Episode 176

Empathy as a Learnable Business Skill | Michele Hansen

Mastering Empathy in Business: An Interview with Michele Hansen

In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball interviews Michele Hansen, author of 'Deploy Empathy.'

Michele discusses her journey from the technical side of business to understanding and mastering empathy.

The episode covers how empathy can be a learned skill crucial for business success, even in technical fields like software development.

Michele shares her insights on applying empathy in product management, marketing, and sales, emphasizing the importance of understanding people's contexts.

The conversation explores the unexpected benefits of empathy in building trust and deepening relationships, as well as Michele's experiences and strategies for successful podcasting.

Listeners are encouraged to consider how they can apply empathy in their own professional and personal lives.

00:00 Introduction: The Importance of Empathy in Business

00:17 Meet Michelle Hansen: From Technical Background to Empathy Advocate

02:57 The Journey to Entrepreneurship and Writing a Book

06:01 Understanding Empathy: Michelle's Insights

08:40 Applying Empathy in Business and Beyond

18:29 The Role of Podcasting in Promoting Empathy

26:56 Practical Tips for Developing Empathy

40:57 Conclusion: Embracing Empathy in Professional Life

Transcript
John:

Is empathy important in every aspect of business, even

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in the more technical side?.

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Could we also see empathy as

a skill that could be learned?

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And if so, Should we do that?

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And should we learn to master

empathy so that we can better

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understand people and build trust?

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Well I have with me on this episode an

interview with a lady called Michelle

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Hansen who wrote a pretty amazing book

called Deploy Empathy Now Michelle's

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background has been in the Let's say

more technical side of business, and

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she did at first herself wonder why

empathy would be at all important for her.

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Now Michelle gives us some great

examples in this interview about

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how we need to stay open to growth

and committed to our results.

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So welcome to Present Influence, the

show that helps business leaders develop

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the skills to influence and inspire.

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I'm John Ball, a presentation skills

and keynote coach, professional

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speaker, and your guide on this

journey to leadership level

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communication and presentation skills.

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My mission is to provide business

owners and leaders like you with

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everything you need to maximize your

impact and present with influence.

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Follow the show on your favorite

podcast app for weekly episodes and

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interviews with influence experts.

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So welcome to the show and this interview

was actually recorded a while back

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before the show took its hiatus and

we did have a bit of a stronger focus

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back then On how presentation and

influence skills related to podcasting

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Particularly whether that's being a guest

on people's podcasts or having your own

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show And we do get to talking about that.

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I think it's still relevant to what we

cover now in the show however, we're

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not having such an intensive focus on

it As we might have done back then.

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But there was a lot of quality stuff that

Michelle said in this interview that I

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wanted to make sure that I brought to

you, even if it was a year or so after

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actually having had the conversation with

her, if you are in the more technical side

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of industry, like computer programming

and coding or, The sides of business and

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industry that really don't seem to require

so much human interaction and empathy.

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I think you're going to find

this very interesting as to

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why Michelle thinks you do.

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So let's start off with a little

bit about Michelle's background.

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Michele Hansen: So I am

functionally a product manager.

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That's what I worked as before

I was an entrepreneur full time.

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So I, I like to say that I

am Comfortable with code.

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And I write a little bit of it,

though, not as much as I used to.

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And these days it's just,

Updating some HTML on the

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website or something like that.

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But I'm more someone who's very

comfortable around it, I'm

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married to a developer, both of

my parents are software engineers.

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So it's something I've always

been around and literate in but

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where I really get satisfaction

is building businesses with it.

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And the product side,

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John: With Michelle's

background and experience.

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I was very curious as to how

she ended up taking more of an

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entrepreneurial path in life.

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That led to eventually to

writing a book about empathy.

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Michele Hansen: If we're going

back so my husband is a developer

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and I'm a product person we always

wanted to build things together.

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And Quite frankly it's a very American

answer, but what made us go from talking

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about having projects to actually

launching things and starting to build

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businesses was when we realized just how

expensive daycare was in the U S it's,

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on average, it's about 25, 000 a year for

an infant, which is more expensive than

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public college tuition in most states.

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And we knew it would be expensive.

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We didn't realize it would

be quite that expensive.

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And and so then we're like, all right

we got to start launching stuff.

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We can kill it at work, but we're not

getting raises and bonuses worth, 25, 000.

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In the next six months.

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So we got to do something else.

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And so that's what got

us on the path initially.

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And then once we started building

things, you discover more problems,

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you listen to people you just start

talking to people a lot and seeing

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how people use things and whatnot.

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And that Let us down the path to

creating the product that is our

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business now, which is a geocoding

and data enrichment service.

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It's very nerdy.

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We joke that it's like selling wood

into the software industry because

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everybody needs geographic data.

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Because a computer doesn't

understand an address.

