Episode 238
Influencing the Irrational: Lessons from a Hostage Negotiator with Susan Ibitz
Mastering Negotiation: From Hostage Tactics to Everyday Deals with Susan Ibitz
SUMMARY
In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball interviews Susan Ibitz, an expert in international hostage negotiation, interrogation, and behavioural analysis, about applying real hostage negotiation strategies to everyday situations. Susan shares practical tactics for establishing instant rapport, navigating irrational behaviour, and negotiating without scripts. She discusses the balance of warmth and assertiveness in communication and the importance of understanding both your own and others' irrational behaviours. The episode also highlights the value of strategic negotiation in various contexts, from personal relationships to high-stakes business deals, and encourages listeners to embrace their authentic selves to find their true tribe.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Hostage Negotiation Techniques
01:51 Meet Susan Ibitz: Hostage Negotiator and Behavioural Analyst
02:24 The Importance of Authenticity and Finding Your Tribe
03:25 Susan's Journey: From Personal Struggles to Professional Success
08:53 Communication Techniques for Building Rapport
13:21 Understanding and Managing Irrational Behaviour
32:46 Reflecting on Fashion Choices
34:01 The Challenges of Public Speaking
35:07 Introverts vs. Extroverts in Public Speaking
40:57 Finding Your Happy Place
42:46 The Importance of Negotiation
52:48 Overcoming Obstacles for Personal Growth
01:01:08 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
What if you could borrow from real hostage negotiation tools to win
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:fair deals, calm tense conversations,
and connect fast with anyone.
3
:Most of us rely on scripts or talk
too much or get hijacked by other
4
:people's emotions or even our own.
5
:These things cost, trust,
sales and opportunities.
6
:My guest today, Susan Ibitz, breaks
down practical tactics that you can use
7
:today from her Me Too moment for instant
rapport, warm plus assertive framing,
8
:and how to negotiate without scripts
and how to navigate irrational behavior
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:at work, at home, and even on stage.
10
:Now, I'll say this, this episode
may not be for everybody.
11
:If you really don't like to step outside
of the norms of society, if you're
12
:the kind of person who prefers to
fit into the molds that are presented
13
:for you and live by the archetypal
images that society has ready for you,
14
:then this may not be the episode that
you are gonna get the most out of.
15
:If you are someone who likes to
at least understand irationality
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:and maybe see where there might be
opportunity within that to let your
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:freak flag fly to embrace the oddities,
quirks, weirdness about ourselves?
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:And maybe you will leverage that to help
you find your people, your tribe, the
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:places where you are going to resonate
and make the biggest impact rather
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:than trying to please everybody in this
episode might be very much for you.
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:Now, I apologize in advance.
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:There are some audio issues, not least
that Susan has about six cats that were
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:running riot whilst we were recording,
and I've done my best to try and,
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:uh, edit out that background noise.
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:But there is still some of it in
the episode, so you will hear it.
26
:You'll also hear it referred
to by Susan as we speak.
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:Also, I did my very best to make the sound
quality as good as possible, but there was
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:a limit to what I could do, so hopefully
you will at least find it listenable.
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:I would say this is absolutely worth
sticking with what may not be perfect
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:audio to get what Susan has to share.
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:Now.
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:Also, Susan trained in
international hostage negotiation.
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:Much like you may have
come across Chris Ross.
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:We talk about him a
little in the episode two.
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:She's worked across interrogation,
political consulting,
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:and behavioral analysis.
37
:She now teaches leaders how to
influence ethically and effectively.
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:If you're still with
us, enjoy the episode.
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:Welcome to Present Influence, the
show for speakers, coaches and
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:expert business owners who want
to deliver more impact, influence,
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:and inspiration in their message.
42
:My name's John Ball, keynote
speaker, communication coach,
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:and your guide on this journey to
mastery level communication skills.
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:Susan, welcome to the show.
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:I've really been looking
forward to speaking to you.
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:We're gonna get into some interesting
topics today, and we're gonna
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:be looking much more, I guess,
on the influence side of things.
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:But, uh, first of all, welcome,
great to be speaking with you today.
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:Susan Ibitz: Thank you for
having me, John, because when I
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:approached to you, I know my email
was not conventional, introducing
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:myself and it says it's perfect.
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:Like, great.
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:You need to find your people
first, then define your business.
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:So you're my people.
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:Love it.
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:John: It's the stuff that stands
out that gets attention, right?
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:I get so many pitches from people that all
look the same or they don't really tell
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:me anything, or they just tell me how good
their guests are or how good they are.
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:And, uh, I don't want that.
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:I want someone who's actually gonna
be able to talk, having interesting
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:conversation with, and talk about
some interesting things, and you
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:definitely fit the bill for that.
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:So, uh.
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:Definitely, I think this is
gonna be a, a great episode.
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:So let's get into some really interesting
stuff 'cause you have such an amazing
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:background and not gonna, I'm not
gonna ask you to list it all off.
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:Hopefully people have listened
to the introduction to the show,
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:but, um, but I will, will ask.
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:One of the things that I think was
very much striking and stood out for
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:me when we spoke and, and in your
pitch as well, was that you have been
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:involved in hostage negotiations.
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:Uh, and I can't imagine that
there's a more, more vital area
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:for influence skills than that can.
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:Can you share a little bit about what that
experience has been like and maybe what
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:have been the key elements of influence
and persuasion for you working there?
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:Susan Ibitz: I says you cannot talk
about pain if you don't have the pain.
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:I don't say it, a doctor need
to have cancer to understand
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:consultations, but I feel hostage
of my own persona for a long time.
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:Like we were talking, I was yellow.
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:I was, I wanna fit in everybody's,
uh, box and I don't fit in any box.
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:Um, I have Asperger, I dyslexic.
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:I was born in Latin America.
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:I have a huge accent due to my dyslexia,
and I understand I was hostage of
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:what people was expecting from me.
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:So when I was in my late thirties, I
went to London to study, uh, love London.
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:That's where I used to live before they
bring me to United States when I was 29.
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:I was doing this master and I found out
that some of the people in the master
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:was spotting for people that were
special to bring to some units in London.
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:So they approached me and says,
we think that you have aspergers.
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:Like, oh, because I don't have
anything else in my life, my life
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:to go with this actually is great.
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:Uh, six.
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:Every 10 of our profilers
have what you have.
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:So in your IQ is we think is higher
than normal, can we test you?
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:They test me and they find out it's true.
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:I says, wait a minute,
there's nothing wrong with me.
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:So I went back to United States.
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:I politely denied that opportunity.
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:I need to let go, and I start studying.
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:Someone contact me and says,
I think that you will be great
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:to be a hostage negotiator.
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:Why?
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:It's not because you belong to any
forces is because what you can bring
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:to the table is the understanding
that, you can influence people
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:and understand how to influence
people through the words they use.
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:More important, what they don't use.
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:That's how they caught the, so I
studied hostage negotiator one and two.
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:I was allowed to be level three.
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:That's most of the hostage
negotiator and graduate as a
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:international hostage negotiator.
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:Please don't be in a plane with me and
a white Japan and somebody take it.
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:Just I don't want to.
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:I love it.
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:Let's hope
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:John: not.
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:But how, how did you feel when, about,
about the whole thing when, when
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:that was suggested to you, will you
just straight away like, yep, that's,
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:that's for me, that's what I wanna do?
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:Or what, what came out for you there?
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:Susan Ibitz: Okay.
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:As a five years old to have
free pass to Disneyworld.
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:What everybody wanna be one of them,
like when you says that, like when I
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:don't wanna talk about me and says, oh,
I'm a former civilian hostage negotiator
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:trained by, uh, military interrogation
and 18 years political consultant.
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:They don't care.
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:What is my name?
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:Just go for it.
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:Everybody want, I was telling you people
watch serial killer series to relax.
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:Like it's fascinating not for dating.
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:Uh, so I went through the
process, but more important, I
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:understood how we are judgemental.
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:So we says, oh, this person is trying
to commit suicide because you have
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:two kinds of hostage negotiator.
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:The hostage taken, that is an
active shooter that become a hostage
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:situation where you negotiate 99.9%
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:on the phone, sometime the team, not even
from the same state or the same country.
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:And after that you have barricades.
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:Barricades is when somebody
tried to commit suicide.
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:And your job is try,
I'm sorry for the noise.
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:I have six, six cats.
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:Then I cannot keep holding.
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:So it's not your, it's not John's
fault, it's my cat's fault.
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:Um, and you need to try to that
person not to commit suicide.
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:You cannot lie.
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:You cannot say yes, no, and
then you cannot lie, right?
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:Because that person is gonna be in
two weeks on the same position and you
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:are gonna be hold for that position.
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:So without lying, how
you convince someone?
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:So those so desperate, two requ, you
have two positions and cost a negotiator.
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:I put a bullet between your eyes or
you come up out and handcuff you.
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:So understanding how that
work, give me a parameter.
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:I'm like, I don't need to be judgmental.
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:I need to forget my biases.
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:I need to forget what I think
about it, and I need to ask more
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:questions and I need to understand.
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:Doesn't mean that I get where you ended
up there, but I need to understand
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:why your story get you there.
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:We have three stories, the
person's story, my story, how
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:I am there, and the story we.
