibility, right?

444

:

So you ab absolutely have to have that.

445

:

Um, we talked previously a little

bit about, um, there's another pretty

446

:

well known hostage negotiator with a

pretty well known book, Chris Voss.

447

:

Uh, and we talked about him and I know

there were some points of difference.

448

:

Uh, I know you know Chris as well.

449

:

There are some points of difference

between what he teaches and maybe what

450

:

you think about, um, some of the things

about Split never split the difference,

451

:

and, uh, things that he teaches.

452

:

Can, can we get, get a little bit

about understanding about what

453

:

some, maybe some of the points of

difference that you have there?

454

:

Susan Ibitz: He had work on the FBI

as an international host negotiator.

455

:

Nobody gonna take that from Chris.

456

:

Actually, his first host

negotiation was in a bank.

457

:

I think it was the only few, few

hostage negotiator you're gonna find

458

:

out that have a real like I'm gonna

see your face hostage negotiation.

459

:

He is brilliant in what he does,

but I don't think that he translate

460

:

to the civilians the understanding.

461

:

I think his book is perfect.

462

:

I think he brought his book by

the ghost writer that never eat

463

:

alone or something like that.

464

:

Genius writer.

465

:

It's great marketing, but I don't think

it's a realistic understanding how life,

466

:

work and a host, it's easy, a hostage

negotiation than a real life negotiation

467

:

and actually all the hostage negotiator.

468

:

I know I asked the same question.

469

:

You wanna deal with your wife,

your kid, a hosted taker.

470

:

I prefer an Al-Qaeda

terrorist than my kids.

471

:

Because he have two options.

472

:

My kids, they can't play

me the way they I want.

473

:

I talk to FBI Moat, CIA, I know that

it's not gonna work with them, but

474

:

I have a chance to meet with them in

conference when I gonna either speak

475

:

was a, was a guest and it's different.

476

:

So when he says never split,

the difference is the concept

477

:

of negotiation is split the

different, I'll give you something.

478

:

It's completely transactional.

479

:

So when you says never split the

different, we lead in thinking that.

480

:

We gonna have the talking guy

like it's my way or the highway.

481

:

Honey, let me tell you, short shoulder

truck, it doesn't tell me you're lying.

482

:

Uh, taking everything and not give

you not anything in exchange is

483

:

not gonna be a good negotiation.

484

:

When you're selling a house as a

realtor, you need to give the person

485

:

what asking if it's not called fraud,

it's called you are not realistic.

486

:

You ruin your reputation.

487

:

So my concerns with that is

not talking about his persona,

488

:

then I respect his persona.

489

:

I'm talking about the persona marketing

that is building the theory of the book.

490

:

And for some people it's like the bible.

491

:

He's a genius marketer.

492

:

He have that great.

493

:

But in the theory

practice, I do not agree.

494

:

You need to negotiate transactional.

495

:

I give you a good show.

496

:

You give me the, the, the, you

give me the space to do it.

497

:

The audience, I hope they have

takeaways they can take with them.

498

:

It's okay.

499

:

We meet on the middle.

500

:

We always split the difference.

501

:

And because I've been talking

openly, an editorial comes and

502

:

says, can we split the cheese?

503

:

Like, nope, I will not gonna

get in somebody else business.

504

:

As Chris was business.

505

:

I respect him, uh, do his job.

506

:

I will not gonna fight with it.

507

:

I don't need, I don't

have the need to do it.

508

:

I, when I have the, the chance to do

it and says, guys, if you have a cells.

509

:

You have a client that coming from a car

and you wanna sell sport and he need a

510

:

minivan, you need to meet on the middle.

511

:

You need to give them maybe

an SUV, not a minivan.

512

:

You sell what you need, the person have,

but you are not gonna sell the the,

513

:

the sport car when he have four kids.

514

:

Now you have a recently

divorce dude than the fifties.

515

:

Give me the most expensive car.

516

:

I'm gonna sell that car.

517

:

Now we're talking, you

have your ego fed up.

518

:

I sell my car.

519

:

That is a different scenario.

520

:

But it still meet you in the middle.

521

:

Always, always a negotiation is not,

I hate when people come and says,

522

:

oh, we spend $50,000 on, um, on

these, uh, uh, uh, sketches or, or,

523

:

and these, um, screenplays to sell.

524

:

We need to do this and we, we need

to go with this, with this brief.

525

:

That's what we need to sell.

526

:

Like, no, you don't need a script.

527

:

You need a manual.

528

:

You need to have a company manual

where you give people options to

529

:

negotiate if you're forced and

says, Hey John, how you doing?

530

:

Well, you know, my cat died.

531

:

Oh, that is fixable.

532

:

Lemme tell you, I have

the best cell phone.

533

:

When you can keep the picture,

like, no, that person need empathy.

534

:

Go with him.

535

:

I have, I have gone in company sales

to any calls, only for the fact that

536

:

I'm gonna hear what they say and

says, okay dude, if you don't drop

537

:

the script, I'm gonna drop the call.

538

:

So you cannot go with the script.

539

:

You need to move with the flow.

540

:

Not always the client is, is

true, is right, but what is right

541

:

is what you need to understand.

542

:

People want to be seen

here and understood.

543

:

If I take everything from the table,

you live with a new cell phone, but you

544

:

live thinking that I never heard you.

545

:

I never see you, and I

never understood you.

546

:

Make sense?

547

:

John: Yeah.

548

:

Yeah, absolutely.

549

:

And, and as those connection elements,

again, you, um, one of your special or

550

:

specialized areas, I should say, really

is irrational people, irrational humans.

551

:

And it, I wonder what, what drew

you into that particular area?

552

:

Really, you wanna go there and what, what

value does that kind of study have for

553

:

the rest of us, for life in general that

we might be, might, might be applicable?

554

:

Susan Ibitz: I'm gonna, okay.

555

:

I need to rearrange my

tail, my chair for that.

556

:

It's gonna be fine.

557

:

I was married for 10 years with a

borderline narcissist person and I

558

:

realized like, what the heck I, why

I ended up married with that person

559

:

because he was the most fucked up fix.

560

:

I never need to do my life

when I, when he was diagnosed,

561

:

know about TikTok 15 years ago.

562

:

By a former FBI profiler psychologist,

no fun for 11 months, the first thing,

563

:

and I asked for, the therapist says,

why I'm here, what is wrong with me?

564

:

And second of all, how long I

have, I'm gonna start having fun.

565

:

To the point I want, saying the

time the the says, okay, you're

566

:

having too much fun with this dude.

567

:

You need to file for divorce, why

you wanna intervene with the court?

568

:

So I understand that no matter how

rational I am at work, I'm human.

569

:

I have my biases.