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It only understands latitude

and longitude coordinates.

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And That is at a very basic level what

we help people do for North America.

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And then also add all sorts of data

that you can only get if you have the

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coordinates but that's really what

got us started as having the fire lit

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under us of having some very real life

responsibilities coming up and we went

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from spending our weekends watching

game of thrones to building apps.

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John: So as much as this path was

somewhat born out of necessity.

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I wanted to know was Michelle

happy with this path and the

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journey that she's taken.

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Michele Hansen: Yeah, I, I'm

happy with where my life is now.

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I wouldn't change anything looking back.

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It is insane that, in order to

keep your life at the same level.

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We had to do something like that.

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It's a massive burden for people

for, for parents in the U S and

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that was our way of solving it.

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John: that's a very clever way around

it and now you've solved it even

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further by living in denmark, right?

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Michele Hansen: Yes, though, our

daughter is in elementary school now.

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So it's not as much of a challenge.

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But yes my husband's

originally from Denmark.

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We met in the US though

and he's a US citizen now.

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But when, cOVID hit, we had plans to come

for Denmark, to Denmark for that summer.

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And given how things were going in the

U S and comparing that to how things

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were going in Denmark, we were like,

you know what, if we can get to Denmark,

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we should stay there for a while.

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That seems like a good decision.

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And yeah, we ended up moving here in 2020.

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John: And this all seemed like a

bit of an unlikely path to taking

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somebody, to writing, ultimately

writing a book about empathy.

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So I wanted to know from Michelle

where she first realized that

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empathy was important and what

led her to writing the book.

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Michele Hansen: Yeah, it is

sometimes funny for somebody

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like me who runs a company that,

functionally we sell data, right?

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To be such an advocate of

qualitative data as well.

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It's sometimes a surprise to people.

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When I first started building products, I

very much went about it in the traditional

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way of, this is what leadership says

we should build, we'll do some, broader

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level market research, looking at reports,

we'll look at competition, we'll look at

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data that we have, all right, leadership

says this is an opportunity this data

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we've looked at impersonal data we've

looked at, says it's an opportunity,

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let's go off and build things.

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And the problem was after several years

of doing that at different companies got

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really frustrated when you're looking

at all this data and trying to get

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metrics to move and they just don't or

worse, they go in the wrong direction.

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And it took me a long time to

understand that a spreadsheet of

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data will tell you what is happening,

but it will never tell you why.

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Only people can tell you why, and only

people can tell you why they go through

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certain processes, why they're doing

certain things, and in turn, give you

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the insight to figure out how you could

build something that helps them do that

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faster, cheaper, or easier, which is what

makes them switch to a different product.

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And so it was that level of context

that I really wasn't getting from

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doing product development that was

driven only by quantitative data.

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And I'm incredibly grateful to have had

the opportunity to work with a group of

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coworkers who really helped me understand

how to collect qualitative data In

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a sound and structured way and then to

combine that with quantitative data.

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And that's really when I started seeing

my products perform a lot better.

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And that is how I got

on this path to empathy.

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And I wrote the book from that perspective

of someone who doesn't come from that

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perspective by default, so to speak.

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And that's very much the reader I'm

writing to is in many ways the first sort

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of reader I was Thinking of as this is my

sort of core community is, developers who

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have become founders who again, are very

used to working with quantitative data,

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but getting out and talking to people that

seems both scary and like a waste of time.

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And yet people launch things

that, launched to crickets and

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no one uses them and that hurts.

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And so this is my way of

helping them solve that.

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Okay.

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John: Which is great.

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And what's interesting with that is this

is clearly an important area for people

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to be paying attention to for businesses,

especially those who may not have really

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had any thoughts along that sort of side

of looking at emotional decisions and

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and having that empathetic connection.

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You say in your book that empathy

is something that can be learned.

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And so maybe you can tell us that,

at least in the context of the

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book how defining empathy and how

someone could go about learning that.

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Michele Hansen: Right there.

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The word empathy and

sympathy and compassion.

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Those are sometimes used interchangeably,

but they mean different things.

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Empathy and quoting, design

strategist Indie Young here who has

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written several fantastic books.

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Empathy is about understanding how another

person thinks and acknowledging their

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reasoning and emotions as valid, even if

they differ from your own understanding.

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And so it doesn't necessarily

mean feeling bad for someone.

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It doesn't mean thinking

someone else is right.

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Really, another way to say empathy

is context, understanding the context

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of why someone does something.

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And even if you would do it differently,

or you think the process they're going

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through is completely ridiculous, right?

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Understanding that there are reasons

for why they're doing what they do

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and reasons for why they are currently

doing it in the way that they do it.

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And it is only through understanding

that context that you can help them

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change their behavior and changing

their behavior might mean changing to

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use a different product or changing

to hire you as their consultant.