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:Put together to make sure you
leaving from that situation.
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:So it's come from a storytelling that
people who does public speaking, they
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:need to understand you need to be a story.
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:Doesn't mean that your story is
important, but the story where
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:you're gonna get people there.
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:And that's will host negotiation.
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:Give me and after that, going to Harvard
to start study negotiation with lawyers.
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:I not the most proud time of my
times because I have fun having
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:fun with them because I was one
step ahead with them, the lawyers.
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:So, but yeah, that's how much
and deep get to that topic.
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:John: Cool.
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:And I, I expect most of us will never
be in a position where we are required
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:to do that kind of negotiation.
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:But I So you say story was a
critical part of understanding
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:this work and doing this work.
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:Are there any of the sort communication
techniques that you are able to
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:share that might be helpful for
other areas of life as well?
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:Susan Ibitz: When you talk about
communication technique, because I
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:gave a workshop two weeks ago about.
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:Public speaking public and people public.
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:And I did it on purpose to understand,
okay, what is public speaking?
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:You go to the market and you wanna know
what is the fresh fish on the market.
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:You need to establish a communication with
others because what is your role to have
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:a fresh fish so your guests are not sick?
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:So in order to get that, you
need to establish rapport.
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:John: Yeah,
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:Susan Ibitz: to establish rapport.
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:You cannot be cold.
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:But you need to warm and
assertive, warm and assertive and
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:says, Hey John, how you doing?
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:So you play the piano.
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:I'm horrible playing piano, but I can
tell you I love to go to the concert.
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:I know about what Mozart
rashman enough so.
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:I care about your surroundings, I care
about something that you care about
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:to be showing, and I acknowledge my
ignorance on the topic, giving you the
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:expertise and give you the upper hand.
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:But another way it says that I know enough
to appreciate what you're gonna tell me.
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:I have the assertiveness to know that
what you are gonna share with me is
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:gonna be appreciated because I have the
background to understand what you said.
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:I would define communication in that way.
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:Make sense?
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:John: Yeah, absolutely.
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:So there's a degree, it sounds, at
least you can correct me if I'm wrong,
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:that there is, um, an element of,
with the rapport you are creating that
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:likability factor and common, common
points of interest that say that we,
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:we are similar at least in some way.
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:Susan Ibitz: The Me Too is not a team
me too movement, it's the me Too moment.
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:Then I start with this 20 years
ago and got kind of de de and
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:people says, change the name.
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:No.
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:I start first.
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:I have a Godfather rule.
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:Everybody have something in common?
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:You're from London.
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:I, my last time was London.
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:I love London.
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:I was planning to retire this in England.
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:England.
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:I love England.
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:I love the food, I love the accent.
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:I love the, nobody care about your accent.
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:I love the, at 5:00 PM
we're going for a pint.
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:I love that the elevator is,
uh, live, that you call it flat.
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:I love everything about all
London, even the weather.
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:Because I'm ait, so it's
an excuse not to go out.
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:So that is the me too.
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:So in everybody have something in common.
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:I have talked to interrogators that
says, well, we are in the same room.
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:That is the thing that you have in
common in a relationship, why you
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:are relationships and as adult,
well, we look for a partner.
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:You look for the Me too.
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:We like dogs, we love cats.
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:We hate the government.
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:You never know.
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:What are the things
that bring you together.
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:So sometimes that I says, the
enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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:That is my me to, uh, moment.
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:Why?
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:Because we have something in common.
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:Never be fake.
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:We need why lies to
lubricate relationships.
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:But a good one lie, need to be 75% True.
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:I can says, how you doing?
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:Like, oh, doing great.
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:I have a shitty day.
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:I didn't sleep.
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:I have a fight with my relationship.
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:Yeah, I'm having a good day now
because I'm talking with you.
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:You don't need to know the
other 25% that it's not working.
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:So when people meet you on a networking
or meet you in a place where they expect
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:from you to be social love again and
bely, don't make it too complicated.
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:Be careful what you're sharing
and not sharing over sharing.
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:You have people that can be a liability
and you have people who can be an asset.
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:If every time then I pick up
the phone and says, oh God is
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:Margaret, what is the drama today?
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:I don't have nonwhite.
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:Sorry, Margaret.
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:Go to the voicemail.
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:Well, I'm getting ready to go to a
place and suddenly I asking myself,
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:what the heck I'm doing here?
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:Why I'm looking for an excuse to go.
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:You have a communication with
yourself that is a problem.
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:You're not being honest with yourself.
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:So how you gonna show up?
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:How you're gonna be talking with
Margaret, how you're gonna be
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:interacting with our Margaret?
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:Margaret gonna think that you're and
not a nice person when in reality the
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:problem is you don't communicate with
yourself, yourself to says, Margaret,
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:you're not my people, and it's okay.
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:John: So there's a, a somewhat
strategic element in, in general
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:communication as well that at least
is about bringing more, it, it sounds
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:at least bringing more conscious
awareness into what you think, what you
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:say, how you say, how, how you show.
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:There's a lot of elements to,
to keep in mind whilst you are
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:communicating, especially in
those professional situations.
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:Susan Ibitz: I think you need
to be strategic all the time.
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:When I talk on, people say
I'm extremely transactional.
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:I said, it doesn't sound good.
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:Why?
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:You go to the doctor.
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:You pay to the doctor
to have a diagnostic.
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:I'm gonna the market, I'm
gonna pay for the bananas.
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:So I approach to you because
I wanted to put more exposure.
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:My team is put again in my head,
says, Susan, do it, or we gonna do it.
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:And okay, I choose how to do it.
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:I wanna go places where I wanna be, where
I take the time to listen to the podcast.
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:I know we have things in common.
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:That is gonna be transactional for both.
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:I'm gonna give you a show.
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:You're gonna gimme exposure.
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:Exposure, and we're gonna have a
conversation where I, we can leave each
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:other better than when we find it and we
can give your audience something they can
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:take that is transactional and it's okay.
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:Yeah.
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:So it's nothing wrong to name the
things that, how they are when people
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:says what, what is the difference
between influence and manipulation?
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:Like, whatever you wanna name it.
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:If you're gonna make your kids eat
broccoli because you hide it on this
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:spaghetti, or you're gonna put healthy
french fries on the McDonald packet,
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:well tell me what is different there.
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:Not too much.
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:Just how you approach it
is the end goal on that.
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:So if transactional wise, I approach
this new saying, okay, this is what
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:we both can take about away from that
transactional manipulation influence.
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:It's not too different people, I
think you get too hot on the words.
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:And not what is the idea of the situation?
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:You put it on.
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:John: Yeah, I, I think from my
experience and say from my, my own
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:point of view really as well, I look
at it and this way I like, it's only
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:gonna be those transactional elements.
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:It should be, life is,
life is all about that.
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:We have to interact and
transact with each other.
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:And doing things like a
podcast is, it's inevitable.
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:There's gonna be a give
and take there as well.
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:But beyond that is also.
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:A level of connection that that
comes through there as well.
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:Even if the connection is just for
the, um, just for the interview time
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:or whether it goes on beyond that, you
feel like there's something more than
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:just the, hopefully at least something,
just more than the interaction,
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:more than the transactional as well.
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:Do, do you get what I'm saying?
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:Susan Ibitz: Yeah.
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:See, that's what I'm saying is
you can talk tomato, tomato.
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:Is red and it's gonna end up in my pizza.
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:So it's, it's the end goal.
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:You have two ways you care about the
people, care about the destination,
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:and people who care about the journey.
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:I'm a strategic, um,
completely left brain.
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:I go to, like, I don't waste my time.
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:I get organized.
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:I get things that more people says,
how the heck you manage so many things.
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:Because when I need to get
done, I don't think of the thing
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:that is gonna happen later.
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:So you need to have an end.
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:So if you're a journey person, you're
gonna be wasting my time because I
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:don't care how many sandwich I have.
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:I need to know that I need to
be in two hours in some place.
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:Where are we gonna stop?
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:Like I don't care.
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:I'm sure we're gonna find food.
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:We are not, I'm not gonna
be carrying 17 sandwiches.
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:So it's not about the journey, it's what
I need to conquer that the reason I'm
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:not fixer, that the reason I'm good and
I job that the reason people call me.
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:I'm not the traditional person
that you're can approach.
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:I have clients who says, I never
would've hired you if I see on the media.
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:I only hire because I know who you help.
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:Another people says, you are
my style person and it's okay.
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:I don't take it personal.
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:You have a style and again, narrow
your needs, narrow your audience.
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:Pick your clients before you
pick your, uh, your business.
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:Pick your audience
before you're gonna talk.
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:Pick up how you're gonna be perceived.
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:Pick up who you're gonna be
before you put it out there.
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:I told you I was trying to be
vanilla in the beginning and I was
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:flunking until it says, okay Susan,
you're gonna go full on who you are.
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:Take it a lever.
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:And I pissed off 80% of the
people to have my niche.
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:That is the 20% of weirdos.
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:As we, and I always say, be
as weird as I am, please.
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:That's that is my people.
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:So I make it clear you need to be weird.
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:And by the way, we is amazing because
the first circus was an animals, those
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:people, so people lost crazy people.
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:John: Yeah, no, I think
that's really true.