570

:

And then I ended up six cats,

more than 800 pair of shoes.

571

:

Why?

572

:

And they understand and discover

behavioral economics that the

573

:

traditional way we think about people

is irrational and it's not true.

574

:

And I understand how advertisement work.

575

:

I did my, my last thesis is how, if

I, if I, supposedly this is a glass

576

:

of wine and I have French on the

background, and this wine is French.

577

:

I probably gonna buy more French

wine up to 330 times more.

578

:

Now this is French wine

and I have German music.

579

:

I'm gonna have a decent in

my brand to make it simple.

580

:

You have Homer Simpson,

95% of your decisions.

581

:

You have Albert Einstein.

582

:

5% of your decision What?

583

:

You put Albert Einstein

to change the light bulb?

584

:

No.

585

:

You need Homer Simpson.

586

:

I wake up.

587

:

Feed my card, do my

breakfast, check my emails.

588

:

I don't need to overthink that.

589

:

It's automatically I need that.

590

:

The problem is when you're gonna

buy a house and you take home, or

591

:

to give you advice, so we do as

humans, 35,000 decisions a day.

592

:

95% of them are irrational from, I gonna

use red lipstick or brown lipstick.

593

:

What are I gonna be wearing?

594

:

It's so those are decisions.

595

:

What you gonna have for once.

596

:

Are what you gonna, t-shirt

you're gonna be wearing?

597

:

What is the background?

598

:

So you start taking, there

are 35,000 decisions.

599

:

I'm gonna wake up, I gonna snooze

the alarm more times than one.

600

:

Or I gonna put the, so

those are decisions.

601

:

So I'm fascinated.

602

:

The prisons, they take

us to avoid the warning.

603

:

Avoid your guts.

604

:

This is red flag.

605

:

When we dating.

606

:

It's a red flag.

607

:

I should be buying this car.

608

:

Why is spending more money

than I should in choose?

609

:

Why is spending more money,

why I hired that person?

610

:

Why I'm dating that person?

611

:

Those are decisions that when you

stop fighting with the fact that

612

:

you need to understand and you

understand, you're irrational, you

613

:

have control, knowledge is power.

614

:

So when I understand how irrational it

can be and this my client and the person

615

:

in front of me is as irrational as I am.

616

:

So the bad news, you are the good news.

617

:

Everybody else are is.

618

:

So if you find out that and you

take control, knowing that, imagine

619

:

that you can do with your life.

620

:

That's the reason people is president,

people are CEOs and you are not.

621

:

John: See seems fair enough.

622

:

So, so to, to some degree then the,

the difference between the sort of

623

:

rational and irrational there is,

um, what's of consequence and, and

624

:

what really is more inconsequential.

625

:

Is that right?

626

:

Susan Ibitz: Okay.

627

:

If you are gonna talk about consequences,

because sometimes people confuse that

628

:

because you're rational, you don't.

629

:

95% irrational and a stair that is

not safe completely in a FlipFlop.

630

:

Now the consequence of that is that

when you feel that you're feel falling,

631

:

you grab something as secure, so

you have a stair that is bubbly and

632

:

instead to use flip flop, you choose

the consequences of the outcome.

633

:

You're on the right shoes and

wearing a gear that protect you.

634

:

To me, it will be nuts to clean windows,

but those guys have all their arm nest.

635

:

To be safe, to me is the

most irrational fear height.

636

:

So no matter how much you

pay me in my life, depend on

637

:

it, I'll not gonna be there.

638

:

But they understand the consequences

and not to take the measurement and

639

:

maybe it's irrational and irresponsible

to jump undo that window because

640

:

they can leave a widow with kids.

641

:

But the rational part is how much

you measure the risk of those

642

:

consequences, but you don't know

the measurement of the risk.

643

:

You don't know how to prevent the risk.

644

:

If I'm not aware that 95% of my decisions

are being irrational, again, we coming

645

:

back, knowledge is, if I don't know, then

I basically, I'm preparing a tech talk

646

:

and says, uh, I why you're so stupid.

647

:

Including me and people love it and

says, what do you wanna do with that?

648

:

No idea.

649

:

I have the title so don't take it.

650

:

It's already printed.

651

:

So he says, because I know.

652

:

So I start with all the

rational things that we do.

653

:

The people I married, they

call the the hair choices.

654

:

Okay, John, you're younger than me.

655

:

Pick a picture.

656

:

When you was in the se, in the

late tens and the twenties and

657

:

thirties, her do clothes inside.

658

:

And you says, what the heck?

659

:

I was thinking I did a perm

during the pandemic because

660

:

I couldn't find any, a perm.

661

:

What about in the seventies?

662

:

And I look at those pictures

like, what the heck?

663

:

I was thinking four years ago.

664

:

I work in fashion for many years

as a behavioral unit analysis.

665

:

What the heck I was thinking I

was, I, I did what I can with

666

:

what I had on that moment.

667

:

Living in the middle of nowhere, in a town

where nobody understand what is a stylist.

668

:

They cut the cow hair and your

hair, that's where I live.

669

:

So apparent was the most

decent way to fix the problem.

670

:

I did what I can with what I have.

671

:

So that has been irrational.

672

:

Yeah, I knew my, my consequences, pros

and cons was even shaving my head again,

673

:

probably gonna make a hole in weeks

wearing available at that point, or have

674

:

a per by the person who cut hair on a cow.

675

:

Not, doesn't mean there was

the right decision to make.

676

:

That was the only one I have.

677

:

John: Yeah, right.

678

:

How pretty were the cows are now?

679

:

I'd wanna know.

680

:

I'd wanna know.

681

:

So, um, I, I guess a lot of people would

think that getting up onto a stage is

682

:

pretty irrational to get up and speak

in front bunch of people that there's

683

:

millions of people who wouldn't entertain

the idea, who are incredibly afraid of it.

684

:

But sometimes it is doing these

irrational things that get

685

:

us to good results as well.

686

:

Yeah.

687

:

Or would you say that's more rational?

688

:

Susan Ibitz: Because it's n

when people says, what happened?

689

:

Alex NI put this new last week.

690

:

'cause people, I said, N what

you want me to do with that?

691

:

Check?

692

:

Check the design.

693

:

So the first time that I need to do a

webinar that is a certain way to speaking,

694

:

I throw up before, during, and after.

695

:

I have enough slice in a pocket.

696

:

So I.

697

:

Wait a minute, you prepare

president like again.

698

:

Nobody should the vice president.

699

:

It's different.

700

:

And I says to the people who go to Shark

Tech talk QVC and public speaking and

701

:

talking in front of the media or talking

to the team, it says, the day you lose

702

:

the butterflies on the stomach is the

day that I will say kill yourself.