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Those are all changes in behavior

and people 1st need to feel seen

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and understood, but they don't

need to feel agreed with and.

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That in many ways is the core of empathy

is seeing what other people are doing as

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valid and sensical from their perspective.

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And then using that to what

you want to build or sell.

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John: this is fascinating and

I had never really had empathy

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talks about in this sort of way.

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Of just having it as a tool to be able to

understand other people's perspectives.

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We did talk a little more about this.

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And one of the things that was coming

up for me was recognizing how this was

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potentially giving you a great groundwork.

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to start developing deeper levels

of trust with people when you

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are intentionally looking at

things from their point of view.

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Think about perhaps a book, like

Never Split The Difference from Chris

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Voss, where he talks about utilizing

tactical empathy to help gain trust

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and open people up in negotiations.

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Similarly, Michelle was using

it to gain information from

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people that was really relevant to

the data that she was collating.

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Michele Hansen: Yeah, there's

some fascinating studies where

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they have put people under fMRI

machines and analyze them having

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conversations with other people.

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And when people talk about their own

experiences, parts of the brain related

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to pleasure and enjoyment light up versus

when they listen to someone else talk

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about their experiences, they don't.

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And this applies whether

you're hearing someone.

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tell you something about their

life or their process for

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submitting invoices every day.

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Those are their experiences and they

associate those feelings of enjoyment

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with the person that they are talking to.

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And as you said, that is a powerful

way to build trust with someone.

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John: So really what

Michelle said that was huge.

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That people take pleasure in talking

about themselves and answering questions.

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And this is a layer of developing trust

with people and deepening your connection.

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If you ever look at a book like Super

Communicators by Charles Duhigg,

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there are some big similarities

in how people deepen relationships

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and become more remembered by the

kinds of questions that they ask.

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And those generally are the kinds of

questions that develop more connection.

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Michele Hansen: The type of interviewing

I talk about in, in my book is

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intended to be you're trying to figure

out a Understand a business problem

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in a business context for them.

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But there are a lot of directions this

field goes in and you mentioned trying to

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convince someone of something, that field

is known as motivational interviewing,

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which was developed to understand why

parents might be hesitant about vaccines

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so that medical practitioners can help

understand those underlying reasons.

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Validate those underlying reasons,

but then show them that those

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underlying reasons are actually a

reason for them to choose vaccines

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rather than to not choose vaccines.

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And so in that kind of an interview,

there is a very clear Outcome that

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the interviewer is hoping to get to

in terms of convincing the person

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And but again it's using the same

tactics of empathy of understanding.

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What is this person's context?

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What is their experience that has

led them to make the decisions

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and do the actions, that they do.

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And then once that person feels seen

and like their context is valid, then

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they're open to doing something else and

they trust the person they're talking to.

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John: So once again, this is huge and

an, a show that's has a lot to do with

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understanding, influence and persuasion.

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To know that motivational questioning

has been a tool that has been

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used in helping people overcome

vaccine hesitancy and resistance.

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The help get them to see the benefits

of vaccines where other forms of

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conversation and persuasion haven't

been working, then maybe we should

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sit up and pay some attention.

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But how did Michelle, someone

who openly says empathy was not

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a natural thing for her, come to

develop that sense of empathy and

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understanding that she wanted to create?

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Michele Hansen: There's 2 answers there.

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The 1st 1 is that I was.

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So fortunate to work with a

group of coworkers who They

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come from the UX side of things.

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And so really understanding people and

their behavior and then how that can be

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translated into design is their specialty.

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And so I was fortunate enough to learn

under, a seasoned design leader as well as

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someone who effectively has a PhD in this.

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And so it was months of observing

them and how they did interviews

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and just being a silent participant

that was my introduction and

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slowly moved into being part of

the interview myself and eventually

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running them entirely on my own.

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That was really how I learned

these tactics over thousands and

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thousands of interviews and reading

books and observing other people.

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For me as someone who Learned

empathy later in life, because it

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is something that anyone can learn.

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Really that was therapy that, that

taught me that the most effective

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way to understand and learn

empathy is to be shown it yourself.

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And for many people, a therapist

is a fantastic introduction to

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being treated with empathy.

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As I was writing my book, knowing that

I could not give my readers, either

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the experience of of sitting next to

someone who has a PhD in this, or the

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experience of talking to a therapist,

it was important to me to speak to

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the reader with empathy so that they

could get a sense for how that feels,

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as they were reading the book and

so the book is not written from

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the perspective of this is how you

should already be doing things.

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You should already know

how to use empathy.

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This is, this, you have to know this.

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Otherwise you're doing everything wrong.

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It's not.

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It's instead written as.

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It makes sense that you don't know how

to do this and that you're worried.

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It's going to be a waste of time.