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:I think we all want to, I've heard
other people put it on the show, like,
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:um, saying like, let let your freak
flag fly and all those kind of things.
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:We, we should, you know, I, I do
agree with and whatever the weird
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:aspects are about you, that they're
part of you and we should own them
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:and not try to just fit in with what
pe we think people want us to be.
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:'cause that's where you truly
find your tribe and your following
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:and your charisma as well.
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:Because I think without, without
those authentic elements, you
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:don't really have charisma.
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:You just kind of have a, a, a
sort of beige personality that
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:is not one thing or another.
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:Uh, so, so I think that these elements
are absolutely essential that we should,
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:um, to some degree flaunt the stuff
that is maybe a little strange about
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:us or different, that it, it does help
us to really find a tribe rather than
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:just people thinking, oh, that's nice.
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:They're nice.
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:Yeah.
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:Susan Ibitz: Do you agree that
you need to have the acolytes.
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:So if you says you're an expert in
this show that you are an expert and
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:that you have the luxury to be weird.
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:I want people who wanna pitch
in Shark Tanks or any of the
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:shows says, how are doing?
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:Like, you look lovely when your steep
job, but so far you are present.
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:It doesn't tell me you
have your things together.
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:You can assess.
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:I don't know.
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:I'm gonna ask my accountant.
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:You fighting for your life, so you need
to be warm, you need to be assertive.
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:You can play crazy when you have
ent, but if you're playing crazy
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:for being crazy, you are Ted Bundy.
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:By the way.
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:It was a genius.
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:All these lunatics were genius.
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:Yeah.
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:So you need to have something,
you need to be good in something
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:to be, have the luxury to be
crazy or luxury to be yourself.
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:You need to have a base.
401
:You need to have acolytes, you need
to have a certain pegram, what you do.
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:So I'm good in accounting.
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:No, I cannot make a check.
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:My left depend on it.
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:I'm, the bank already knows me, says
Susan is 600 year old or the 900 year
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:old, and I'm like, they already know me.
407
:They call me and I correct the
check and they released the check.
408
:I know that.
409
:So like Bronson and many
people is dyslexic, says.
410
:I decide to be the best in my business and
hire somebody writing the emails for me.
411
:But I'm good in what I do and nobody can
touch my rear end and what I do because
412
:I 53 and I embark in another master in
October and actually was approved too,
413
:neuromarketing and Neuroscience and
London in person, then I cannot travel
414
:and another one in Barcelona online.
415
:I gonna do the Barcelona online.
416
:Are you gonna stop?
417
:No.
418
:Why?
419
:Because you can say a lot of things
about me, but you never gonna say then
420
:I don't have my things together that
gimme the luxury to be who I wanna be.
421
:Now, in order to be that, you
need to be something good that
422
:people can respect your work.
423
:When people say, oh, man, neuro sign
and study with this and this, like,
424
:uh, how, what make you neuroscience?
425
:Well, I read this book and listen
to like, okay, I'm sorry, I,
426
:I'm sorry for not being sorry.
427
:But you are not.
428
:I studied with Paul Ekman,
where I took an along classes.
429
:He was given the class.
430
:No, somebody else.
431
:Well, let me tell you.
432
:I moved my body to Manchester
for a year study with him, Robert
433
:Cialdini, and I moved to Arizona
for two weeks to study with him.
434
:So let's reframe who you're talking to.
435
:I make the effort to do it.
436
:I make sure that I'm the only
one in that field because I
437
:wanna be the person in my field.
438
:The only place in my
life I'm cocky is my job.
439
:Why?
440
:Because I know what I bring to the
table that allow me to be crazy,
441
:and my clients allow me to be crazy
because they know I'm deliver.
442
:No,
443
:John: this is your ethos,
your credibility, right?
444
:So you ab absolutely have to have that.
445
:Um, we talked previously a little
bit about, um, there's another pretty
446
:well known hostage negotiator with a
pretty well known book, Chris Voss.
447
:Uh, and we talked about him and I know
there were some points of difference.
448
:Uh, I know you know Chris as well.
449
:There are some points of difference
between what he teaches and maybe what
450
:you think about, um, some of the things
about Split never split the difference,
451
:and, uh, things that he teaches.
452
:Can, can we get, get a little bit
about understanding about what
453
:some, maybe some of the points of
difference that you have there?
454
:Susan Ibitz: He had work on the FBI
as an international host negotiator.
455
:Nobody gonna take that from Chris.
456
:Actually, his first host
negotiation was in a bank.
457
:I think it was the only few, few
hostage negotiator you're gonna find
458
:out that have a real like I'm gonna
see your face hostage negotiation.
459
:He is brilliant in what he does,
but I don't think that he translate
460
:to the civilians the understanding.
461
:I think his book is perfect.
462
:I think he brought his book by
the ghost writer that never eat
463
:alone or something like that.
464
:Genius writer.
465
:It's great marketing, but I don't think
it's a realistic understanding how life,
466
:work and a host, it's easy, a hostage
negotiation than a real life negotiation
467
:and actually all the hostage negotiator.
468
:I know I asked the same question.
469
:You wanna deal with your wife,
your kid, a hosted taker.
470
:I prefer an Al-Qaeda
terrorist than my kids.
471
:Because he have two options.
472
:My kids, they can't play
me the way they I want.
473
:I talk to FBI Moat, CIA, I know that
it's not gonna work with them, but
474
:I have a chance to meet with them in
conference when I gonna either speak
475
:was a, was a guest and it's different.
476
:So when he says never split,
the difference is the concept
477
:of negotiation is split the
different, I'll give you something.
478
:It's completely transactional.
479
:So when you says never split the
different, we lead in thinking that.
480
:We gonna have the talking guy
like it's my way or the highway.
481
:Honey, let me tell you, short shoulder
truck, it doesn't tell me you're lying.
482
:Uh, taking everything and not give
you not anything in exchange is
483
:not gonna be a good negotiation.
484
:When you're selling a house as a
realtor, you need to give the person
485
:what asking if it's not called fraud,
it's called you are not realistic.
486
:You ruin your reputation.
487
:So my concerns with that is
not talking about his persona,
488
:then I respect his persona.
489
:I'm talking about the persona marketing
that is building the theory of the book.
490
:And for some people it's like the bible.
491
:He's a genius marketer.
492
:He have that great.
493
:But in the theory
practice, I do not agree.
494
:You need to negotiate transactional.
495
:I give you a good show.
496
:You give me the, the, the, you
give me the space to do it.
497
:The audience, I hope they have
takeaways they can take with them.
498
:It's okay.
499
:We meet on the middle.
500
:We always split the difference.
501
:And because I've been talking
openly, an editorial comes and
502
:says, can we split the cheese?
503
:Like, nope, I will not gonna
get in somebody else business.
504
:As Chris was business.
505
:I respect him, uh, do his job.
506
:I will not gonna fight with it.
507
:I don't need, I don't
have the need to do it.
508
:I, when I have the, the chance to do
it and says, guys, if you have a cells.
509
:You have a client that coming from a car
and you wanna sell sport and he need a
510
:minivan, you need to meet on the middle.
511
:You need to give them maybe
an SUV, not a minivan.
512
:You sell what you need, the person have,
but you are not gonna sell the the,
513
:the sport car when he have four kids.
514
:Now you have a recently
divorce dude than the fifties.
515
:Give me the most expensive car.
516
:I'm gonna sell that car.
517
:Now we're talking, you
have your ego fed up.
518
:I sell my car.
519
:That is a different scenario.
520
:But it still meet you in the middle.
521
:Always, always a negotiation is not,
I hate when people come and says,
522
:oh, we spend $50,000 on, um, on
these, uh, uh, uh, sketches or, or,
523
:and these, um, screenplays to sell.
524
:We need to do this and we, we need
to go with this, with this brief.
525
:That's what we need to sell.
526
:Like, no, you don't need a script.
527
:You need a manual.
528
:You need to have a company manual
where you give people options to
529
:negotiate if you're forced and
says, Hey John, how you doing?
530
:Well, you know, my cat died.
531
:Oh, that is fixable.
532
:Lemme tell you, I have
the best cell phone.
533
:When you can keep the picture,
like, no, that person need empathy.
534
:Go with him.
535
:I have, I have gone in company sales
to any calls, only for the fact that
536
:I'm gonna hear what they say and
says, okay dude, if you don't drop
537
:the script, I'm gonna drop the call.
538
:So you cannot go with the script.
539
:You need to move with the flow.
540
:Not always the client is, is
true, is right, but what is right
541
:is what you need to understand.
542
:People want to be seen
here and understood.
543
:If I take everything from the table,
you live with a new cell phone, but you
544
:live thinking that I never heard you.
545
:I never see you, and I
never understood you.
546
:Make sense?
547
:John: Yeah.
548
:Yeah, absolutely.
549
:And, and as those connection elements,
again, you, um, one of your special or
550
:specialized areas, I should say, really
is irrational people, irrational humans.
551
:And it, I wonder what, what drew
you into that particular area?
552
:Really, you wanna go there and what, what
value does that kind of study have for
553
:the rest of us, for life in general that
we might be, might, might be applicable?
554
:Susan Ibitz: I'm gonna, okay.
555
:I need to rearrange my
tail, my chair for that.
556
:It's gonna be fine.