703

:

Because not f literally

because you lost that.

704

:

And another thing people confused

when we talk is, and he says

705

:

like, oh my God, it's aha moment.

706

:

Introverts are painful to talk in

conference, but introverts shine

707

:

in an audience for 3000 people.

708

:

They're trained.

709

:

He says, why?

710

:

Because introverts are introspective

and extroverts love feedback.

711

:

So people is claiming and clapping.

712

:

You love it.

713

:

The first, the best.

714

:

Comedians like small crowds, and

they're extremely introverts and

715

:

shy because you have a crowd, crowd

work, what is called crowd work.

716

:

The people threw things to

you that really good on front.

717

:

So look what, um, uh, prompt

comedy is when people says, okay,

718

:

threw me a topic, um, trees.

719

:

Okay, let's me, let me tell you.

720

:

You look at the leaf or you look the

tree and you start building a story.

721

:

Oh my God, that was a lot.

722

:

I start building a story

based on the tree, the leaf.

723

:

So you're introspecting helping

you to get to the point.

724

:

Introverts suffer and hate public

speaking because the crowds is mixed.

725

:

You don't have introspecting, you

don't know who's on the crowd, and

726

:

you start getting your head going,

and introvert doesn't like it.

727

:

Introverts like training, coaching,

and one-on-one relationship.

728

:

Extroverts love the crowd, love

talking, and because whatever

729

:

you bring them to them, they shy.

730

:

So if you're an introvert,

do not think that's painful.

731

:

Physically painful for you

to talk in front of people.

732

:

Is that your.

733

:

The way you recharge energy, the why

that you are getting more social.

734

:

The way you have your energy is

completely different, but you need to

735

:

understand how painful it is so you

can do public speaking when you're

736

:

coaching and a small crowd where the

people is selected to your turf, no,

737

:

your turf is selected to attract people.

738

:

Because sometimes my people

says, oh, we're gonna put this

739

:

title like, but it's not true.

740

:

But you're gonna bring audience.

741

:

No, no, no, no.

742

:

I will not gonna adapt my, I will

not gonna adapt myself to rhetoric.

743

:

You need to adapt the rhetoric to

myself, and you get to a point in

744

:

your career where you can do that.

745

:

In the beginning, you can't,

but as soon as you can.

746

:

And if you tailor your crowd in the

beginning, it's gonna be extremely

747

:

helpful because that's gonna help

it to get to the point you want

748

:

and get the GR dry crowd since the.

749

:

John: Interestingly, though I'd say most

of the professional speakers or public

750

:

speakers I know are more naturally

introverted than, than extroverted.

751

:

So, so even though it's harder and

I, I would generally class myself as

752

:

being naturally introverted, although,

you know, I, I certainly push.

753

:

Push through that to a great degree.

754

:

Um, but it's interesting to me at least

that so many introverts do go to it.

755

:

But I do feel like a part of the reason

for that, certainly for myself and for

756

:

many of the people I've worked with, has

been to do with, um, the, the personal

757

:

growth that happens when you challenge

yourself in these ways that maybe do seem

758

:

irrational and put you into situations

that are incredibly uncomfortable.

759

:

Susan Ibitz: You know what?

760

:

Jerry Sinfield, Oprah Winfrey, lady Gaga,

all these great performance are introverts

761

:

and people says it's incoherent.

762

:

Like no.

763

:

When you talk about what you know,

nobody can touch your rear end.

764

:

Let's put it that way.

765

:

And if you see the

routines, I have seen this.

766

:

I have a lot of friends

that are stage manager.

767

:

I don't know how I ended

up with, I love it.

768

:

Even I have clients, they have.

769

:

Andrea Belli, they do in the colo in Rome.

770

:

So I have trouble to see those concerts

and that people says two hours before

771

:

the show, no matter if the, uh, if the

theater is burning, you don't bother them.

772

:

And after the show they don't wanna

talk to anyone and they're so when

773

:

what happened with Ellen Degeneres

or Oprah and says, I don't know how

774

:

much that person, and I don't wanna

sit on the politics of that, I don't

775

:

know how much that person is cranky.

776

:

It's highly introvert that never

was introduced properly to the team.

777

:

And explain what an introversion

happened because if you gonna talk

778

:

to me before I go to a crowd or after

a crowd, I'm gonna chop your head.

779

:

So if you see me in that context

outside of the stage, you're gonna

780

:

think of an I'm a bad person.

781

:

Oh, I'm cranky and I don't like people.

782

:

I kind of don't like people.

783

:

But anyway, another, another topic

or another podcast is that my

784

:

introversion asked me to, Susan, you

need to get your energy ready for

785

:

when you are in front of the people.

786

:

You give everything you have,

so you need to work it up.

787

:

Oh my God, again, a lot.

788

:

I couldn't close the

dogs, the, the, the cat.

789

:

So people is my fault.

790

:

I have six cats and I shouldn't close,

and I left the door open and I cannot cut.

791

:

John: I'll do my very best to minimize

the interruptions from the cats.

792

:

Don't worry.

793

:

Susan Ibitz: But they're cute.

794

:

I can

795

:

John: That's that's the different podcast.

796

:

Yeah.

797

:

But,

798

:

Susan Ibitz: but people is introvert.

799

:

You're introvert, but you

help other people to talk.

800

:

Do you need to be the best speaker?

801

:

No, I know I need to know your pain.

802

:

I says, what make me good at what I do is

I get, you have one of them that's not,

803

:

so what I need to understand is your pain.

804

:

I need to understand how

difficult it is so I can work

805

:

with you and give you things.

806

:

For example, let's talk about

pets in the morning when I

807

:

need to do a lot of exposure.

808

:

I take 15 to 20 minutes to play with them

that get my dopamine, get my oxytocin.

809

:

No matter how dark is

the day when I see pets.

810

:

Because I'm a rescuer and because of my

Asperger, I have that relationship with

811

:

pets, the animals, the people, because

they give you love unconditionally.

812

:

I love the working all over.

813

:

So if you watch in your,

in your cell phone.

814

:

Five minutes of videos for pets, your

dopamine and oxytocin is gonna be high.

815

:

So look for your happy place

when you need to go there.

816

:

And it's about finding your happy

place and happy places can come

817

:

back from many, many, many places.

818

:

Sometime you put a picture of those

shoes that you're gonna buy and you

819

:

cannot afford and says, okay, if I

put up with this, I can buy the shoes.

820

:

Perfect.

821

:

Let's do that.

822

:

John: Yeah, it certainly

explains why so many people

823

:

are watching cat videos online.

824

:

And, uh, number one research.

825

:

Susan Ibitz: Do you know what is

the number one of body language?

826

:

Google body language of cats,

second body language of dogs,

827

:

and then body language of kids.