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John: For me, this is one of the most

profound moments of our conversation,

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where Michelle said that one of the

best ways to understand the empathy

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is to experience it for yourself.

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And how that led her to taking an

empathic approach to writing her book.

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To be more understood by other people.

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So we can have a great intentionality

about providing empathy.

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And I wonder for any of us, whether

we can think of a situation in our

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day or our week ahead, where we

might be able to apply a little bit

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more empathy and show it to others.

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And maybe even look especially for those

moments where others are showing it to us.

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Have you had much feedback from

people outside of the sort of industry

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that you aimed the book at is that

they've got benefit from this as well?

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Michele Hansen: It's

been quite surprising.

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As I mentioned the book came

out of my founder community and,

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specifically, advising other

entrepreneurs in this space and.

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That was very much who I

thought the audience was.

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And then the book went out and

those people started telling their

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friends about the book and whatnot.

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And I've had real estate agents reach

out to me and architects and all sorts

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of different professions that I really

didn't even think about or realized when

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I was writing the book that would be

using this it's been quite surprising.

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John: Well, let's say that was no

surprise to me having read Michelle's

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book and, understanding how applicable

it could be to so many people in

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so many different situations.

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That even as s someone who I feel

has a good understanding of empathy

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and applications for empathy, that

I learned some new things that I

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felt made it a very worthwhile read.

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Now I mentioned earlier that the show has

somewhat moved away from focusing on the

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podcast, guesting and hosting as a source

of presentation skills and influence.

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Not completely though.

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And

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I did want to find out from

Michele how podcast, guesting

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and hosting had benefited her.

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And also maybe been a part of

this book, writing process.

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Michele Hansen: I host my own

podcast, which is currently on

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hiatus but we had a weekly episode

for two and a half years and.

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In the podcast itself one of

our arcs was me writing the book

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which is the spring of 2021.

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And so I was writing the book and

talking about it as I was doing that.

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And what I learned through that is

that made people who were listening

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become champions of the book.

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And it really surprised me But the fact

that we had this weekly relationship where

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they were used to hearing from me and I

was used to hearing from them on, Twitter

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and whatnot you feel like friends and they

became incredible support of the book.

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And I think that was because they

were, Hearing my voice every week and

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hearing me talk about how it was going,

and sometimes it wasn't going well.

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Sometimes I was quite frustrated.

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And that made them really rooting

for me and it was very moving.

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And then, I released the book in the

summer of:

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still in a elevated state at that point.

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And so I many authors do a book tour

and I ended up doing a podcast book

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tour instead of going to speak on

other people's shows as a guest.

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And so largely the way I have promoted

the book is probably 80 percent

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of that has been podcasting both

through my own show and by being a

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guest on over 20 shows at this point.

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John: Yeah.

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And did you find that was ended

up being beneficial to your sales?

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Michele Hansen: Yes, actually I was just

looking at the numbers the other day

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and last year, really, the only thing

I did maybe 2 or 3 talks last year and

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a couple of workshops, but largely what

I did was those podcast appearances and

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the sales for last year exceeded the

sales for:

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by because I thought the launch was

it was going to be the highest point

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on the revenue graph, so to speak.

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And I think that really speaks

to not only the relationship

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that you build with people.

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When they're listening to you on a

podcast, but also the longevity of

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that, because it's very common for

people to go and listen through a

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whole catalog or recommend a show,

even if it was an episode, if it was,

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six months or a year or two years

ago, I'm quite surprised by that.

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And I think the format is very

helpful for building relationships

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and also for building a longer

term Funnel of of buyers.

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John: One of the things we got to talking

about was the evergreen nature of podcasts

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and how an interview that you may be

did a year or even two years or more

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ago may end up getting listened to by

somebody because people will often go

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through the back catalog of episodes of

shows that they like and that they find.

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And listen to the interviews that

they're particularly interested in.

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And so I was curious to know from

Michele, what her experience had

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been like pitching for these shows.

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And whether she was able

to employ some of her

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empathy skills in being able to do that.

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Michele Hansen: I think I maybe

only pitched myself personally.

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Two maybe 3 times and those were

hosts that I already had some

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amount of a relationship with.

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I didn't do any cold pitching,

which I know as a host myself.

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I get so many cold pitches.

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And I don't think I've

ever accepted any of them.

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But when you do have a relationship

with someone, even if it's just,

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you follow each other on Twitter

and you're used to seeing their

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updates, interacting with them.

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That is much more likely

to be received warmly.

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And also when you can speak

to their audience and for you,

357

:

people listening here now.

358

:

Using this empathy is useful both with

your customers, but also when you are

359

:

trying to promote your business as

well, because if you can, first build

360

:

that relationship and then second, say

something and, tell the host that you have

361

:

something to say that is relevant to their

audience, because it's not about you.

362

:

It's about the audience, right?