557
:I was married for 10 years with a
borderline narcissist person and I
558
:realized like, what the heck I, why
I ended up married with that person
559
:because he was the most fucked up fix.
560
:I never need to do my life
when I, when he was diagnosed,
561
:know about TikTok 15 years ago.
562
:By a former FBI profiler psychologist,
no fun for 11 months, the first thing,
563
:and I asked for, the therapist says,
why I'm here, what is wrong with me?
564
:And second of all, how long I
have, I'm gonna start having fun.
565
:To the point I want, saying the
time the the says, okay, you're
566
:having too much fun with this dude.
567
:You need to file for divorce, why
you wanna intervene with the court?
568
:So I understand that no matter how
rational I am at work, I'm human.
569
:I have my biases.
570
:And then I ended up six cats,
more than 800 pair of shoes.
571
:Why?
572
:And they understand and discover
behavioral economics that the
573
:traditional way we think about people
is irrational and it's not true.
574
:And I understand how advertisement work.
575
:I did my, my last thesis is how, if
I, if I, supposedly this is a glass
576
:of wine and I have French on the
background, and this wine is French.
577
:I probably gonna buy more French
wine up to 330 times more.
578
:Now this is French wine
and I have German music.
579
:I'm gonna have a decent in
my brand to make it simple.
580
:You have Homer Simpson,
95% of your decisions.
581
:You have Albert Einstein.
582
:5% of your decision What?
583
:You put Albert Einstein
to change the light bulb?
584
:No.
585
:You need Homer Simpson.
586
:I wake up.
587
:Feed my card, do my
breakfast, check my emails.
588
:I don't need to overthink that.
589
:It's automatically I need that.
590
:The problem is when you're gonna
buy a house and you take home, or
591
:to give you advice, so we do as
humans, 35,000 decisions a day.
592
:95% of them are irrational from, I gonna
use red lipstick or brown lipstick.
593
:What are I gonna be wearing?
594
:It's so those are decisions.
595
:What you gonna have for once.
596
:Are what you gonna, t-shirt
you're gonna be wearing?
597
:What is the background?
598
:So you start taking, there
are 35,000 decisions.
599
:I'm gonna wake up, I gonna snooze
the alarm more times than one.
600
:Or I gonna put the, so
those are decisions.
601
:So I'm fascinated.
602
:The prisons, they take
us to avoid the warning.
603
:Avoid your guts.
604
:This is red flag.
605
:When we dating.
606
:It's a red flag.
607
:I should be buying this car.
608
:Why is spending more money
than I should in choose?
609
:Why is spending more money,
why I hired that person?
610
:Why I'm dating that person?
611
:Those are decisions that when you
stop fighting with the fact that
612
:you need to understand and you
understand, you're irrational, you
613
:have control, knowledge is power.
614
:So when I understand how irrational it
can be and this my client and the person
615
:in front of me is as irrational as I am.
616
:So the bad news, you are the good news.
617
:Everybody else are is.
618
:So if you find out that and you
take control, knowing that, imagine
619
:that you can do with your life.
620
:That's the reason people is president,
people are CEOs and you are not.
621
:John: See seems fair enough.
622
:So, so to, to some degree then the,
the difference between the sort of
623
:rational and irrational there is,
um, what's of consequence and, and
624
:what really is more inconsequential.
625
:Is that right?
626
:Susan Ibitz: Okay.
627
:If you are gonna talk about consequences,
because sometimes people confuse that
628
:because you're rational, you don't.
629
:95% irrational and a stair that is
not safe completely in a FlipFlop.
630
:Now the consequence of that is that
when you feel that you're feel falling,
631
:you grab something as secure, so
you have a stair that is bubbly and
632
:instead to use flip flop, you choose
the consequences of the outcome.
633
:You're on the right shoes and
wearing a gear that protect you.
634
:To me, it will be nuts to clean windows,
but those guys have all their arm nest.
635
:To be safe, to me is the
most irrational fear height.
636
:So no matter how much you
pay me in my life, depend on
637
:it, I'll not gonna be there.
638
:But they understand the consequences
and not to take the measurement and
639
:maybe it's irrational and irresponsible
to jump undo that window because
640
:they can leave a widow with kids.
641
:But the rational part is how much
you measure the risk of those
642
:consequences, but you don't know
the measurement of the risk.
643
:You don't know how to prevent the risk.
644
:If I'm not aware that 95% of my decisions
are being irrational, again, we coming
645
:back, knowledge is, if I don't know, then
I basically, I'm preparing a tech talk
646
:and says, uh, I why you're so stupid.
647
:Including me and people love it and
says, what do you wanna do with that?
648
:No idea.
649
:I have the title so don't take it.
650
:It's already printed.
651
:So he says, because I know.
652
:So I start with all the
rational things that we do.
653
:The people I married, they
call the the hair choices.
654
:Okay, John, you're younger than me.
655
:Pick a picture.
656
:When you was in the se, in the
late tens and the twenties and
657
:thirties, her do clothes inside.
658
:And you says, what the heck?
659
:I was thinking I did a perm
during the pandemic because
660
:I couldn't find any, a perm.
661
:What about in the seventies?
662
:And I look at those pictures
like, what the heck?
663
:I was thinking four years ago.
664
:I work in fashion for many years
as a behavioral unit analysis.
665
:What the heck I was thinking I
was, I, I did what I can with
666
:what I had on that moment.
667
:Living in the middle of nowhere, in a town
where nobody understand what is a stylist.
668
:They cut the cow hair and your
hair, that's where I live.
669
:So apparent was the most
decent way to fix the problem.
670
:I did what I can with what I have.
671
:So that has been irrational.
672
:Yeah, I knew my, my consequences, pros
and cons was even shaving my head again,
673
:probably gonna make a hole in weeks
wearing available at that point, or have
674
:a per by the person who cut hair on a cow.
675
:Not, doesn't mean there was
the right decision to make.
676
:That was the only one I have.
677
:John: Yeah, right.
678
:How pretty were the cows are now?
679
:I'd wanna know.
680
:I'd wanna know.
681
:So, um, I, I guess a lot of people would
think that getting up onto a stage is
682
:pretty irrational to get up and speak
in front bunch of people that there's
683
:millions of people who wouldn't entertain
the idea, who are incredibly afraid of it.
684
:But sometimes it is doing these
irrational things that get
685
:us to good results as well.
686
:Yeah.
687
:Or would you say that's more rational?
688
:Susan Ibitz: Because it's n
when people says, what happened?
689
:Alex NI put this new last week.
690
:'cause people, I said, N what
you want me to do with that?
691
:Check?
692
:Check the design.
693
:So the first time that I need to do a
webinar that is a certain way to speaking,
694
:I throw up before, during, and after.
695
:I have enough slice in a pocket.
696
:So I.
697
:Wait a minute, you prepare
president like again.
698
:Nobody should the vice president.
699
:It's different.
700
:And I says to the people who go to Shark
Tech talk QVC and public speaking and
701
:talking in front of the media or talking
to the team, it says, the day you lose
702
:the butterflies on the stomach is the
day that I will say kill yourself.
703
:Because not f literally
because you lost that.
704
:And another thing people confused
when we talk is, and he says
705
:like, oh my God, it's aha moment.
706
:Introverts are painful to talk in
conference, but introverts shine
707
:in an audience for 3000 people.
708
:They're trained.
709
:He says, why?
710
:Because introverts are introspective
and extroverts love feedback.
711
:So people is claiming and clapping.
712
:You love it.
713
:The first, the best.
714
:Comedians like small crowds, and
they're extremely introverts and
715
:shy because you have a crowd, crowd
work, what is called crowd work.
716
:The people threw things to
you that really good on front.
717
:So look what, um, uh, prompt
comedy is when people says, okay,
718
:threw me a topic, um, trees.
719
:Okay, let's me, let me tell you.
720
:You look at the leaf or you look the
tree and you start building a story.
721
:Oh my God, that was a lot.
722
:I start building a story
based on the tree, the leaf.
723
:So you're introspecting helping
you to get to the point.
724
:Introverts suffer and hate public
speaking because the crowds is mixed.
725
:You don't have introspecting, you
don't know who's on the crowd, and
726
:you start getting your head going,
and introvert doesn't like it.
727
:Introverts like training, coaching,
and one-on-one relationship.
728
:Extroverts love the crowd, love
talking, and because whatever
729
:you bring them to them, they shy.
730
:So if you're an introvert,
do not think that's painful.
731
:Physically painful for you
to talk in front of people.
732
:Is that your.
733
:The way you recharge energy, the why
that you are getting more social.
734
:The way you have your energy is
completely different, but you need to
735
:understand how painful it is so you
can do public speaking when you're
736
:coaching and a small crowd where the
people is selected to your turf, no,
737
:your turf is selected to attract people.
738
:Because sometimes my people
says, oh, we're gonna put this
739
:title like, but it's not true.
740
:But you're gonna bring audience.
741
:No, no, no, no.
742
:I will not gonna adapt my, I will
not gonna adapt myself to rhetoric.
743
:You need to adapt the rhetoric to
myself, and you get to a point in
744
:your career where you can do that.
745
:In the beginning, you can't,
but as soon as you can.