828

:

By 2030, we're gonna have

more pets per capita.

829

:

Thank you guys.

830

:

Uh, more pets per capita than kids.

831

:

We do more adult Pampers than kid Pampers.

832

:

I'm a data person, so yeah,

I'm just an average American.

833

:

John: I cer certainly looking

at dog videos is my thing.

834

:

I I, I do, I do.

835

:

I love that.

836

:

And I do get those feelings from watching

those kinds of, especially the sort of

837

:

rescue videos and stuff, um, that, uh, I

haven't yet managed to convince my husband

838

:

to buy to that we should get a dog.

839

:

I'm, we're still working on that one.

840

:

Susan Ibitz: That's the reason I'm single,

so I don't need to ask for permission.

841

:

I shoulda

842

:

John: have got the dog when I was

single that would've sold him.

843

:

But

844

:

Susan Ibitz: actually, you know what

most people and take has to do with

845

:

behavior and try to please everyone.

846

:

And I think it's important when

you need to define your avatar.

847

:

I wanna start working with someone

says, okay, who is your avatar?

848

:

Your what?

849

:

Who, when, why?

850

:

Where?

851

:

When I decide to move

from the big city to.

852

:

Having a weekend house and

during the pandemic making my,

853

:

my home and I, by mistake and

failure, I ended up with six cats.

854

:

People says you should have a partner.

855

:

And doing what?

856

:

Like why?

857

:

If I do those things, if I move to

the forest and commute between the

858

:

cities, if I have six cats, the person

I'm gonna find is narrow to the niche.

859

:

We are gonna think alike.

860

:

We are gonna be thinking

about the same needs.

861

:

I narrow my field, I make it

simple to relate with someone.

862

:

And I told him, I met a guy that is

allergic and says, okay, I'm gonna go

863

:

to all allergies and he have three dogs.

864

:

I have six cats.

865

:

It's gonna be a So, but guess what?

866

:

He understand because

he doesn't have pets.

867

:

He have rescue, rescue stories.

868

:

So I gonna match with somebody who.

869

:

Too late.

870

:

You're married, you have the

ring, so you need to negotiate.

871

:

I can, we can talk about

negotiation later, but cool.

872

:

People wait for what if, when I,

and guess what people get, how many

873

:

story we hear or retire and die two

weeks later, uh, is gonna travel when

874

:

retire and have a hip replacement.

875

:

Cannot be sitting on the

plane for three hours.

876

:

I don't wait anymore.

877

:

John: I, I can't, I can't follow my,

my brother's strategy with getting a

878

:

dog was just to go out and get one.

879

:

And his wife, his wife was

not, was not happy about it.

880

:

Okay?

881

:

First, but tolerated it.

882

:

Susan Ibitz: Look okay.

883

:

Go on a park and see what dog he liked.

884

:

He want a puppy.

885

:

He want a story.

886

:

He wanna be the hero of the story.

887

:

Rescue and a puppy.

888

:

Bring a female friend.

889

:

That he's gonna be nurturing

to playing his ego and says,

890

:

okay, I wanna rescue a puppy.

891

:

Bring it and you can cut this part.

892

:

Or make it not to hear this podcast,

take it to a rescue place and

893

:

says, oh my God, let somebody tell

this story if he's a story eater.

894

:

So tell the story.

895

:

What you doing with who you saving?

896

:

That's how they sell me there.

897

:

Cats that I was fostering because

they knew that nobody want them and

898

:

I'm the only one able to fix them.

899

:

Yeah.

900

:

They fix me six cats.

901

:

John: Yeah.

902

:

I, I think that's, that's a really

interesting, because I've, I've often

903

:

thought that probably the only thing

that would make that work was that

904

:

if it was a rescue situation, like

we would, like neither of us want

905

:

kids, but if it was a rescue kind of

operation, we would, uh, same with dog

906

:

or same with a cat, or pretty much any.

907

:

Being in need though with

that, that would work.

908

:

Susan Ibitz: First, you need to understand

why not When it says, when you have the

909

:

no, actually you have place to negotiate.

910

:

If I says yes and says, okay, yes.

911

:

What yes to what?

912

:

To have a dog to have a rescue.

913

:

When it says no and says, okay, why?

914

:

No.

915

:

It says when you mean like,

okay, I wanna know why.

916

:

Because she says No, doesn't mean

that I'm gonna take it because I wanna

917

:

dog and I wanna meet in the middle.

918

:

You understand?

919

:

Don't take it all you give them.

920

:

The power says, okay, it's not so I

take, no, you have the right on this

921

:

transactional conversation to know why.

922

:

I says, well, I'm afraid nobody's gonna

take them and we cannot go on vacation.

923

:

Now we know why.

924

:

It's not that he doesn't wanna have a dog.

925

:

It is that he's afraid that it's

gonna affect when I decide not to

926

:

have kids, it was, I'm not gonna

be good in everything that I do.

927

:

I didn't have the best childhood and

I don't wanna repeat the pattern.

928

:

I don't think I'm gonna be a good mother,

so I'm saving another kids from therapy.

929

:

I did it from the future kids.

930

:

And by the way, I didn't wanna give my

mother the chance to say, I told you so.

931

:

It's gonna be like you.

932

:

I was afraid terrorize

is gonna be like me.

933

:

But I was conscious decision.

934

:

And when I got married and says, I'm

not gonna have kids, he ended up,

935

:

he wanna have kids, good for you.

936

:

But I make a conscious decision.

937

:

So when I met someone, I was single

and says, I don't wanna have kids.

938

:

A, I wasn't the best child.

939

:

Second, I didn't have the best childhood.

940

:

Some people says, well, you can fix that.

941

:

That's what my brother did.

942

:

Good for him.

943

:

I will not gonna do it.

944

:

So, no, it's a chance to know

why and open a conversation.

945

:

So never talk and take a no.

946

:

Then Chris talk about the same.

947

:

And I agree with that.

948

:

With Chris, no is a chance to

know why when you have, yes, you

949

:

don't have too much to negotiate.

950

:

But if I say no, actually you can.

951

:

Makes the the conversation to

Yes, because this is, okay.

952

:

Mr.

953

:

Bloomington on the corner,

she loves to take dogs.

954

:

Okay?

955

:

Instead to have a big one, we can have

a small one still four legs, one tail.

956

:

Love you says.

957

:

What about cats?

958

:

They're more independent.

959

:

I used to have a dog and

I get too attached to him.

960

:

I says, cats, I can leave them

for four days when I'm going to

961

:

the city and they're independent.

962

:

Maybe it's a little more fairy,

says meow instead of wealth.

963

:

And maybe he doesn't

want the responsibility.

964

:

Choose your battles.