363

:

And so that's incredibly helpful.

364

:

John: Well, I could only really agree

with Michelle on that and say I've

365

:

had very similar experiences myself.

366

:

And I think this is one of the

things that we hear more and more.

367

:

And I've had episodes that have

talked about relationship marketing

368

:

and relationship development.

369

:

And how things are really accelerated

in that area since COVID ended.

370

:

And unsurprisingly, perhaps.

371

:

Because things were already

heading in that way.

372

:

And then they very much got accelerated.

373

:

When people wanted to start being able

to get together and connect again with

374

:

each other relationship have become

so important, especially in markets

375

:

where people have tendencies to maybe

be a little showy and superficial

376

:

making those real connections.

377

:

And getting personal recommendations.

378

:

Is incredibly valuable and we should

all look to do a little more of it.

379

:

So how's Michelle's work on empathy.

380

:

Been helpful to her in being a

guest on other people's podcasts.

381

:

Michele Hansen: Yeah.

382

:

When I'm a guest on someone's show,

each one of them is different because

383

:

it depends on who I'm talking to.

384

:

And I do have a playlist on Spotify of

all of the book tour stops, the episode

385

:

I do for the inner indie hackers podcast,

for example, which is developers who want

386

:

to start their own software business.

387

:

That's a very different conversation.

388

:

Than one when I'm speaking, for example,

directly to product managers, right?

389

:

They're learning this

for different reasons.

390

:

They're applying it in different ways.

391

:

They're coming from different backgrounds.

392

:

You mentioned that you have a lot of

coaches and consultants who listen.

393

:

Many of those people are naturally

empathetic and they naturally know how

394

:

to use these skills when talking to their

clients, applying them in marketing.

395

:

Can be another step though, and a

different set of skill set and saying,

396

:

how do I take this conversation

that I had with someone as their

397

:

mentor or as their coach and then

use that in a way for marketing.

398

:

So it's always a different conversation

and I think that's something that, that.

399

:

I enjoy about having written

this is that it is so applicable

400

:

in so many different contexts.

401

:

I think there's a valid criticism of

advice from successful founders, which

402

:

is that nine times out of ten Those

people happen to get lucky and what

403

:

they did works in their situation and

their context and is not necessarily

404

:

applicable to everyone else's context.

405

:

Especially if we're not working

with, I don't know, 100Million

406

:

dollars in venture funding, right?

407

:

And so I am reticent to give

advice as a founder, unless it is

408

:

somewhere where I feel like I have a.

409

:

A genuine expertise that can be applied

to different types of businesses.

410

:

There's a lot of things I've

learned in my business that probably

411

:

don't apply in every context.

412

:

But this is one of those things that

I saw time and time again in my own

413

:

experience as a product manager.

414

:

And then as I have worked with other

founders that it can turn things around

415

:

for them and help them go from launching

things that, that You know, the, that

416

:

weren't successful to pivoting them

or being able to go into a different

417

:

market by having the tools to understand

people in a very structured way.

418

:

John: So I really loved Michelle's

answer there that even if we are

419

:

naturally good at empathy, which

I thought coaches and speakers and

420

:

consultants and people who are in

positions that are more person to person.

421

:

That we did tend to have more

natural ability with empathy.

422

:

However, that doesn't mean that

we can effectively apply it in all

423

:

areas, such as sales or marketing.

424

:

Very often, we are trying to copy what

we think we should be doing in sales and

425

:

marketing, rather than putting empathy.

426

:

Into those interactions.

427

:

So marketing and sales.

428

:

It could look very different.

429

:

One thing that really struck me in the

conversation with Michelle as well was

430

:

how committed she was to learning and

that she really was prepared to put in

431

:

the time to get what she needed to get

and learn in a way that was effective.

432

:

So, so I asked her what

that experience was like.

433

:

Michele Hansen: Was probably sitting

in the room for about three to six

434

:

months, not interviewing myself.

435

:

And I think it was only around the

point where I had done over a hundred

436

:

interviews that I felt like I.

437

:

Had a feel for it.

438

:

And now it's only at this point

after done having done thousands

439

:

of these that I don't go in with a

script and an outline for each one.

440

:

So it does take time even for people

who naturally have an inclination

441

:

towards this, and I think your point

around being applied in different

442

:

context is so true and so important.

443

:

For example It's important that if

you're in a sales setting, that you

444

:

don't dive to the level of, emotion

that you might in a situation where

445

:

someone is already a customer or someone

you're already working with, right?

446

:

Because we can't talk about empathy

without talking about boundaries,

447

:

both for ourself and for other people.

448

:

In a coaching context, it's important

that you don't on too much of

449

:

the other person's pain, right?

450

:

Because You're understanding them to help

them, but you need to still have sort of

451

:

protection over your own internal life.