746
:And if you tailor your crowd in the
beginning, it's gonna be extremely
747
:helpful because that's gonna help
it to get to the point you want
748
:and get the GR dry crowd since the.
749
:John: Interestingly, though I'd say most
of the professional speakers or public
750
:speakers I know are more naturally
introverted than, than extroverted.
751
:So, so even though it's harder and
I, I would generally class myself as
752
:being naturally introverted, although,
you know, I, I certainly push.
753
:Push through that to a great degree.
754
:Um, but it's interesting to me at least
that so many introverts do go to it.
755
:But I do feel like a part of the reason
for that, certainly for myself and for
756
:many of the people I've worked with, has
been to do with, um, the, the personal
757
:growth that happens when you challenge
yourself in these ways that maybe do seem
758
:irrational and put you into situations
that are incredibly uncomfortable.
759
:Susan Ibitz: You know what?
760
:Jerry Sinfield, Oprah Winfrey, lady Gaga,
all these great performance are introverts
761
:and people says it's incoherent.
762
:Like no.
763
:When you talk about what you know,
nobody can touch your rear end.
764
:Let's put it that way.
765
:And if you see the
routines, I have seen this.
766
:I have a lot of friends
that are stage manager.
767
:I don't know how I ended
up with, I love it.
768
:Even I have clients, they have.
769
:Andrea Belli, they do in the colo in Rome.
770
:So I have trouble to see those concerts
and that people says two hours before
771
:the show, no matter if the, uh, if the
theater is burning, you don't bother them.
772
:And after the show they don't wanna
talk to anyone and they're so when
773
:what happened with Ellen Degeneres
or Oprah and says, I don't know how
774
:much that person, and I don't wanna
sit on the politics of that, I don't
775
:know how much that person is cranky.
776
:It's highly introvert that never
was introduced properly to the team.
777
:And explain what an introversion
happened because if you gonna talk
778
:to me before I go to a crowd or after
a crowd, I'm gonna chop your head.
779
:So if you see me in that context
outside of the stage, you're gonna
780
:think of an I'm a bad person.
781
:Oh, I'm cranky and I don't like people.
782
:I kind of don't like people.
783
:But anyway, another, another topic
or another podcast is that my
784
:introversion asked me to, Susan, you
need to get your energy ready for
785
:when you are in front of the people.
786
:You give everything you have,
so you need to work it up.
787
:Oh my God, again, a lot.
788
:I couldn't close the
dogs, the, the, the cat.
789
:So people is my fault.
790
:I have six cats and I shouldn't close,
and I left the door open and I cannot cut.
791
:John: I'll do my very best to minimize
the interruptions from the cats.
792
:Don't worry.
793
:Susan Ibitz: But they're cute.
794
:I can
795
:John: That's that's the different podcast.
796
:Yeah.
797
:But,
798
:Susan Ibitz: but people is introvert.
799
:You're introvert, but you
help other people to talk.
800
:Do you need to be the best speaker?
801
:No, I know I need to know your pain.
802
:I says, what make me good at what I do is
I get, you have one of them that's not,
803
:so what I need to understand is your pain.
804
:I need to understand how
difficult it is so I can work
805
:with you and give you things.
806
:For example, let's talk about
pets in the morning when I
807
:need to do a lot of exposure.
808
:I take 15 to 20 minutes to play with them
that get my dopamine, get my oxytocin.
809
:No matter how dark is
the day when I see pets.
810
:Because I'm a rescuer and because of my
Asperger, I have that relationship with
811
:pets, the animals, the people, because
they give you love unconditionally.
812
:I love the working all over.
813
:So if you watch in your,
in your cell phone.
814
:Five minutes of videos for pets, your
dopamine and oxytocin is gonna be high.
815
:So look for your happy place
when you need to go there.
816
:And it's about finding your happy
place and happy places can come
817
:back from many, many, many places.
818
:Sometime you put a picture of those
shoes that you're gonna buy and you
819
:cannot afford and says, okay, if I
put up with this, I can buy the shoes.
820
:Perfect.
821
:Let's do that.
822
:John: Yeah, it certainly
explains why so many people
823
:are watching cat videos online.
824
:And, uh, number one research.
825
:Susan Ibitz: Do you know what is
the number one of body language?
826
:Google body language of cats,
second body language of dogs,
827
:and then body language of kids.
828
:By 2030, we're gonna have
more pets per capita.
829
:Thank you guys.
830
:Uh, more pets per capita than kids.
831
:We do more adult Pampers than kid Pampers.
832
:I'm a data person, so yeah,
I'm just an average American.
833
:John: I cer certainly looking
at dog videos is my thing.
834
:I I, I do, I do.
835
:I love that.
836
:And I do get those feelings from watching
those kinds of, especially the sort of
837
:rescue videos and stuff, um, that, uh, I
haven't yet managed to convince my husband
838
:to buy to that we should get a dog.
839
:I'm, we're still working on that one.
840
:Susan Ibitz: That's the reason I'm single,
so I don't need to ask for permission.
841
:I shoulda
842
:John: have got the dog when I was
single that would've sold him.
843
:But
844
:Susan Ibitz: actually, you know what
most people and take has to do with
845
:behavior and try to please everyone.
846
:And I think it's important when
you need to define your avatar.
847
:I wanna start working with someone
says, okay, who is your avatar?
848
:Your what?
849
:Who, when, why?
850
:Where?
851
:When I decide to move
from the big city to.
852
:Having a weekend house and
during the pandemic making my,
853
:my home and I, by mistake and
failure, I ended up with six cats.
854
:People says you should have a partner.
855
:And doing what?
856
:Like why?
857
:If I do those things, if I move to
the forest and commute between the
858
:cities, if I have six cats, the person
I'm gonna find is narrow to the niche.
859
:We are gonna think alike.
860
:We are gonna be thinking
about the same needs.
861
:I narrow my field, I make it
simple to relate with someone.
862
:And I told him, I met a guy that is
allergic and says, okay, I'm gonna go
863
:to all allergies and he have three dogs.
864
:I have six cats.
865
:It's gonna be a So, but guess what?
866
:He understand because
he doesn't have pets.
867
:He have rescue, rescue stories.
868
:So I gonna match with somebody who.
869
:Too late.
870
:You're married, you have the
ring, so you need to negotiate.
871
:I can, we can talk about
negotiation later, but cool.
872
:People wait for what if, when I,
and guess what people get, how many
873
:story we hear or retire and die two
weeks later, uh, is gonna travel when
874
:retire and have a hip replacement.
875
:Cannot be sitting on the
plane for three hours.
876
:I don't wait anymore.
877
:John: I, I can't, I can't follow my,
my brother's strategy with getting a
878
:dog was just to go out and get one.
879
:And his wife, his wife was
not, was not happy about it.
880
:Okay?
881
:First, but tolerated it.
882
:Susan Ibitz: Look okay.
883
:Go on a park and see what dog he liked.
884
:He want a puppy.
885
:He want a story.
886
:He wanna be the hero of the story.
887
:Rescue and a puppy.
888
:Bring a female friend.
889
:That he's gonna be nurturing
to playing his ego and says,
890
:okay, I wanna rescue a puppy.
891
:Bring it and you can cut this part.
892
:Or make it not to hear this podcast,
take it to a rescue place and
893
:says, oh my God, let somebody tell
this story if he's a story eater.
894
:So tell the story.
895
:What you doing with who you saving?
896
:That's how they sell me there.
897
:Cats that I was fostering because
they knew that nobody want them and
898
:I'm the only one able to fix them.
899
:Yeah.
900
:They fix me six cats.
901
:John: Yeah.
902
:I, I think that's, that's a really
interesting, because I've, I've often
903
:thought that probably the only thing
that would make that work was that
904
:if it was a rescue situation, like
we would, like neither of us want
905
:kids, but if it was a rescue kind of
operation, we would, uh, same with dog
906
:or same with a cat, or pretty much any.
907
:Being in need though with
that, that would work.
908
:Susan Ibitz: First, you need to understand
why not When it says, when you have the
909
:no, actually you have place to negotiate.
910
:If I says yes and says, okay, yes.
911
:What yes to what?
912
:To have a dog to have a rescue.
913
:When it says no and says, okay, why?
914
:No.
915
:It says when you mean like,
okay, I wanna know why.
916
:Because she says No, doesn't mean
that I'm gonna take it because I wanna
917
:dog and I wanna meet in the middle.
918
:You understand?
919
:Don't take it all you give them.
920
:The power says, okay, it's not so I
take, no, you have the right on this
921
:transactional conversation to know why.
922
:I says, well, I'm afraid nobody's gonna
take them and we cannot go on vacation.
923
:Now we know why.
924
:It's not that he doesn't wanna have a dog.
925
:It is that he's afraid that it's
gonna affect when I decide not to
926
:have kids, it was, I'm not gonna
be good in everything that I do.
927
:I didn't have the best childhood and
I don't wanna repeat the pattern.
928
:I don't think I'm gonna be a good mother,
so I'm saving another kids from therapy.
929
:I did it from the future kids.
930
:And by the way, I didn't wanna give my
mother the chance to say, I told you so.
931
:It's gonna be like you.
932
:I was afraid terrorize
is gonna be like me.
933
:But I was conscious decision.