965

:

And no is a really good opportunity.

966

:

When the audience says

no, says, guys, you agree?

967

:

No.

968

:

Tell me why.

969

:

And tell me what is your experience?

970

:

And now you have a debate where

your audience is always about

971

:

playing this strength because your

strengths coming from the same

972

:

place that come in your weakness.

973

:

So,

974

:

John: so just exercising your

curiosity there is what's gonna

975

:

take it to a deeper conversation.

976

:

What about, though, in more maybe

business, business negotiations,

977

:

like conversations with Bookers, for

example, people who may be you, may

978

:

be speaking to, to get an event or

maybe to, uh, work, work with a client.

979

:

Is, is it the same principle?

980

:

Susan Ibitz: Uh, I would says you

need to know what you are able

981

:

to leave on the table if you're

negotiating for somebody else.

982

:

First, uh, John says, this is me.

983

:

Take it or leave it.

984

:

Like, eh, no, that's only for the movies.

985

:

Uh, I had did a lot of negotiation

with the union and I don't know how in

986

:

England and Europe is negotiation with

the union, but here is kind of harsh.

987

:

The union is, to be clear, Kennedy

the father, when Kennedy wanted to be

988

:

president, negotiate with two people,

the mafia in Vegas and the union.

989

:

That's how strong they used to be.

990

:

Not the same way Now.

991

:

But when I need to negotiate with them,

says, okay guys, you need to look good.

992

:

I need to look good.

993

:

I'm gonna tell you what

I'm allowed to tell you.

994

:

So this is my list with what?

995

:

Here in this envelope, I

know what is my final number.

996

:

I can wanna start a

hundred and give you a 10.

997

:

You need to do the same.

998

:

We can have coffee, laugh about it, and

people think that we're yelling to each

999

:

other so I know what I'm gonna take on

the table, or it's not on the table.

:

00:49:44,111 --> 00:49:46,151

Have a bad deal is better

not to having a deal.

:

00:49:46,211 --> 00:49:46,541

Why?

:

00:49:46,601 --> 00:49:47,531

Because we walk away.

:

00:49:47,861 --> 00:49:51,491

So you start talking about

rationalizing the negotiation

:

00:49:51,581 --> 00:49:52,481

and let's meet in the middle.

:

00:49:53,351 --> 00:49:55,121

You need to leave this

room with something.

:

00:49:55,271 --> 00:49:56,501

I need to live on the room.

:

00:49:56,561 --> 00:49:59,681

Now how the journey is gonna

have with the negotiation.

:

00:49:59,831 --> 00:50:01,451

You play it the way you want it.

:

00:50:01,841 --> 00:50:05,226

You wanna be right or you wanna win win.

:

00:50:05,231 --> 00:50:10,961

The biggest problem with negotiation is

you are gonna be the ego driven person.

:

00:50:11,831 --> 00:50:12,161

No.

:

00:50:12,761 --> 00:50:15,521

I was telling you about the, let's

put it in something that everybody

:

00:50:15,521 --> 00:50:18,731

can relate, even marry people,

because in some point you were single.

:

00:50:19,781 --> 00:50:23,591

This guy that I met, so I made in

an app and it's the first because

:

00:50:23,591 --> 00:50:24,821

I have a picture of my cat.

:

00:50:25,211 --> 00:50:26,561

So you know what you're dealing with.

:

00:50:26,921 --> 00:50:30,281

The first thing I says, do you

think you're you, do you think your

:

00:50:30,281 --> 00:50:32,381

sexiness is gonna cure my allergies?

:

00:50:32,411 --> 00:50:33,971

And says, dude, it's not gonna happen.

:

00:50:34,901 --> 00:50:35,951

It's not gonna happen.

:

00:50:35,951 --> 00:50:40,181

Even if I'm 20 years old and say, and

I says, how bad is your allergies?

:

00:50:40,586 --> 00:50:43,046

And says, well that

bad that I can kill me.

:

00:50:43,046 --> 00:50:47,006

He says, you know what, I will

die to know you, but I know health

:

00:50:47,006 --> 00:50:49,916

issues at this age are complicated.

:

00:50:49,916 --> 00:50:51,356

I will not gonna play with the game.

:

00:50:51,716 --> 00:50:56,426

Or you met me, you're gonna negotiate

and I'm gonna end up 9 1 1 calling 9

:

00:50:56,426 --> 00:50:59,576

1 1 2 o'clock in the morning killing

you before I have a ring on it.

:

00:50:59,876 --> 00:51:00,806

It's not gonna happen.

:

00:51:01,346 --> 00:51:03,176

And he says, for the what?

:

00:51:03,326 --> 00:51:03,836

For what?

:

00:51:03,836 --> 00:51:06,776

You says, I think I'm

gonna be missing someone.

:

00:51:06,776 --> 00:51:07,016

Amazing.

:

00:51:07,796 --> 00:51:09,806

I says, you like trouble,

like love trouble.

:

00:51:10,046 --> 00:51:12,716

He says, what happen if you

like me and with my cats?

:

00:51:12,836 --> 00:51:18,686

Well, I already texting allergists doctors

to go over and see, and he says, huh.

:

00:51:20,666 --> 00:51:25,256

So again, I was negotiating, talking

about, okay, he says, probably

:

00:51:25,256 --> 00:51:26,486

I'm not gonna go to your house.

:

00:51:26,756 --> 00:51:28,976

I'm gonna be introduced slowly to them.

:

00:51:29,246 --> 00:51:31,916

I'm gonna see if you have

hair on your, on your skin.

:

00:51:32,276 --> 00:51:34,556

Let's negotiate because I have three dogs.

:

00:51:34,556 --> 00:51:35,816

They're over 90 pounds.

:

00:51:36,461 --> 00:51:39,491

So well between year six,

so we start negotiating.

:

00:51:39,491 --> 00:51:43,301

We don't know each other yet,

but we were willing to understand

:

00:51:43,301 --> 00:51:46,151

that the end goal is over 50.

:

00:51:46,391 --> 00:51:50,531

Finding a partner is more difficult

than when you're twenties, and

:

00:51:50,531 --> 00:51:52,691

we understand the consequences.

:

00:51:53,021 --> 00:51:56,996

But if you have a young negotiator

with someone who is older, you have

:

00:51:56,996 --> 00:52:01,271

a person who come from a negotiating

part that doesn't understand the topic.

:

00:52:01,721 --> 00:52:03,161

Now your negotiation is fluk.

:

00:52:05,291 --> 00:52:09,341

So you need to have defined

and desire and clear what is

:

00:52:09,341 --> 00:52:11,141

the outcome you're negotiating.

:

00:52:11,591 --> 00:52:13,241

I'm negotiating to be happy.