452

:

And as it relates to boundaries and

sales, it's inappropriate to dive

453

:

too deeply emotionally with someone.

454

:

In a sales context, because for many

people, that's when we feel like we're

455

:

about to get scammed by something, right?

456

:

Because we're being

asked to share too much.

457

:

You can still dive on, social context and

functional context and getting a sense

458

:

for, Oh, this is really annoying for you.

459

:

But not diving quite to the same level.

460

:

And so it's important to apply

different skills in different

461

:

contexts as they're appropriate.

462

:

And that's something I attempted to do.

463

:

But that point on.

464

:

Sales is not interviewing

and is not customer support.

465

:

Those are, you have to have a different

mindset for each one of those things

466

:

is something I get into in the book.

467

:

John: And I could hardly begin

to tell you the amount of times

468

:

that this comes up as an issue in

other podcasts and conversations.

469

:

About people trying to create too

much report in certain and situations

470

:

where it's not really appropriate.

471

:

And as Michelle rightly says, you

might end up feeling a little sleazy,

472

:

a bit scammed in those kinds of

situations, you have to look at what's

473

:

appropriate and it's different levels,

different levels of rapport, different

474

:

levels of connection and empathy,

according to different situations

475

:

you also have to really

admire Michelle's commitment.

476

:

To making this happen or how long

she was observing before she even put

477

:

herself into an interview situation

and then really committed herself to

478

:

practicing her art and getting this.

479

:

Now I could say I've had similar

situations in roles I've been in before.

480

:

This is really the steps to mastery.

481

:

We go from unconscious incompetence

through to conscious incompetence,

482

:

conscious competence and then

unconscious competence and beyond

483

:

to levels of mastery, hopefully.

484

:

But we have to get through

those initial levels.

485

:

We have to get an initial competence

first and that can take a long time.

486

:

And that's where most people

really struggle in this area.

487

:

Also amazing that Michelle brings up

boundaries and how essential it is to

488

:

have boundaries in your relationships

and interactions with other people.

489

:

Unfortunately, that's one of the

things that sometimes does get missed

490

:

off when we're in situations where

we think we're supposed to be acting

491

:

or behaving a certain way that we

are no longer running on our natural

492

:

intuition and our natural empathy.

493

:

So

494

:

what else can we learn

about applying empathy here?

495

:

Michele Hansen: It's important not to hold

us back before we feel that we're perfect.

496

:

And if we find ourselves

feeling that way, this is when.

497

:

Exercising self empathy is important

and to say, okay, you know what?

498

:

It makes sense that I

feel like I have to be.

499

:

An expert at this before I do it based

on experiences I've had, maybe that's

500

:

mentors in your life or, you had a

particularly demanding sports coach

501

:

when you were growing up or other adult

figure who expected perfection of you.

502

:

So you came to expect that of yourself

exercising self empathy, understanding

503

:

your own context for why you hold

yourself back is an important first step.

504

:

And that empathy is not saying.

505

:

I'm a perfectionist.

506

:

I really have to get over it.

507

:

It's I'm a perfectionist and given

what I've gone through it makes sense

508

:

that I am and then that is what unlocks

you to be able to learn that new thing

509

:

and Starting with a practice exercise

is always helpful I have one in the

510

:

book and it's something that you

can do with a co worker or a friend

511

:

and recording those

interviews you do as well.

512

:

I tell people to start with the practice

exercise and then start with five people

513

:

for interviewing and get permission to

record them and then listen back to them.

514

:

And then those are the times when I've

noticed myself and also people coming

515

:

back to me saying, wow, I didn't realize

how much as I was interrupting people

516

:

or how much I was doing this or how much

I was doing that, or wow, wait, I said

517

:

this Question I ask all the time, but in

this slightly different, more gentle tone

518

:

of voice and they talked for 10 minutes

about that versus normally I get a 1

519

:

sentence answer like that was interesting.

520

:

And so really looking back.

521

:

And listening to yourself is such an

effective way to, to learn and to speed

522

:

up that learning process if you are

feeling eager to learn this quickly.

523

:

John: I get to listen to myself a lot.

524

:

You may well do yourself being a podcaster

you often will play back your episodes

525

:

and you end up picking up the things that

that you do and the way that you speak.

526

:

And you notice, you'll notice those

things very much when you play back

527

:

conversations that you've had with people.

528

:

I think it's definitely a good

practice to have and some great advice.

529

:

Empathy side of things.

530

:

Really fascinating.

531

:

This has been a really

wonderful conversation.

532

:

I do want to come back

to podcasting somewhat.

533

:

What came first for you being a guest

on a podcast or having your own show?

534

:

Michele Hansen: Being a

guest on a show long had An

535

:

interest in, in, in podcasting.

536

:

Actually in high school, I was a DJ on my

high school and college radio stations.