934
:And when I got married and says, I'm
not gonna have kids, he ended up,
935
:he wanna have kids, good for you.
936
:But I make a conscious decision.
937
:So when I met someone, I was single
and says, I don't wanna have kids.
938
:A, I wasn't the best child.
939
:Second, I didn't have the best childhood.
940
:Some people says, well, you can fix that.
941
:That's what my brother did.
942
:Good for him.
943
:I will not gonna do it.
944
:So, no, it's a chance to know
why and open a conversation.
945
:So never talk and take a no.
946
:Then Chris talk about the same.
947
:And I agree with that.
948
:With Chris, no is a chance to
know why when you have, yes, you
949
:don't have too much to negotiate.
950
:But if I say no, actually you can.
951
:Makes the the conversation to
Yes, because this is, okay.
952
:Mr.
953
:Bloomington on the corner,
she loves to take dogs.
954
:Okay?
955
:Instead to have a big one, we can have
a small one still four legs, one tail.
956
:Love you says.
957
:What about cats?
958
:They're more independent.
959
:I used to have a dog and
I get too attached to him.
960
:I says, cats, I can leave them
for four days when I'm going to
961
:the city and they're independent.
962
:Maybe it's a little more fairy,
says meow instead of wealth.
963
:And maybe he doesn't
want the responsibility.
964
:Choose your battles.
965
:And no is a really good opportunity.
966
:When the audience says
no, says, guys, you agree?
967
:No.
968
:Tell me why.
969
:And tell me what is your experience?
970
:And now you have a debate where
your audience is always about
971
:playing this strength because your
strengths coming from the same
972
:place that come in your weakness.
973
:So,
974
:John: so just exercising your
curiosity there is what's gonna
975
:take it to a deeper conversation.
976
:What about, though, in more maybe
business, business negotiations,
977
:like conversations with Bookers, for
example, people who may be you, may
978
:be speaking to, to get an event or
maybe to, uh, work, work with a client.
979
:Is, is it the same principle?
980
:Susan Ibitz: Uh, I would says you
need to know what you are able
981
:to leave on the table if you're
negotiating for somebody else.
982
:First, uh, John says, this is me.
983
:Take it or leave it.
984
:Like, eh, no, that's only for the movies.
985
:Uh, I had did a lot of negotiation
with the union and I don't know how in
986
:England and Europe is negotiation with
the union, but here is kind of harsh.
987
:The union is, to be clear, Kennedy
the father, when Kennedy wanted to be
988
:president, negotiate with two people,
the mafia in Vegas and the union.
989
:That's how strong they used to be.
990
:Not the same way Now.
991
:But when I need to negotiate with them,
says, okay guys, you need to look good.
992
:I need to look good.
993
:I'm gonna tell you what
I'm allowed to tell you.
994
:So this is my list with what?
995
:Here in this envelope, I
know what is my final number.
996
:I can wanna start a
hundred and give you a 10.
997
:You need to do the same.
998
:We can have coffee, laugh about it, and
people think that we're yelling to each
999
:other so I know what I'm gonna take on
the table, or it's not on the table.
:
00:49:44,111 --> 00:49:46,151
Have a bad deal is better
not to having a deal.
:
00:49:46,211 --> 00:49:46,541
Why?
:
00:49:46,601 --> 00:49:47,531
Because we walk away.
:
00:49:47,861 --> 00:49:51,491
So you start talking about
rationalizing the negotiation
:
00:49:51,581 --> 00:49:52,481
and let's meet in the middle.
:
00:49:53,351 --> 00:49:55,121
You need to leave this
room with something.
:
00:49:55,271 --> 00:49:56,501
I need to live on the room.
:
00:49:56,561 --> 00:49:59,681
Now how the journey is gonna
have with the negotiation.
:
00:49:59,831 --> 00:50:01,451
You play it the way you want it.
:
00:50:01,841 --> 00:50:05,226
You wanna be right or you wanna win win.
:
00:50:05,231 --> 00:50:10,961
The biggest problem with negotiation is
you are gonna be the ego driven person.
:
00:50:11,831 --> 00:50:12,161
No.
:
00:50:12,761 --> 00:50:15,521
I was telling you about the, let's
put it in something that everybody
:
00:50:15,521 --> 00:50:18,731
can relate, even marry people,
because in some point you were single.
:
00:50:19,781 --> 00:50:23,591
This guy that I met, so I made in
an app and it's the first because
:
00:50:23,591 --> 00:50:24,821
I have a picture of my cat.
:
00:50:25,211 --> 00:50:26,561
So you know what you're dealing with.
:
00:50:26,921 --> 00:50:30,281
The first thing I says, do you
think you're you, do you think your
:
00:50:30,281 --> 00:50:32,381
sexiness is gonna cure my allergies?
:
00:50:32,411 --> 00:50:33,971
And says, dude, it's not gonna happen.
:
00:50:34,901 --> 00:50:35,951
It's not gonna happen.
:
00:50:35,951 --> 00:50:40,181
Even if I'm 20 years old and say, and
I says, how bad is your allergies?
:
00:50:40,586 --> 00:50:43,046
And says, well that
bad that I can kill me.
:
00:50:43,046 --> 00:50:47,006
He says, you know what, I will
die to know you, but I know health
:
00:50:47,006 --> 00:50:49,916
issues at this age are complicated.
:
00:50:49,916 --> 00:50:51,356
I will not gonna play with the game.
:
00:50:51,716 --> 00:50:56,426
Or you met me, you're gonna negotiate
and I'm gonna end up 9 1 1 calling 9
:
00:50:56,426 --> 00:50:59,576
1 1 2 o'clock in the morning killing
you before I have a ring on it.
:
00:50:59,876 --> 00:51:00,806
It's not gonna happen.
:
00:51:01,346 --> 00:51:03,176
And he says, for the what?
:
00:51:03,326 --> 00:51:03,836
For what?
:
00:51:03,836 --> 00:51:06,776
You says, I think I'm
gonna be missing someone.
:
00:51:06,776 --> 00:51:07,016
Amazing.
:
00:51:07,796 --> 00:51:09,806
I says, you like trouble,
like love trouble.
:
00:51:10,046 --> 00:51:12,716
He says, what happen if you
like me and with my cats?
:
00:51:12,836 --> 00:51:18,686
Well, I already texting allergists doctors
to go over and see, and he says, huh.
:
00:51:20,666 --> 00:51:25,256
So again, I was negotiating, talking
about, okay, he says, probably
:
00:51:25,256 --> 00:51:26,486
I'm not gonna go to your house.
:
00:51:26,756 --> 00:51:28,976
I'm gonna be introduced slowly to them.
:
00:51:29,246 --> 00:51:31,916
I'm gonna see if you have
hair on your, on your skin.
:
00:51:32,276 --> 00:51:34,556
Let's negotiate because I have three dogs.
:
00:51:34,556 --> 00:51:35,816
They're over 90 pounds.
:
00:51:36,461 --> 00:51:39,491
So well between year six,
so we start negotiating.
:
00:51:39,491 --> 00:51:43,301
We don't know each other yet,
but we were willing to understand
:
00:51:43,301 --> 00:51:46,151
that the end goal is over 50.
:
00:51:46,391 --> 00:51:50,531
Finding a partner is more difficult
than when you're twenties, and
:
00:51:50,531 --> 00:51:52,691
we understand the consequences.
:
00:51:53,021 --> 00:51:56,996
But if you have a young negotiator
with someone who is older, you have
:
00:51:56,996 --> 00:52:01,271
a person who come from a negotiating
part that doesn't understand the topic.
:
00:52:01,721 --> 00:52:03,161
Now your negotiation is fluk.
:
00:52:05,291 --> 00:52:09,341
So you need to have defined
and desire and clear what is
:
00:52:09,341 --> 00:52:11,141
the outcome you're negotiating.
:
00:52:11,591 --> 00:52:13,241
I'm negotiating to be happy.
:
00:52:13,931 --> 00:52:15,131
Can I give away the cat?
:
00:52:15,281 --> 00:52:15,761
No.
:
00:52:15,971 --> 00:52:17,891
They're all under a year and a half.
:
00:52:17,891 --> 00:52:19,811
So they're gonna be with me for 16 years.
:
00:52:20,711 --> 00:52:25,781
They have a five year lab and two
one year Labrador, another 16 years.
:
00:52:25,931 --> 00:52:27,071
We're stuck on the same.
:
00:52:27,401 --> 00:52:31,601
We lower our pets and it's non-negotiable
because when your kids are old.
:
00:52:32,021 --> 00:52:34,091
You don't have kids, it's non-negotiable.
:
00:52:34,091 --> 00:52:35,351
Pets become your family.
:
00:52:35,831 --> 00:52:38,471
So we know that, how are
we gonna make it work?
:
00:52:38,831 --> 00:52:41,501
I need to make my bed higher
and he get injections.
:
00:52:42,131 --> 00:52:43,211
That's a negotiation.
:
00:52:43,391 --> 00:52:46,901
And I put it in a context that everybody
can understand what is negotiating.
:
00:52:47,801 --> 00:52:48,041
John: Yeah.
:
00:52:48,166 --> 00:52:51,431
It, it makes me think of
that story, principle of the
:
00:52:51,431 --> 00:52:53,171
obstacle is the way mm-hmm.