:

00:52:13,931 --> 00:52:15,131

Can I give away the cat?

:

00:52:15,281 --> 00:52:15,761

No.

:

00:52:15,971 --> 00:52:17,891

They're all under a year and a half.

:

00:52:17,891 --> 00:52:19,811

So they're gonna be with me for 16 years.

:

00:52:20,711 --> 00:52:25,781

They have a five year lab and two

one year Labrador, another 16 years.

:

00:52:25,931 --> 00:52:27,071

We're stuck on the same.

:

00:52:27,401 --> 00:52:31,601

We lower our pets and it's non-negotiable

because when your kids are old.

:

00:52:32,021 --> 00:52:34,091

You don't have kids, it's non-negotiable.

:

00:52:34,091 --> 00:52:35,351

Pets become your family.

:

00:52:35,831 --> 00:52:38,471

So we know that, how are

we gonna make it work?

:

00:52:38,831 --> 00:52:41,501

I need to make my bed higher

and he get injections.

:

00:52:42,131 --> 00:52:43,211

That's a negotiation.

:

00:52:43,391 --> 00:52:46,901

And I put it in a context that everybody

can understand what is negotiating.

:

00:52:47,801 --> 00:52:48,041

John: Yeah.

:

00:52:48,166 --> 00:52:51,431

It, it makes me think of

that story, principle of the

:

00:52:51,431 --> 00:52:53,171

obstacle is the way mm-hmm.

:

00:52:53,411 --> 00:52:57,071

That, um, generally in life,

if something is too easy.

:

00:52:57,836 --> 00:52:59,396

We often don't want it.

:

00:52:59,396 --> 00:53:01,466

Like if it's easy to

have, we don't want it.

:

00:53:01,466 --> 00:53:05,186

But when there's challenge there, uh,

that becomes the way to growth and

:

00:53:05,186 --> 00:53:06,956

development and interesting things.

:

00:53:06,956 --> 00:53:09,176

Like we, like we need challenge.

:

00:53:09,176 --> 00:53:10,676

We don't grow without challenge.

:

00:53:10,676 --> 00:53:11,846

We don't develop without it.

:

00:53:11,846 --> 00:53:15,956

And, and, and it's, it's kind

of about having the right kinds

:

00:53:15,956 --> 00:53:19,406

of challenges in the right kinds

of situations that create those

:

00:53:19,406 --> 00:53:22,556

opportunities for, for development for.

:

00:53:22,636 --> 00:53:26,716

Something to move or change or to,

for a conversation to go deeper.

:

00:53:26,716 --> 00:53:31,126

I find it fascinating from, uh, from

that perspective that we, uh, we

:

00:53:31,126 --> 00:53:34,816

often think we wish our lives were

easier, but if we actually really

:

00:53:34,816 --> 00:53:36,316

think about it, we probably don't.

:

00:53:36,376 --> 00:53:38,386

If life was too easy, it

would be boring, right?

:

00:53:38,866 --> 00:53:42,136

Susan Ibitz: Uh, your restraints

are your, uh, weakness and

:

00:53:43,311 --> 00:53:44,911

I guess who made it to this?

:

00:53:45,731 --> 00:53:47,531

Hi, this is Malt, by the way.

:

00:53:47,531 --> 00:53:48,941

You know when I know the name of my cat?

:

00:53:49,121 --> 00:53:50,171

Scotch Whiskey.

:

00:53:50,471 --> 00:53:51,551

Bourbon Malt.

:

00:53:51,701 --> 00:53:52,691

Tequila and Vodka.

:

00:53:52,991 --> 00:53:53,651

I don't have cats.

:

00:53:53,951 --> 00:53:54,386

I have a, alright, a

:

00:53:54,391 --> 00:53:54,431

John: theme.

:

00:53:54,941 --> 00:53:55,781

I'm spotting a theme.

:

00:53:56,261 --> 00:53:56,531

Susan Ibitz: Yeah.

:

00:53:57,221 --> 00:54:01,661

So your restraints are the same

coming from your, uh, weakness.

:

00:54:02,441 --> 00:54:06,071

So I don't have witness for

people, I have witness for pets.

:

00:54:06,191 --> 00:54:06,761

I know that.

:

00:54:06,971 --> 00:54:10,691

So I, it's gonna be

difficult to negotiate.

:

00:54:11,201 --> 00:54:14,321

Uh, you need to understand

what are the problems.

:

00:54:14,921 --> 00:54:18,821

When you need to have a conversation or

negotiation says, what is non-negotiable?

:

00:54:19,361 --> 00:54:20,686

No, but I wanna tell you, no, no, no.

:

00:54:20,691 --> 00:54:21,731

What is non-negotiable?

:

00:54:22,451 --> 00:54:25,481

What is the things that

you cannot negotiate with?

:

00:54:26,051 --> 00:54:29,561

And I do it on dating, I do it

on business, and people think

:

00:54:29,591 --> 00:54:31,421

even then I don't have feelings.

:

00:54:31,691 --> 00:54:33,251

I do have feelings for the right things.

:

00:54:33,641 --> 00:54:36,431

When you call me, it's because you

need to fix something, because your

:

00:54:36,431 --> 00:54:38,831

emotion getting on the way to fix this.

:

00:54:39,446 --> 00:54:40,226

That is the problem.

:

00:54:40,226 --> 00:54:43,196

So you call me because I'm not

biased, because I don't care.

:

00:54:43,226 --> 00:54:44,816

I have a paycheck, I'm a mercenary.

:

00:54:45,176 --> 00:54:45,716

Guess what?

:

00:54:45,956 --> 00:54:49,016

Being a mercenary, at that point, you

need somebody who's less emotional.

:

00:54:49,016 --> 00:54:50,576

So you need to get the things done.

:

00:54:51,236 --> 00:54:53,276

So you always negotiating with something.

:

00:54:53,396 --> 00:54:55,916

You always know your obstacles first.

:

00:54:56,366 --> 00:55:00,896

If you wanna go to Europe, okay,

you have probably three options once

:

00:55:00,896 --> 00:55:03,296

you get in lot and, and get the uk.

:

00:55:03,716 --> 00:55:07,676

You can't take the underwater,

not even a ham that No, no.

:

00:55:07,676 --> 00:55:10,586

I have, I watch too many movies

in the United States where

:

00:55:10,586 --> 00:55:12,446

those, those things collapse.

:

00:55:12,806 --> 00:55:15,686

You're not gonna gimme date

there, even if you drug me.

:

00:55:16,106 --> 00:55:18,416

So I gonna take a boat, we're gonna fly.

:

00:55:19,286 --> 00:55:20,126

There are two options.

:

00:55:20,396 --> 00:55:20,726

I know.