537

:

So I loved the radio format, but

actually stopped doing it in college

538

:

because I was like Radio is dying.

539

:

I should really focus on things I

could actually get a job in and then.

540

:

As an adult, I became a podcaster.

541

:

So that was quite fun.

542

:

But I started out with

podcasts, just being a guest.

543

:

And those were all situations where

someone had either recommended me

544

:

or the host had reached out to me.

545

:

And what helped in getting those sort

of inbound inquiries was starting

546

:

to put out written content on

What I was thinking, what I had to

547

:

say, starting to write about that.

548

:

Because it's one thing to say that

you have something to say, and then it

549

:

is another thing to actually say it.

550

:

And then when you have something that

can be referenced, that people have

551

:

already started sharing, that maybe

a host has come across that makes it

552

:

much more compelling for people to

have you on But really it was when I

553

:

started being a host myself that people

within my community started to really

554

:

light up about what I was saying.

555

:

And I don't think I would have

been able to be a guest on so many

556

:

podcasts had I not had my own show.

557

:

Now my show was weekly People don't

have to have a weekly show, but even

558

:

if you have a monthly show where it's

you and, if you're a coach and you're

559

:

trying to convince people that you're

able to help other people and understand

560

:

them and help them make change, there's

no better way to do that than to show

561

:

them and to have these living examples

of that in the form of a podcast.

562

:

So wherever you can, it's helpful

to both have been a guest you.

563

:

But also to have your show

own show in some capacity and

564

:

it doesn't have to be weekly.

565

:

It doesn't have to be an hour.

566

:

I know people who have a weekly show,

but they actually record it once a

567

:

month and each episode is 15 minutes.

568

:

So there are really low

lift ways to do podcasting.

569

:

But again as you've said previously,

it's such an effective way to build

570

:

a relationship with someone because

you're listening to someone as you're

571

:

walking your dog or you're doing the

dishes or you're driving to the grocery

572

:

store, it starts to almost feel like

a friend and it starts to feel like

573

:

someone that you're That you have this

sort of this fondness for and there's

574

:

something really unique about hearing

someone's voice and even if you only

575

:

have a couple dozen, a couple hundred

people listening, those people will.

576

:

Start to appreciate you more than perhaps

if they had just certainly that if they

577

:

had just seen an ad or read something,

it really builds a relationship in

578

:

this very special and very unique way.

579

:

And it is worth investing

the time in podcasting.

580

:

My book certainly would not have had the

success it has had without podcasting.

581

:

I can say that for sure.

582

:

John: It's a positioning relationship

building trust generating, being that

583

:

voice in somebody's air as a trusted

advisor, there's so many powerful reasons.

584

:

To be involved in podcasting, even if

it's not with your own show, but if

585

:

it is, you know, again, some easier

ways of doing it that don't require

586

:

you to be putting out several hour

long episodes every week or twice a

587

:

week, you can do a much simpler way.

588

:

And make it work for you.

589

:

I'm reminds me of one of my friends,

Bob Gentle says about how he values his

590

:

show, whether it has big listenership or

not because of the positioning that is

591

:

able to give him in the industry and the

way it allows him to be able to connect

592

:

with industry thought leaders and voices.

593

:

That he might not have

been able to before.

594

:

And the level of trust that

somebody's checking you out can

595

:

see that you are genuinely an

expert in the area that you're in.

596

:

I wonderrd if Michelle, if there had been

any unexpected benefits to podcasting.

597

:

Michele Hansen: An unexpected benefit,

I think, I think for me, we talk a

598

:

lot about The parasocial relationship

of podcasting where the person

599

:

listening gets to know you and they

start to feel like they trust you.

600

:

And for me, the word, the word

parasocial is often applied

601

:

to like celebrity context.

602

:

But for me, it's we almost need

a different word for it because

603

:

I have found that I also feel

like I know my listeners too.

604

:

Like I was at a conference this

summer and somebody who listens to

605

:

my show messaged me that they were

there and they wanted to meet up.

606

:

And it was the funniest thing because

I sat down and I started talking to

607

:

them and I was like, wait a minute.

608

:

They already know what's going on

with me, in my business life, right?

609

:

Like we're not starting with hi,

I'm so and this is where I live.

610

:

Like it was like, you just.

611

:

Go into it right away.

612

:

And I felt so comfortable with them

and like we were already friends, even

613

:

though they had been the one listening

to me and I had actually never met them.

614

:

It was really surprising to me that I

got that social benefit out of it too.

615

:

And I have to say the nicest thing

is, I am an extroverted person, but

616

:

when I walk into a conference or

a room full of people and I don't

617

:

know anybody, I stick to the wall.

618

:

It's very intimidating for me.

619

:

And so for me, having been a guest

and having my own show, the, yes

620

:

there's business benefits to that.

621

:

There's, I've earned money from

selling books through that, right?