:
00:52:53,411 --> 00:52:57,071
That, um, generally in life,
if something is too easy.
:
00:52:57,836 --> 00:52:59,396
We often don't want it.
:
00:52:59,396 --> 00:53:01,466
Like if it's easy to
have, we don't want it.
:
00:53:01,466 --> 00:53:05,186
But when there's challenge there, uh,
that becomes the way to growth and
:
00:53:05,186 --> 00:53:06,956
development and interesting things.
:
00:53:06,956 --> 00:53:09,176
Like we, like we need challenge.
:
00:53:09,176 --> 00:53:10,676
We don't grow without challenge.
:
00:53:10,676 --> 00:53:11,846
We don't develop without it.
:
00:53:11,846 --> 00:53:15,956
And, and, and it's, it's kind
of about having the right kinds
:
00:53:15,956 --> 00:53:19,406
of challenges in the right kinds
of situations that create those
:
00:53:19,406 --> 00:53:22,556
opportunities for, for development for.
:
00:53:22,636 --> 00:53:26,716
Something to move or change or to,
for a conversation to go deeper.
:
00:53:26,716 --> 00:53:31,126
I find it fascinating from, uh, from
that perspective that we, uh, we
:
00:53:31,126 --> 00:53:34,816
often think we wish our lives were
easier, but if we actually really
:
00:53:34,816 --> 00:53:36,316
think about it, we probably don't.
:
00:53:36,376 --> 00:53:38,386
If life was too easy, it
would be boring, right?
:
00:53:38,866 --> 00:53:42,136
Susan Ibitz: Uh, your restraints
are your, uh, weakness and
:
00:53:43,311 --> 00:53:44,911
I guess who made it to this?
:
00:53:45,731 --> 00:53:47,531
Hi, this is Malt, by the way.
:
00:53:47,531 --> 00:53:48,941
You know when I know the name of my cat?
:
00:53:49,121 --> 00:53:50,171
Scotch Whiskey.
:
00:53:50,471 --> 00:53:51,551
Bourbon Malt.
:
00:53:51,701 --> 00:53:52,691
Tequila and Vodka.
:
00:53:52,991 --> 00:53:53,651
I don't have cats.
:
00:53:53,951 --> 00:53:54,386
I have a, alright, a
:
00:53:54,391 --> 00:53:54,431
John: theme.
:
00:53:54,941 --> 00:53:55,781
I'm spotting a theme.
:
00:53:56,261 --> 00:53:56,531
Susan Ibitz: Yeah.
:
00:53:57,221 --> 00:54:01,661
So your restraints are the same
coming from your, uh, weakness.
:
00:54:02,441 --> 00:54:06,071
So I don't have witness for
people, I have witness for pets.
:
00:54:06,191 --> 00:54:06,761
I know that.
:
00:54:06,971 --> 00:54:10,691
So I, it's gonna be
difficult to negotiate.
:
00:54:11,201 --> 00:54:14,321
Uh, you need to understand
what are the problems.
:
00:54:14,921 --> 00:54:18,821
When you need to have a conversation or
negotiation says, what is non-negotiable?
:
00:54:19,361 --> 00:54:20,686
No, but I wanna tell you, no, no, no.
:
00:54:20,691 --> 00:54:21,731
What is non-negotiable?
:
00:54:22,451 --> 00:54:25,481
What is the things that
you cannot negotiate with?
:
00:54:26,051 --> 00:54:29,561
And I do it on dating, I do it
on business, and people think
:
00:54:29,591 --> 00:54:31,421
even then I don't have feelings.
:
00:54:31,691 --> 00:54:33,251
I do have feelings for the right things.
:
00:54:33,641 --> 00:54:36,431
When you call me, it's because you
need to fix something, because your
:
00:54:36,431 --> 00:54:38,831
emotion getting on the way to fix this.
:
00:54:39,446 --> 00:54:40,226
That is the problem.
:
00:54:40,226 --> 00:54:43,196
So you call me because I'm not
biased, because I don't care.
:
00:54:43,226 --> 00:54:44,816
I have a paycheck, I'm a mercenary.
:
00:54:45,176 --> 00:54:45,716
Guess what?
:
00:54:45,956 --> 00:54:49,016
Being a mercenary, at that point, you
need somebody who's less emotional.
:
00:54:49,016 --> 00:54:50,576
So you need to get the things done.
:
00:54:51,236 --> 00:54:53,276
So you always negotiating with something.
:
00:54:53,396 --> 00:54:55,916
You always know your obstacles first.
:
00:54:56,366 --> 00:55:00,896
If you wanna go to Europe, okay,
you have probably three options once
:
00:55:00,896 --> 00:55:03,296
you get in lot and, and get the uk.
:
00:55:03,716 --> 00:55:07,676
You can't take the underwater,
not even a ham that No, no.
:
00:55:07,676 --> 00:55:10,586
I have, I watch too many movies
in the United States where
:
00:55:10,586 --> 00:55:12,446
those, those things collapse.
:
00:55:12,806 --> 00:55:15,686
You're not gonna gimme date
there, even if you drug me.
:
00:55:16,106 --> 00:55:18,416
So I gonna take a boat, we're gonna fly.
:
00:55:19,286 --> 00:55:20,126
There are two options.
:
00:55:20,396 --> 00:55:20,726
I know.
:
00:55:20,726 --> 00:55:22,166
What are the options to negotiate?
:
00:55:22,526 --> 00:55:23,876
We're gonna see prices.
:
00:55:23,876 --> 00:55:24,926
What is the journey?
:
00:55:24,926 --> 00:55:25,796
What are we gonna do?
:
00:55:26,186 --> 00:55:27,296
So that's what happened.
:
00:55:27,296 --> 00:55:29,726
And you're in Europe,
you can take a train.
:
00:55:29,726 --> 00:55:31,106
We can rent a car.
:
00:55:31,376 --> 00:55:33,506
So, but you have options to go there.
:
00:55:33,926 --> 00:55:37,946
My obstacle is go from London
to Europe to the continent.
:
00:55:38,126 --> 00:55:40,106
When I'm there, it's no more obstacle.
:
00:55:40,226 --> 00:55:41,576
Let's see what life get us.
:
00:55:41,906 --> 00:55:46,016
When I'm going to Europe, I backpacking,
I'm going to Goodwill, and I get all these
:
00:55:46,016 --> 00:55:48,296
used jeans and t-shirts and Walmart like.
:
00:55:48,656 --> 00:55:51,686
I threw clothing with my backpack
and people are like, what?
:
00:55:52,016 --> 00:55:53,096
I'm gonna hostels.
:
00:55:53,486 --> 00:55:57,386
I love to go to uncom places
out of my comfort zone.
:
00:55:57,386 --> 00:55:58,436
People like what?
:
00:55:58,676 --> 00:55:58,946
Yeah.
:
00:55:59,306 --> 00:56:00,566
That's the reason I travel alone.
:
00:56:01,226 --> 00:56:03,086
That's the reason I have friends in China.
:
00:56:03,206 --> 00:56:08,456
So the obstacle is my obstacle
when I decide to start doing this
:
00:56:08,456 --> 00:56:10,496
journey once a year to Europe.
:
00:56:11,486 --> 00:56:14,156
To hospital, and I'm
too old for, guess what?
:
00:56:14,156 --> 00:56:14,966
I'm not the only one.
:
00:56:15,266 --> 00:56:17,246
I found people in the
sixties and seventies.
:
00:56:17,756 --> 00:56:23,756
So the obstacle was me being afraid
to be in front of people and I decide
:
00:56:23,756 --> 00:56:26,246
to carry that obstacle in a way that.
:
00:56:27,401 --> 00:56:31,091
What if the obstacle is the
best, the best thing can happen?
:
00:56:31,391 --> 00:56:35,261
What if that obstacle is gonna allow
me to have friends all over the world?
:
00:56:35,531 --> 00:56:38,801
That's how I go to, to
have wine in France.
:
00:56:39,161 --> 00:56:43,151
I'll go to Portugal, Italy, because
I have friends all around the world.
:
00:56:43,151 --> 00:56:43,451
Why?
:
00:56:43,781 --> 00:56:46,121
Because the obstacle
become my best strength.
:
00:56:46,841 --> 00:56:48,401
Being afraid to talk to strangers.
:
00:56:50,201 --> 00:56:52,361
John: Yeah, I think, um, certainly.
:
00:56:52,826 --> 00:56:56,456
It inspires me to want to do
something but not go to hostels,
:
00:56:56,856 --> 00:56:58,826
so, that's my idea of hell.
:
00:56:58,886 --> 00:56:59,306
Susan Ibitz: Okay.
:
00:56:59,876 --> 00:57:03,506
We remember the hostel movie
and I was having lunch with a
:
00:57:03,506 --> 00:57:07,586
friend that she suddenly become
widow at the age of 56 Hor.
:
00:57:08,516 --> 00:57:10,436
Um, she went home, he was dead.
:
00:57:11,186 --> 00:57:13,526
Clean bill that morning from the doctor.
:
00:57:13,526 --> 00:57:13,976
Horrible.
:
00:57:14,456 --> 00:57:15,206
And he says, Hey.
:
00:57:15,656 --> 00:57:18,686
He says, Hey, I, I open an
office in, in London now.