:

00:55:20,726 --> 00:55:22,166

What are the options to negotiate?

:

00:55:22,526 --> 00:55:23,876

We're gonna see prices.

:

00:55:23,876 --> 00:55:24,926

What is the journey?

:

00:55:24,926 --> 00:55:25,796

What are we gonna do?

:

00:55:26,186 --> 00:55:27,296

So that's what happened.

:

00:55:27,296 --> 00:55:29,726

And you're in Europe,

you can take a train.

:

00:55:29,726 --> 00:55:31,106

We can rent a car.

:

00:55:31,376 --> 00:55:33,506

So, but you have options to go there.

:

00:55:33,926 --> 00:55:37,946

My obstacle is go from London

to Europe to the continent.

:

00:55:38,126 --> 00:55:40,106

When I'm there, it's no more obstacle.

:

00:55:40,226 --> 00:55:41,576

Let's see what life get us.

:

00:55:41,906 --> 00:55:46,016

When I'm going to Europe, I backpacking,

I'm going to Goodwill, and I get all these

:

00:55:46,016 --> 00:55:48,296

used jeans and t-shirts and Walmart like.

:

00:55:48,656 --> 00:55:51,686

I threw clothing with my backpack

and people are like, what?

:

00:55:52,016 --> 00:55:53,096

I'm gonna hostels.

:

00:55:53,486 --> 00:55:57,386

I love to go to uncom places

out of my comfort zone.

:

00:55:57,386 --> 00:55:58,436

People like what?

:

00:55:58,676 --> 00:55:58,946

Yeah.

:

00:55:59,306 --> 00:56:00,566

That's the reason I travel alone.

:

00:56:01,226 --> 00:56:03,086

That's the reason I have friends in China.

:

00:56:03,206 --> 00:56:08,456

So the obstacle is my obstacle

when I decide to start doing this

:

00:56:08,456 --> 00:56:10,496

journey once a year to Europe.

:

00:56:11,486 --> 00:56:14,156

To hospital, and I'm

too old for, guess what?

:

00:56:14,156 --> 00:56:14,966

I'm not the only one.

:

00:56:15,266 --> 00:56:17,246

I found people in the

sixties and seventies.

:

00:56:17,756 --> 00:56:23,756

So the obstacle was me being afraid

to be in front of people and I decide

:

00:56:23,756 --> 00:56:26,246

to carry that obstacle in a way that.

:

00:56:27,401 --> 00:56:31,091

What if the obstacle is the

best, the best thing can happen?

:

00:56:31,391 --> 00:56:35,261

What if that obstacle is gonna allow

me to have friends all over the world?

:

00:56:35,531 --> 00:56:38,801

That's how I go to, to

have wine in France.

:

00:56:39,161 --> 00:56:43,151

I'll go to Portugal, Italy, because

I have friends all around the world.

:

00:56:43,151 --> 00:56:43,451

Why?

:

00:56:43,781 --> 00:56:46,121

Because the obstacle

become my best strength.

:

00:56:46,841 --> 00:56:48,401

Being afraid to talk to strangers.

:

00:56:50,201 --> 00:56:52,361

John: Yeah, I think, um, certainly.

:

00:56:52,826 --> 00:56:56,456

It inspires me to want to do

something but not go to hostels,

:

00:56:56,856 --> 00:56:58,826

so, that's my idea of hell.

:

00:56:58,886 --> 00:56:59,306

Susan Ibitz: Okay.

:

00:56:59,876 --> 00:57:03,506

We remember the hostel movie

and I was having lunch with a

:

00:57:03,506 --> 00:57:07,586

friend that she suddenly become

widow at the age of 56 Hor.

:

00:57:08,516 --> 00:57:10,436

Um, she went home, he was dead.

:

00:57:11,186 --> 00:57:13,526

Clean bill that morning from the doctor.

:

00:57:13,526 --> 00:57:13,976

Horrible.

:

00:57:14,456 --> 00:57:15,206

And he says, Hey.

:

00:57:15,656 --> 00:57:18,686

He says, Hey, I, I open an

office in, in London now.

:

00:57:18,686 --> 00:57:20,336

It says I, I'm gonna go with you.

:

00:57:20,336 --> 00:57:24,206

Like I need to tell you I'm not gonna,

BB, like, you have an apartment.

:

00:57:24,206 --> 00:57:26,636

Like, no, I'm gonna, what the heck?

:

00:57:26,726 --> 00:57:29,876

She says, you were

married for 30, 32 years.

:

00:57:30,116 --> 00:57:31,586

Have you ever done anything crazy?

:

00:57:31,676 --> 00:57:31,946

No.

:

00:57:32,066 --> 00:57:33,206

Maybe it's the time to do it.

:

00:57:33,746 --> 00:57:38,216

She's like, Hmm, lemme think about,

it's not enough wine on the table yet to

:

00:57:38,216 --> 00:57:40,106

decide, like, so I need to put a drunk.

:

00:57:40,436 --> 00:57:43,076

But she's thinking about

it, so why not hostel?

:

00:57:43,136 --> 00:57:44,631

Tell me, John, why you

wouldn't go to a hostel?

:

00:57:45,641 --> 00:57:50,141

John: Oh gosh, I haven't been to a

hostel since, uh, my early twenties.

:

00:57:50,231 --> 00:57:54,551

And, um, I think it's the, one of

the big reasons now why I wouldn't

:

00:57:54,641 --> 00:57:58,631

is, uh, I don't have much, I don't

have a high level of tolerance for

:

00:57:58,631 --> 00:58:00,966

other people the way that I used to.

:

00:58:02,076 --> 00:58:08,496

Susan Ibitz: What if you see it that that

can help you to manage, uh, Vaseline suit?

:

00:58:09,416 --> 00:58:13,076

Meaning that you learn to

ostracize yourself from a

:

00:58:13,076 --> 00:58:15,446

stupidity and actually have fun.

:

00:58:15,536 --> 00:58:17,936

What if we look up, so you

see what I'm doing there?

:

00:58:18,506 --> 00:58:20,576

John: I could see the

I, I see the reframe.

:

00:58:20,576 --> 00:58:20,876

Yeah.

:

00:58:20,876 --> 00:58:22,106

I can definitely see that.

:

00:58:22,376 --> 00:58:25,526

I don't think it's something I

wanna explore, but, but I will look

:

00:58:25,526 --> 00:58:28,676

at other opportunities to go in

the similar path because I think

:

00:58:28,676 --> 00:58:29,571

what, what is your drink of choice?

:

00:58:30,911 --> 00:58:34,241

For me, um, I, it's red wine generally.

:

00:58:34,481 --> 00:58:34,871

Susan Ibitz: Okay.