622

:

But the biggest benefit

is that I walk into.

623

:

a room in a conference or

something and there's at least

624

:

one person who already knows me.

625

:

I already have one person to talk to

and then I start talking to that person

626

:

and then it's easier for somebody else

to join our conversation or for them

627

:

to introduce me to someone else, right?

628

:

Like it, like just knowing one

person in the room is so powerful

629

:

and and that's been great.

630

:

And I really didn't appreciate.

631

:

How much of an effect that would

have, I knew it would have some, but

632

:

it was, but it's been really great.

633

:

Because you are building those

relationships through podcasting,

634

:

just, I think, in a way that with

writing and I say this as a writer it

635

:

doesn't build the relationship quite

in the same way build that level of

636

:

sort of personal comfort with people.

637

:

John: And what a wonderful

unexpected benefit.

638

:

Not only does she get to feel that

her audience they're getting to know

639

:

her better, but that she is getting to

understand them, know her own audience.

640

:

In a way that she might not have before.

641

:

Now at the time of recording,

Michelle was having something

642

:

of a break from her podcast.

643

:

So we had a bit of a chat about

that and whether she plans.

644

:

To make a return.

645

:

Michele Hansen: So I'm describing

myself right now as hibernating.

646

:

But we We will be back.

647

:

And because, we've felt that community

and everyone tells us they miss us,

648

:

which I think still surprises us

because we expected it to just be

649

:

our husband's pity listening to us.

650

:

And then it would go away after a month.

651

:

I think that's what everyone

thought going into it.

652

:

And then.

653

:

Then we recorded an episode every

week for two and a half years of

654

:

in a blink and we're like, you know

what that's a very good track record

655

:

of not missing a week for two and a

half years, even through holidays.

656

:

And maybe we've Earned a

bit of a break from that.

657

:

John: I hope it does come back for

anyone who wants to check out your

658

:

podcast, the episodes that are available.

659

:

What's the name of your show?

660

:

Michele Hansen: That's Software Social.

661

:

And you can find it wherever

you get your podcasts.

662

:

And also at softwaresocial.

663

:

dev.

664

:

John: I genuinely think there

is so many lessons to get from

665

:

Michelle book Deploy Empathy.

666

:

And I would encourage you to go

and check out her podcast as well.

667

:

Before we finished up, I asked Michelle

what advice she might give to herself at

668

:

the start of her journey or for someone

who was just getting started themselves?

669

:

Michele Hansen: Being in business

and being in life really, but it

670

:

means learning new things constantly

and constantly finding out that

671

:

what you thought a year ago was

incomplete or wrong, or looking back

672

:

and saying, God, me, if two years

ago was an idiot and I think I wish

673

:

I had known then that It's okay to be

intimidated by learning new things.

674

:

It's okay to be intimidated when

it feels like everybody else has

675

:

something figured out and you don't.

676

:

It's okay to feel that way and if

you just start picking away at it

677

:

and learning where you can, the

important thing is not knowing, it's

678

:

learning and continuing to learn.

679

:

And I wish I had known that sooner.

680

:

John: I think that's a great

point to end the show on.

681

:

Michele, thank you so much for

coming on Present Influence

682

:

.

Michele Hansen: Thank you for having me.

683

:

John: Well, despite the show having

been sat in the computer memory here

684

:

for a year or so, I think you'll agree.

685

:

It was worth bringing you the

results of that interview.

686

:

Some great insights from Michelle

and some great encouragement as well

687

:

for whatever industry you're in.

688

:

Maybe there's ways that you can apply

empathy that you are not currently doing.

689

:

So.

690

:

And if that's something you have

maybe struggled with, I don't know

691

:

much about pick up a copy of Deploy

Empathy from Michelle and learn how

692

:

to apply empathy into your own life.

693

:

And into your own professional

life, particularly.

694

:

Now we'll be back with more episodes

of Present Influence, a mix of solo

695

:

shows, guests more guest interviews.

696

:

There's still a few in the banks, as well

as some new interviews coming through.

697

:

And some book reviews from time to

time as well because, oh, I love them.

698

:

And I'm hoping you do too.

699

:

I'd love to hear any feedback

you have on the show.

700

:

So you can always get in touch with me.

701

:

Probably the best place to find

me is on LinkedIn articles.

702

:

I think if you're listening on Spotify,

you can leave messages or comments

703

:

on the show and you can certainly

leave us a review on Apple Podcasts.

704

:

If you'd like to give us good stuff

there, if you've listened this far,

705

:

hopefully you've enjoyed the episode and

wherever you're going, whatever you're

706

:

doing, have an amazing rest of your week.

707

:

See you next time.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence
The podcast that helps professional communicators learn the skills that increase influence, impact and authority.

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About your host

Profile picture for John Ball

John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.

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