:
00:57:18,686 --> 00:57:20,336
It says I, I'm gonna go with you.
:
00:57:20,336 --> 00:57:24,206
Like I need to tell you I'm not gonna,
BB, like, you have an apartment.
:
00:57:24,206 --> 00:57:26,636
Like, no, I'm gonna, what the heck?
:
00:57:26,726 --> 00:57:29,876
She says, you were
married for 30, 32 years.
:
00:57:30,116 --> 00:57:31,586
Have you ever done anything crazy?
:
00:57:31,676 --> 00:57:31,946
No.
:
00:57:32,066 --> 00:57:33,206
Maybe it's the time to do it.
:
00:57:33,746 --> 00:57:38,216
She's like, Hmm, lemme think about,
it's not enough wine on the table yet to
:
00:57:38,216 --> 00:57:40,106
decide, like, so I need to put a drunk.
:
00:57:40,436 --> 00:57:43,076
But she's thinking about
it, so why not hostel?
:
00:57:43,136 --> 00:57:44,631
Tell me, John, why you
wouldn't go to a hostel?
:
00:57:45,641 --> 00:57:50,141
John: Oh gosh, I haven't been to a
hostel since, uh, my early twenties.
:
00:57:50,231 --> 00:57:54,551
And, um, I think it's the, one of
the big reasons now why I wouldn't
:
00:57:54,641 --> 00:57:58,631
is, uh, I don't have much, I don't
have a high level of tolerance for
:
00:57:58,631 --> 00:58:00,966
other people the way that I used to.
:
00:58:02,076 --> 00:58:08,496
Susan Ibitz: What if you see it that that
can help you to manage, uh, Vaseline suit?
:
00:58:09,416 --> 00:58:13,076
Meaning that you learn to
ostracize yourself from a
:
00:58:13,076 --> 00:58:15,446
stupidity and actually have fun.
:
00:58:15,536 --> 00:58:17,936
What if we look up, so you
see what I'm doing there?
:
00:58:18,506 --> 00:58:20,576
John: I could see the
I, I see the reframe.
:
00:58:20,576 --> 00:58:20,876
Yeah.
:
00:58:20,876 --> 00:58:22,106
I can definitely see that.
:
00:58:22,376 --> 00:58:25,526
I don't think it's something I
wanna explore, but, but I will look
:
00:58:25,526 --> 00:58:28,676
at other opportunities to go in
the similar path because I think
:
00:58:28,676 --> 00:58:29,571
what, what is your drink of choice?
:
00:58:30,911 --> 00:58:34,241
For me, um, I, it's red wine generally.
:
00:58:34,481 --> 00:58:34,871
Susan Ibitz: Okay.
:
00:58:34,871 --> 00:58:37,811
I'm gonna load it after the second one,
:
00:58:40,631 --> 00:58:42,401
no matter, no matter how
I gonna get you there.
:
00:58:44,921 --> 00:58:47,291
John: That's, that's a different
kind of negotiation, but I like it.
:
00:58:47,741 --> 00:58:50,861
Um, I've really been enjoying this
conversation season and there's so
:
00:58:50,861 --> 00:58:55,091
many areas that we could go into that
are just fascinating and, uh, and
:
00:58:55,091 --> 00:58:59,261
it's really interesting to someone
who has your unique perspectives on
:
00:58:59,261 --> 00:59:00,971
things as well, which is great to hear.
:
00:59:01,631 --> 00:59:06,161
I wonder for, for our listener who
maybe wants to find out more about you
:
00:59:06,161 --> 00:59:10,151
and, and how maybe even to work with
you or learn from you, what would be
:
00:59:10,151 --> 00:59:12,011
the best way for them to, to do that?
:
00:59:12,011 --> 00:59:12,236
Where should they go?
:
00:59:13,241 --> 00:59:15,371
Susan Ibitz: There are two Susan
Ibitz all around the world.
:
00:59:16,181 --> 00:59:18,821
We are both in academia,
but I'm the most exposed.
:
00:59:18,941 --> 00:59:22,061
So I would says Google Susan
ibe, and see what you conquer
:
00:59:22,181 --> 00:59:23,351
and see what stick to you.
:
00:59:23,771 --> 00:59:26,921
I have websites for companies
and research and YouTube.
:
00:59:26,981 --> 00:59:29,801
I'm all over the place,
but I always love to see.
:
00:59:29,981 --> 00:59:32,291
Google Me says That is easy.
:
00:59:32,471 --> 00:59:36,281
Yeah, I wanna see what stick with
you because I'm the same person,
:
00:59:36,311 --> 00:59:37,961
but I have, I'm like an onion.
:
00:59:38,021 --> 00:59:38,951
I have many shades.
:
00:59:40,061 --> 00:59:44,591
I can be a bit, I can be the negotiator,
I can be the interrogator, I can
:
00:59:44,591 --> 00:59:47,561
be the kind, I can be the impact,
I can be the crazy, I can be all
:
00:59:47,561 --> 00:59:51,671
that people that's making me who
I'm, I wanna see what stick to you.
:
00:59:51,911 --> 00:59:55,341
So it would be easy to
test susan ibitz.com.
:
00:59:55,361 --> 00:59:56,861
Yeah, that is what it says.
:
00:59:56,861 --> 00:59:58,211
The website, that corporate.
:
00:59:58,721 --> 00:59:59,951
But let's see what Stick with you.
:
01:00:00,011 --> 01:00:04,481
What are the newsletter is the
videos is the new podcast, irrational
:
01:00:04,481 --> 01:00:06,521
Human, where I talk about like.
:
01:00:07,076 --> 01:00:09,956
I always took stories about
I Russian people that I met,
:
01:00:09,956 --> 01:00:10,946
and I think it's amazing.
:
01:00:11,486 --> 01:00:15,206
Always tell the story, never the
person involved in the story.
:
01:00:15,386 --> 01:00:17,516
Be discrete, remember, but yeah.
:
01:00:17,756 --> 01:00:18,266
Cool me.
:
01:00:18,266 --> 01:00:18,896
See what happens.
:
01:00:19,136 --> 01:00:20,726
You never know what
life is gonna take you.
:
01:00:21,686 --> 01:00:23,216
John: Uh, that's a great point.
:
01:00:23,276 --> 01:00:26,426
Uh, great note on which to
end our conversation today.
:
01:00:26,426 --> 01:00:29,156
Susan, thank you for coming and
being a guest on percent Influence.
:
01:00:29,726 --> 01:00:30,446
Susan Ibitz: Thank you very much.
:
01:00:30,446 --> 01:00:31,526
And again, apologize.
:
01:00:31,526 --> 01:00:33,506
The audience, John is lovely.
:
01:00:33,686 --> 01:00:35,096
He have a patient.
:
01:00:35,096 --> 01:00:38,876
When you says I don't have patient
for people you do, has been really
:
01:00:38,876 --> 01:00:41,096
patient with my cat, you're being doll.
:
01:00:41,096 --> 01:00:44,361
I don't know how the heck you
edit this, but I love you for it.
:
01:00:45,481 --> 01:00:51,361
John: I, I, I am lucky enough to
have very good, um, audio, um, audio
:
01:00:51,506 --> 01:00:55,496
enhancing software that will probably
cut out most of the background.
:
01:00:55,496 --> 01:00:57,896
It's probably not all, but
most of it, but, so it's
:
01:00:57,896 --> 01:01:03,686
Susan Ibitz: Susan i dash responsibility,
dash irresponsible, dash irrational.
:
01:01:04,016 --> 01:01:04,556
Makes sense.
:
01:01:05,831 --> 01:01:07,526
John: It's all good, Susan.
:
01:01:07,526 --> 01:01:08,066
Thank you.
:
01:01:08,071 --> 01:01:08,321
Thanks.
:
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:10,450
in review of this episode,
hopefully you're now at least
:
01:01:10,450 --> 01:01:13,990
feeling ready to negotiate smarter,
read people quicker, and build
:
01:01:13,990 --> 01:01:15,760
real authority without posturing.
:
01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:19,750
If you keep relying on canned lions
or pure logic, you will lose the
:
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:22,000
room to emotion bias and fatigue.
:
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,380
So rewatch and note three moves
to practice this week open with
:
01:01:26,380 --> 01:01:28,720
a genuine me too connection.
:
01:01:29,365 --> 01:01:31,855
State warm plus assertive intent
:
01:01:32,605 --> 01:01:37,195
trade fairly knowing what you can and
cannot put on the table and then test
:
01:01:37,225 --> 01:01:39,655
one tactic in your next call or meeting.
:
01:01:40,205 --> 01:01:43,775
These are the same principles Susan used
in high stakes environments and the top
:
01:01:43,775 --> 01:01:46,775
negotiators use to get durable yeses.
:
01:01:46,985 --> 01:01:48,935
If this helped, make sure
you subscribe to the show.
:
01:01:49,245 --> 01:01:52,605
Drop your biggest takeaway into the
comments or maybe even share this with
:
01:01:52,605 --> 01:01:54,765
a friend who negotiates for a living.
:
01:01:56,385 --> 01:01:58,875
Wherever you're going, whatever
you're doing, have an amazing week.
:
01:01:58,875 --> 01:01:59,560
We'll see you next time.