:

00:58:34,871 --> 00:58:37,811

I'm gonna load it after the second one,

:

00:58:40,631 --> 00:58:42,401

no matter, no matter how

I gonna get you there.

:

00:58:44,921 --> 00:58:47,291

John: That's, that's a different

kind of negotiation, but I like it.

:

00:58:47,741 --> 00:58:50,861

Um, I've really been enjoying this

conversation season and there's so

:

00:58:50,861 --> 00:58:55,091

many areas that we could go into that

are just fascinating and, uh, and

:

00:58:55,091 --> 00:58:59,261

it's really interesting to someone

who has your unique perspectives on

:

00:58:59,261 --> 00:59:00,971

things as well, which is great to hear.

:

00:59:01,631 --> 00:59:06,161

I wonder for, for our listener who

maybe wants to find out more about you

:

00:59:06,161 --> 00:59:10,151

and, and how maybe even to work with

you or learn from you, what would be

:

00:59:10,151 --> 00:59:12,011

the best way for them to, to do that?

:

00:59:12,011 --> 00:59:12,236

Where should they go?

:

00:59:13,241 --> 00:59:15,371

Susan Ibitz: There are two Susan

Ibitz all around the world.

:

00:59:16,181 --> 00:59:18,821

We are both in academia,

but I'm the most exposed.

:

00:59:18,941 --> 00:59:22,061

So I would says Google Susan

ibe, and see what you conquer

:

00:59:22,181 --> 00:59:23,351

and see what stick to you.

:

00:59:23,771 --> 00:59:26,921

I have websites for companies

and research and YouTube.

:

00:59:26,981 --> 00:59:29,801

I'm all over the place,

but I always love to see.

:

00:59:29,981 --> 00:59:32,291

Google Me says That is easy.

:

00:59:32,471 --> 00:59:36,281

Yeah, I wanna see what stick with

you because I'm the same person,

:

00:59:36,311 --> 00:59:37,961

but I have, I'm like an onion.

:

00:59:38,021 --> 00:59:38,951

I have many shades.

:

00:59:40,061 --> 00:59:44,591

I can be a bit, I can be the negotiator,

I can be the interrogator, I can

:

00:59:44,591 --> 00:59:47,561

be the kind, I can be the impact,

I can be the crazy, I can be all

:

00:59:47,561 --> 00:59:51,671

that people that's making me who

I'm, I wanna see what stick to you.

:

00:59:51,911 --> 00:59:55,341

So it would be easy to

test susan ibitz.com.

:

00:59:55,361 --> 00:59:56,861

Yeah, that is what it says.

:

00:59:56,861 --> 00:59:58,211

The website, that corporate.

:

00:59:58,721 --> 00:59:59,951

But let's see what Stick with you.

:

01:00:00,011 --> 01:00:04,481

What are the newsletter is the

videos is the new podcast, irrational

:

01:00:04,481 --> 01:00:06,521

Human, where I talk about like.

:

01:00:07,076 --> 01:00:09,956

I always took stories about

I Russian people that I met,

:

01:00:09,956 --> 01:00:10,946

and I think it's amazing.

:

01:00:11,486 --> 01:00:15,206

Always tell the story, never the

person involved in the story.

:

01:00:15,386 --> 01:00:17,516

Be discrete, remember, but yeah.

:

01:00:17,756 --> 01:00:18,266

Cool me.

:

01:00:18,266 --> 01:00:18,896

See what happens.

:

01:00:19,136 --> 01:00:20,726

You never know what

life is gonna take you.

:

01:00:21,686 --> 01:00:23,216

John: Uh, that's a great point.

:

01:00:23,276 --> 01:00:26,426

Uh, great note on which to

end our conversation today.

:

01:00:26,426 --> 01:00:29,156

Susan, thank you for coming and

being a guest on percent Influence.

:

01:00:29,726 --> 01:00:30,446

Susan Ibitz: Thank you very much.

:

01:00:30,446 --> 01:00:31,526

And again, apologize.

:

01:00:31,526 --> 01:00:33,506

The audience, John is lovely.

:

01:00:33,686 --> 01:00:35,096

He have a patient.

:

01:00:35,096 --> 01:00:38,876

When you says I don't have patient

for people you do, has been really

:

01:00:38,876 --> 01:00:41,096

patient with my cat, you're being doll.

:

01:00:41,096 --> 01:00:44,361

I don't know how the heck you

edit this, but I love you for it.

:

01:00:45,481 --> 01:00:51,361

John: I, I, I am lucky enough to

have very good, um, audio, um, audio

:

01:00:51,506 --> 01:00:55,496

enhancing software that will probably

cut out most of the background.

:

01:00:55,496 --> 01:00:57,896

It's probably not all, but

most of it, but, so it's

:

01:00:57,896 --> 01:01:03,686

Susan Ibitz: Susan i dash responsibility,

dash irresponsible, dash irrational.

:

01:01:04,016 --> 01:01:04,556

Makes sense.

:

01:01:05,831 --> 01:01:07,526

John: It's all good, Susan.

:

01:01:07,526 --> 01:01:08,066

Thank you.

:

01:01:08,071 --> 01:01:08,321

Thanks.

:

01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:10,450

in review of this episode,

hopefully you're now at least

:

01:01:10,450 --> 01:01:13,990

feeling ready to negotiate smarter,

read people quicker, and build

:

01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:15,760

real authority without posturing.

:

01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:19,750

If you keep relying on canned lions

or pure logic, you will lose the

:

01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:22,000

room to emotion bias and fatigue.

:

01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,380

So rewatch and note three moves

to practice this week open with

:

01:01:26,380 --> 01:01:28,720

a genuine me too connection.

:

01:01:29,365 --> 01:01:31,855

State warm plus assertive intent

:

01:01:32,605 --> 01:01:37,195

trade fairly knowing what you can and

cannot put on the table and then test

:

01:01:37,225 --> 01:01:39,655

one tactic in your next call or meeting.

:

01:01:40,205 --> 01:01:43,775

These are the same principles Susan used

in high stakes environments and the top

:

01:01:43,775 --> 01:01:46,775

negotiators use to get durable yeses.

:

01:01:46,985 --> 01:01:48,935

If this helped, make sure

you subscribe to the show.

:

01:01:49,245 --> 01:01:52,605

Drop your biggest takeaway into the

comments or maybe even share this with

:

01:01:52,605 --> 01:01:54,765

a friend who negotiates for a living.

:

01:01:56,385 --> 01:01:58,875

Wherever you're going, whatever

you're doing, have an amazing week.

:

01:01:58,875 --> 01:01:59,560

We'll see you next time.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence: The Professional Speaking Show
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About your host

Profile picture for John Ball

John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.